Right now: Giannis, Curry and Jokic are lock top 3 players. KD, Luka, Embiid and Lebron are all borderline top 5

[Warriors Analyst]

Uh... do you know the difference between eFG and TS? Or can you not read where I say the difference is 2% eFG?

I know the difference, why should we exclude FT shooting from the equation though?

Curry is targeted because of his size, Doncic because of his movement. Neither of them are elite defenders, and they're both liabilities.

The difference is that Curry has been targeted ineffectively last season, while Doncic got destroyed a lot of times on defense. Curry hasn't been a liablity defensively for years.

Someone has to have the ball on teams. Luka obviously plays well with Slovenia, and isn't so ball dominant in his international play. On the Mavs, it's definitely Luka who you want handling the ball. He plays very well with secondary ball handlers, so it's not like he's limiting the offense hugely.

Well, he played last year next to talented ball-handler in Brunson, so it's not like he was forced to run everything through him. It's not even a bad thing, but the question I have is what he does when he doesn't have the ball - and he doesn't bring much value here. I also fail to see your Slovenia example, Doncic played the same way in Eurobasket.

Players with that much USG rarely have the energy to play offball effectively. Lebron, Harden, Doncic - they just drift to a spot on the 3 point line and observe+conserve energy. Doncic is an elite shooter - he's not Curry, but he's not bad offball.

I exclude the FT line from efficiency because the way it's included in TS is flawed - it weights "and1" with nothing extra. Miss your "and1" and you're supposedly "less efficient" than if you made the shot and never even took the FT. It counts a fouled 3 potentially worse than a fouled 2 - make 2 FTs and miss 1, then your efficiency is "lower" than making 2 FTs off a missed 2.

In terms of what they did last season, it seems pretty obvious that Doncic did a lot more on a team with less help. In the regular season, the Warriors and Mavs actually had almost the same record - although Curry wasn't as healthy, availability is an important ability in which Doncic far oustripes Curry. The Warriors only got onto a level higher when Klay came back.

The Warriors were 30-9 when Klay came back. Try again.

[euroleague]

I know the difference, why should we exclude FT shooting from the equation though?


The difference is that Curry has been targeted ineffectively last season, while Doncic got destroyed a lot of times on defense. Curry hasn't been a liablity defensively for years.


Well, he played last year next to talented ball-handler in Brunson, so it's not like he was forced to run everything through him. It's not even a bad thing, but the question I have is what he does when he doesn't have the ball - and he doesn't bring much value here. I also fail to see your Slovenia example, Doncic played the same way in Eurobasket.

Players with that much USG rarely have the energy to play offball effectively. Lebron, Harden, Doncic - they just drift to a spot on the 3 point line and observe+conserve energy. Doncic is an elite shooter - he's not Curry, but he's not bad offball.

I exclude the FT line from efficiency because the way it's included in TS is flawed - it weights "and1" with nothing extra. Miss your "and1" and you're supposedly "less efficient" than if you made the shot and never even took the FT. It counts a fouled 3 potentially worse than a fouled 2 - make 2 FTs and miss 1, then your efficiency is "lower" than making 2 FTs off a missed 2.

In terms of what they did last season, it seems pretty obvious that Doncic did a lot more on a team with less help. In the regular season, the Warriors and Mavs actually had almost the same record - although Curry wasn't as healthy, availability is an important ability in which Doncic far oustripes Curry. The Warriors only got onto a level higher when Klay came back.

The Warriors were 30-9 when Klay came back. Try again.

Curry was 45-19. Seems like they would be better without Klay than with Curry… if that was a real stat.

I’m talking about when he was recovered and “back”, not when he first started playing 15-25 minutes a game off the bench.

[parsnips33]

Players with that much USG rarely have the energy to play offball effectively. Lebron, Harden, Doncic - they just drift to a spot on the 3 point line and observe+conserve energy. Doncic is an elite shooter - he's not Curry, but he's not bad offball.

I exclude the FT line from efficiency because the way it's included in TS is flawed - it weights "and1" with nothing extra. Miss your "and1" and you're supposedly "less efficient" than if you made the shot and never even took the FT. It counts a fouled 3 potentially worse than a fouled 2 - make 2 FTs and miss 1, then your efficiency is "lower" than making 2 FTs off a missed 2.

