Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?

[LukaTheGOAT]

guess that's fair.

To elaborate a bit more on why volume can matter I think Miller is a guy that defenses could keep from getting the ball in a way it was harder to do with other guys. Which not only means he shoots less but it means other guys have to take those shots that you might not want shooting as much in big games. So I think it is a bit of a weakness with Reggie. With Bird you could give him the ball at almost any time and he could shoot it if he wanted to.

I actually think Bird kind of has a problem you mentioned for Miller, which is that he couldn't always generate efficient shots when he did shoot. He wasn't great finishing at the rim, couldn't always beat the more disciplined elite defenders off the dribble, and his handle wasn't super advanced. He didn't get to the freethrow line a lot because of this. I think Reggie's off-ball movement is faster and more sharp, while also being able to draw fouls more through guile.

[Cavsfansince84]

I actually think Bird kind of has a problem you mentioned for Miller, which is that he couldn't always generate efficient shots when he did shoot. He wasn't great finishing at the rim, couldn't always beat the more disciplined elite defenders off the dribble, and his handle wasn't super advanced. He didn't get to the freethrow line a lot because of this. I think Reggie's off-ball movement is faster and more sharp, while also being able to draw fouls more through guile.

Reggie was crafty at drawing fouls but I'd still say Bird was a guy you could just give the ball to and expect to get a pretty good shot from. He showed this ability over and over again. Reggie needed time to get open and sometimes by then someone else had shot the ball or he ran out of time. Something else with Bird is teams had to respect how well he could pass out of a double team.

[tsherkin]

He wasn't great finishing at the rim,

Tracking data to support? He was a 50.9% 2FG shooter and while he was a good jump shooter, that's a 40-45% shot when you're good at it.

couldn't always beat the more disciplined elite defenders off the dribble,

Yeah but he posted a lot instead of attacking from above the arc. It wasn't really necessary for him to beat them off the dribble in the style you're mentioning because he would use his size instead.

I think Reggie's off-ball movement is faster and more sharp, while also being able to draw fouls more through guile.

Bird did all kinds of off-ball movement. He routinely took advantage of screens to move around. Respect to Reggie, but also don't forget to mention that he was an early-model hooker paid in drawn BS fouls. He was very, very good at exploiting the refs with nonsense. Like Old Mailman, and Old Jordan, he was very good at somehow selling that he was getting fouled on fadeaways when he kicked the defender, among other things. He was legitimately quite good, but he also milked moves like that for everything they were worth, ala Kobe and the rip-through.

[falcolombardi]

He wasn't great finishing at the rim,

Tracking data to support? He was a 50.9% 2FG shooter and while he was a good jump shooter, that's a 40-45% shot when you're good at it.

couldn't always beat the more disciplined elite defenders off the dribble,

Yeah but he posted a lot instead of attacking from above the arc. It wasn't really necessary for him to beat them off the dribble in the style you're mentioning because he would use his size instead.

I think Reggie's off-ball movement is faster and more sharp, while also being able to draw fouls more through guile.

Bird did all kinds of off-ball movement. He routinely took advantage of screens to move around. Respect to Reggie, but also don't forget to mention that he was an early-model hooker paid in drawn BS fouls. He was very, very good at exploiting the refs with nonsense. Like Old Mailman, and Old Jordan, he was very good at somehow selling that he was getting fouled on fadeaways when he kicked the defender, among other things. He was legitimately quite good, but he also milked moves like that for everything they were worth, ala Kobe and the rip-through.

As much as we can hate it....selling contact/flopping is part of the game as much as refs will call it

We have to judge players om what they did with the reffing of the time, for better or worse and unfair as it is for those who got less friendly whistles

[tsherkin]

As much as we can hate it....selling contact/flopping is part of the game as much as refs will call it

Yes. And Reggie was good at it. Unlike, say, James Harden, it wasn't like a foundational block to his whole game, of course. Reggie was a skilled player who competed hard. And some of my venom is surely from him being on a team I wasn't rooting for, heh. But anyway, more my point was that Reggie was specifically proficient in selling contact and drawing fouls. It didn't have to do with the fact that he was an off-ball guy, because Bird was also an off-ball guy a lot of the time.