In terms of what they did last season, it seems pretty obvious that Doncic did a lot more on a team with less help. In the regular season, the Warriors and Mavs actually had almost the same record - although Curry wasn't as healthy, availability is an important ability in which Doncic far oustripes Curry. The Warriors only got onto a level higher when Klay came back.

The Warriors were 30-9 when Klay came back. Try again.

Curry was 45-19. Seems like they would be better without Klay than with Curry… if that was a real stat.

I’m talking about when he was recovered and “back”, not when he first started playing 15-25 minutes a game off the bench.

Klay didn't come off the bench at all FYI. And it's not like his play followed a very linear path where he just got better and better as time went on - there were hot periods and periods where he really struggled offensively, especially in the later rounds of the playoffs

[Warriors Analyst]

Players with that much USG rarely have the energy to play offball effectively. Lebron, Harden, Doncic - they just drift to a spot on the 3 point line and observe+conserve energy. Doncic is an elite shooter - he's not Curry, but he's not bad offball.

I exclude the FT line from efficiency because the way it's included in TS is flawed - it weights "and1" with nothing extra. Miss your "and1" and you're supposedly "less efficient" than if you made the shot and never even took the FT. It counts a fouled 3 potentially worse than a fouled 2 - make 2 FTs and miss 1, then your efficiency is "lower" than making 2 FTs off a missed 2.

In terms of what they did last season, it seems pretty obvious that Doncic did a lot more on a team with less help. In the regular season, the Warriors and Mavs actually had almost the same record - although Curry wasn't as healthy, availability is an important ability in which Doncic far oustripes Curry. The Warriors only got onto a level higher when Klay came back.

The Warriors were 30-9 when Klay came back. Try again.

Curry was 45-19. Seems like they would be better without Klay than with Curry… if that was a real stat.

I’m talking about when he was recovered and “back”, not when he first started playing 15-25 minutes a game off the bench.

Seriously?

If you're going to participate in these discussions, at least do your homework.

The issue at hand was that Klay's return coincided with injuries to Draymond and then Andre Iguodala. Kuminga got forced into big minutes and he and Wiggins were put in the position of trying to hold the defense together ala Draymond. As you'd expect, that went quite poorly. And then later in the season, Dray returned and Steph got hurt in the very next game.

[iggymcfrack]

Jokic 99
Giannis 98
(gap)
Embiid 95
Curry 95
Tatum 94
LeBron 93
Luka 93
Durant 93
Kawhi 93

[f4p]

what exactly is the argument for steph or luka other than rangz? arguing steph is at the peak of his powers when he just spent 82 games having his worst and least efficient regular season since his rookie year seems a bit suspect. if we're just focusing on the playoffs, then steph's numbers were good but not much different than 2015 and only slightly better than the disappointing 2016 and 2018 playoffs. meanwhile, if it's a playoff thing, luka played 2 1st round series against the clippers the previous 2 years where he ended up as the leading scorer in playoff history, including things like putting up a 40 point triple double with a game-winner. this year, he had a series against a 64 win #1 seed where he averaged 33/10/7 and had a historic 30 point first half in a game seven to close them out on the road. arguing he's too on-ball and doesn't have good impact numbers seems kind of pointless in the face of those results. considering the opponent, results, and individual performance, does steph have a single series better than luka against phoenix?

this weird "why are you looking at luka's numbers since he plays on-ball and off-ball must be superior because that's how steph plays" argument goes against a long, storied history of teams winning titles with on ball stars (like basically every non-warriors title since 1986). and against the idea that most team constructions rely on an on-ball player to get the role players good shots because it's the simplest way to create those shots because not every team has a draymond or iggy to make the complex reads and be the good passers necessary to make many of the off-ball things work (JR smith makes catch and shoot 3 after lebron drives and kicks to him is a simpler ask than steph runs around and then you hope your center can handle the ball and make 4-on-3 reads to get everyone the shots they need). the "off-ball is superior so who cares what numbers people put up any more" argument also just seems a way to come to whatever conclusion you would like. i mean, did the warriors beat the mavs because of steph's 23.8 ppg on 59 TS% (7.4 apg/6.6 rpg) against the 6th ranked defense compared to luka's 32/9/6 on 56 TS% against the #1 defense? those aren't even particular impressive numbers for steph's playoff career and his team won easily, even comfortably winning the close-out game with steph going 5/17 for 15 points. it kind of seems like playing for the most talented team in the league had more to do with the warriors winning than steph having some inarguable case over luka.

[tsherkin]

I like Steph, but he clearly had a down season in the RS. Worst 3pt shooting of his career, missed 18 games, hasn't shot that poorly under the arc since 2015... like, it's okay to acknowledge that he didn't have a titanic season by his standards, nor relative to the upper tier of players in the league. He was better in the PS than he'd been in the RS, particularly in the WCFs and in the Finals, of course.

We'll see what he comes into 2023 with. I think it's clear that Giannis and Jokic are the top 2, but thereafter? Tough to tell.

In the scope of Luka vs. Steph, I think Tex had a reasonably good take. Luka's pretty good. Top 5 seems pretty reasonable. I think Steph still has some pull that Doncic doesn't, and some flexibility due to his off-ball game and better D that help things. Steph's older now, not in peak form, so it isn't unreasonable to suggest that the gap isn't that large... and that we should be watching to see how things unfold this upcoming season.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Jokic 99
Giannis 98
(gap)
Embiid 95
Curry 95
Tatum 94
LeBron 93
Luka 93
Durant 93
Kawhi 93

The numbering system works just fine without context but you are not the only person using the system. Where is that numbering system coming from.

Trae Young, Ja Morant and Jaren Jackson are impact players. Mobley may enter the elite soon.

[OhayoKD]

Right now
Giannis, Curry and Jokic are top 3 players. Locked, sealed tightly.

And then Embiid, Luka, Lebron, KD are all borderline top 5 and interchangeable.

I'd go 40 worst player of all time. Best most recent player Lebron at a 99 all throoughout during prime.

Giannis 97

Curry 96
Jokic 96

Gap


Embiid 95
Luka 95
KD 95
Lebron 95

love kd. But what's his case vs luka right now? Hasn't luka basically just done a better version of what durant has done in the last two playoffs on top of comparable or better regular seasons?

Putting him above Jokic also feels wierd but i guess there's an argument that jokic's defense as a big is debilitating

[OhayoKD]

I like Steph, but he clearly had a down season in the RS. Worst 3pt shooting of his career, missed 18 games, hasn't shot that poorly under the arc since 2015... like, it's okay to acknowledge that he didn't have a titanic season by his standards, nor relative to the upper tier of players in the league. He was better in the PS than he'd been in the RS, particularly in the WCFs and in the Finals, of course.

We'll see what he comes into 2023 with. I think it's clear that Giannis and Jokic are the top 2, but thereafter? Tough to tell.

In the scope of Luka vs. Steph, I think Tex had a reasonably good take. Luka's pretty good. Top 5 seems pretty reasonable. I think Steph still has some pull that Doncic doesn't, and some flexibility due to his off-ball game and better D that help things. Steph's older now, not in peak form, so it isn't unreasonable to suggest that the gap isn't that large... and that we should be watching to see how things unfold this upcoming season.

I mean, even with his shooting being bleh, steph still had the warriors playing 60 win ball without klay before his injury. The warriors also sucked when steph was injured despite getting klay and they've played like the worst team in the league without steph for 3 seasons. Mauybe the shooting percentages were off-shot by creation?

[tsherkin]

I like Steph, but he clearly had a down season in the RS. Worst 3pt shooting of his career, missed 18 games, hasn't shot that poorly under the arc since 2015... like, it's okay to acknowledge that he didn't have a titanic season by his standards, nor relative to the upper tier of players in the league. He was better in the PS than he'd been in the RS, particularly in the WCFs and in the Finals, of course.

We'll see what he comes into 2023 with. I think it's clear that Giannis and Jokic are the top 2, but thereafter? Tough to tell.

In the scope of Luka vs. Steph, I think Tex had a reasonably good take. Luka's pretty good. Top 5 seems pretty reasonable. I think Steph still has some pull that Doncic doesn't, and some flexibility due to his off-ball game and better D that help things. Steph's older now, not in peak form, so it isn't unreasonable to suggest that the gap isn't that large... and that we should be watching to see how things unfold this upcoming season.

I mean, even with his shooting being bleh, steph still had the warriors playing 60 win ball without klay before his injury. The warriors also sucked when steph was injured despite getting klay and they've played like the worst team in the league without steph for 3 seasons. Mauybe the shooting percentages were off-shot by creation?

It's possible? He had a good year, though still a down year by his standards and a statistically mortal season definitely down from his peak. It will be interesting to see how he plays this year.