[rk2023]

Hard for me to say, but there's a decent amount. When healthy, I believe Bird demonstrated some great scoring abilities (84 and 86 postseasons, 87 and 88 regular seasons pre bone spurs).

As a floor spacer, he was ultra-ahead of his time and his scoring arsenal came from almost every range on the floor. Having tracking data would be very cool - as he's had some 50/40/90 seasons, has cracked above 7% relative true shooting, and on film has a very stellar mid-range and post scoring profile.

With all of that considered, his lack of a dynamic handle compared to all-time great perimeter players and lack of attacking the basket held his scoring back in his prime.

I would probably have him fringe T20, behind the likes of (in no order):

Curry West Oscar
Jordan Kobe Wade Harden
LBJ Durant Kawhi Gervin Baylor
Dirk Barkley
Kareem Shaq Wilt Hakeem Jokic

I could be forgetting someone, but would feel pretty confidently on those players. That, however, doesn't sell Bird short offensively - as his passing and decision making made him a phenomenal creator, he was (once again) ahead of his time as spacing the floor to open up opportunities for others, and he was a tuned in rebounder on the offensive ends. I think that Swiss army knife bag of tricks led Bird to captain some of the best offensive units of all time in the regular and post season(s).

[ceoofkobefans]

Off the dome

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Kd
Steph
West
Dirk
Harden
Wilt
Wade
Reggie
KM
Kawhi
Gervin
Hakeem
Bob McAdoo
TMac
Melo
Dr J
Oscar
AI
Chuck
Elgin
Bernard king
Paul Pierce
Chuck
Jokic
Embiid
Luka

Are all guys I’m at least putting on the same tier as bird might be a few more guys I’m forgetting

[LukaTheGOAT]

He wasn't great finishing at the rim,

Tracking data to support? He was a 50.9% 2FG shooter and while he was a good jump shooter, that's a 40-45% shot when you're good at it.

couldn't always beat the more disciplined elite defenders off the dribble,

Yeah but he posted a lot instead of attacking from above the arc. It wasn't really necessary for him to beat them off the dribble in the style you're mentioning because he would use his size instead.

I think Reggie's off-ball movement is faster and more sharp, while also being able to draw fouls more through guile.

Bird did all kinds of off-ball movement. He routinely took advantage of screens to move around. Respect to Reggie, but also don't forget to mention that he was an early-model hooker paid in drawn BS fouls. He was very, very good at exploiting the refs with nonsense. Like Old Mailman, and Old Jordan, he was very good at somehow selling that he was getting fouled on fadeaways when he kicked the defender, among other things. He was legitimately quite good, but he also milked moves like that for everything they were worth, ala Kobe and the rip-through.

The finishing bit is based off eye test that is corrobated by Ben Taylor's greatest peaks series. It also makes intuitive sense to me why he might struggle due to his lack of burst.

Also I just believe Miller was better at the things I mentioned, not much else I cam really say.

[tsherkin]

The finishing bit is based off eye test that is corrobated by Ben Taylor's greatest peaks series. It also makes intuitive sense to me why he might struggle due to his lack of burst.

To be fair, he provides only anecdotal evidence of this fact. He discusses his FTA75 and he shows some good clips of Bird using trickery and guile around the rim because he couldn't get up high enough to finish more easily as his career progressed. He certainly talks about him needing his left hand because of it and "missing bunnies" and the like, but he doesn't really prove his point. Moreover and again, he shot well enough inside the arc that his finishing rate can't have been south of 60% from 0-3 feet, basically, given the percentages that even all-time great shooters hit from 3-23 feet and his proportion of shots from that range not likely being that high.

Also I just believe Miller was better at the things I mentioned, not much else I cam really say.

But Ben also spends a lengthy amount of time talking about Bird's off-ball play. Miller was not better at that. What he did do was more specifically target 3pt shots with his off-ball movement, in volume. And he was better at drawing and selling contact, for sure, but certainly not at off-ball movement.

[LukaTheGOAT]

The finishing bit is based off eye test that is corrobated by Ben Taylor's greatest peaks series. It also makes intuitive sense to me why he might struggle due to his lack of burst.

To be fair, he provides only anecdotal evidence of this fact. He discusses his FTA75 and he shows some good clips of Bird using trickery and guile around the rim because he couldn't get up high enough to finish more easily as his career progressed. He certainly talks about him needing his left hand because of it and "missing bunnies" and the like, but he doesn't really prove his point. Moreover and again, he shot well enough inside the arc that his finishing rate can't have been south of 60% from 0-3 feet, basically, given the percentages that even all-time great shooters hit from 3-23 feet and his proportion of shots from that range not likely being that high.

Also I just believe Miller was better at the things I mentioned, not much else I cam really say.

But Ben also spends a lengthy amount of time talking about Bird's off-ball play. Miller was not better at that. What he did do was more specifically target 3pt shots with his off-ball movement, in volume. And he was better at drawing and selling contact, for sure, but certainly not at off-ball movement.

"Miller was the best player in history at using screens (rivaled today by Steph Curry), mixing savvy with quickness (and some clandestine pushing) to shake defenders."- Ben Taylor in Reggie Miller's Backpicks Profile

Taylor also came up with a metric for attempting to measure off-ball value and I won't spoil anything but will list the link below

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/52-the-best-off-ball-players-of-the-3-point-era/id1428290303?i=1000472115014

[tsherkin]

"Miller was the best player in history at using screens (rivaled today by Steph Curry), mixing savvy with quickness (and some clandestine pushing) to shake defenders."- Ben Taylor in Reggie Miller's Backpicks Profile

Right, but using screens also isn't the only way to play without the ball, after all.

[falcolombardi]

The finishing bit is based off eye test that is corrobated by Ben Taylor's greatest peaks series. It also makes intuitive sense to me why he might struggle due to his lack of burst.

To be fair, he provides only anecdotal evidence of this fact. He discusses his FTA75 and he shows some good clips of Bird using trickery and guile around the rim because he couldn't get up high enough to finish more easily as his career progressed. He certainly talks about him needing his left hand because of it and "missing bunnies" and the like, but he doesn't really prove his point. Moreover and again, he shot well enough inside the arc that his finishing rate can't have been south of 60% from 0-3 feet, basically, given the percentages that even all-time great shooters hit from 3-23 feet and his proportion of shots from that range not likely being that high.

Also I just believe Miller was better at the things I mentioned, not much else I cam really say.

But Ben also spends a lengthy amount of time talking about Bird's off-ball play. Miller was not better at that. What he did do was more specifically target 3pt shots with his off-ball movement, in volume. And he was better at drawing and selling contact, for sure, but certainly not at off-ball movement.

Is possible that bird inside scoring suffered mpre in the postseason?

It would explain the semi common efficiency drop offs

[tsherkin]

Is possible that bird inside scoring suffered mpre in the postseason?

It would explain the semi common efficiency drop offs

Yep. Bird definitely had problems against certain kinds of defenders, for sure. Wasn't a huge problem across the regular season, but he suffered a noted FG% drop in the playoffs and it wasn't his jump shooting that seemed mostly to suffer, for sure.

[theonlyclutch]

guess that's fair.

To elaborate a bit more on why volume can matter I think Miller is a guy that defenses could keep from getting the ball in a way it was harder to do with other guys. Which not only means he shoots less but it means other guys have to take those shots that you might not want shooting as much in big games. So I think it is a bit of a weakness with Reggie. With Bird you could give him the ball at almost any time and he could shoot it if he wanted to.

Could he though? My impression with Bird was that he was comparatively not as good at generating good shots on-ball as many of the players being compared to in this thread, which is a reason why he generally struggles in the playoffs and against better defenses that are more disciplined.

[Cavsfansince84]

guess that's fair.

To elaborate a bit more on why volume can matter I think Miller is a guy that defenses could keep from getting the ball in a way it was harder to do with other guys. Which not only means he shoots less but it means other guys have to take those shots that you might not want shooting as much in big games. So I think it is a bit of a weakness with Reggie. With Bird you could give him the ball at almost any time and he could shoot it if he wanted to.

Could he though? My impression with Bird was that he was comparatively not as good at generating good shots on-ball as many of the players being compared to in this thread, which is a reason why he generally struggles in the playoffs and against better defenses that are more disciplined.

I think he was more inconsistent in that area than guys who might be thought of as top 10 but he still had entire championship runs or series where he did it exceptionally well. On large volume on great efficiency. I mean even guys like MJ or LeBron had series where they weren't super at it either much less Kobe, Steph or whoever.