Nash/Kobe/Stoudemire how many titles?

[rand]

What if the Lakers had traded Kobe to Phoenix for Kidd/Marion and the Suns still went on draft Amare, make D'Antoni HC, and sign Nash. How many titles would the Nash/Kobe/Stoudemire Suns win between 2005-2010?

*Stoudemire is still lost for 2006 and Phoenix has the same quality of roleplayers otherwise.

[Owly]

Phoenix was consistently too cheap to pay first rounders (got Deng, knew they had Deng, a very good player as it turned out, 7th pick traded it for Josh Vroman (i.e. nothing) for a Bulls pick which given roster age, injuries, the fact that they were getting a good young NBA-ready player should have been clear was unlikely to be a better pick, then moved on that 21st known to be Nate Robinson a useful player, in the Richardson Thomas deal, which itself was

The question then is
1) Can Phoenix get Nash with Bryant in place (irl moved Kidd for Marbury; Marbury with Hardaway for McDyess, Eisley, Ward (i.e. expiring contracts) .... and some picks they didn't end up keeping because ...)? They have the saved Marion money but Kobe's cap hold is going to be more than that and can no longer dump Hardaway.
2) Can this Phoenix team (coming off 29 wins) retain Bryant?
3) Would Phoenix pay for that core even if they theoretically can?

If we just assume it did happen ... don't love the fit. Both at this point are much better on O than D. Kobe at that point wanted primacy, to be the star, but Phoenix flourished putting the ball in Nash's hands (you don't want Kobe unhappy, you don't want the ball out of Nash's hands). Bryant probably squeezes Bell out of the lineup removing a low key sniper (.406 from 3 career, .422 in Phoenix) and one of the heavy defensive load bearers with Marion (also gone). Of course there's high end talent there but I don't think (as early polling indicates) that it's a gimmie to be a dynasty (you have to have some luck, even with great teams to win even one).

Also depends on domino/butterfly effect. What do LA look like? How are picks changed? Where does Marbury go? Where does cap space go? Who's taking Marion's minutes?

[Stalwart]

The notion that Kobe wanted primacy, as in control of the ball above all else or to share the limelight, is a fake narrative. Im not sure why Owly is pushing that nonesense. "You don't want to make Kobe unhappy..." what a crock.

[No-more-rings]

They'd still have problems on defense, Kobe in for Marion isn't even an upgrade. On offense, I think they're going to put up at least relative wise a few of the best ORTGs ever. But with Kobe subbed in they become a different force in the playoffs.

Kobe with Nash, I get it not really a perfect fit but Kobe's not a dumb player he's not going to squander that sort of offensive talent at his side. Who gets primacy on offense him or Nash, my guess is as good as anyone. It should be Nash, but would be interesting to see what D'Antoni would scheme up.

They'd win titles, there's absolutely no doubt about it. How many depends on some number of factors, 06 is unlikely but they should be heavy favorites in 05, 07, and 10. The Shaq trade never happens, which is good because Kobe those years was a way better player for one thing.

I think they get between 2-4 titles. It's not a slam dunk every year or anything when you consider injuries and a natural wear and tear.

[penbeast0]

I want to make a snarky comment about why anyone would downgrade from Marion but Kobe was indeed a better player. Still, if all the other players and moves are the same that means Kobe is playing forward on a roster with even less big men since they built around Marion at PF and Marion was an incredibly good fit with that team and system. I don't see it working any better.

Replacing Amare with Kobe is a whole different story as I think that team could win rings even with a complete donut in the middle as they would at least have some defense out there to go with all that offense.

[tsherkin]

I want to make a snarky comment about why anyone would downgrade from Marion but Kobe was indeed a better player. Still, if all the other players and moves are the same that means Kobe is playing forward on a roster with even less big men since they built around Marion at PF and Marion was an incredibly good fit with that team and system. I don't see it working any better.

Yeah, Kobe brings better iso scoring, but is a large downgrade on the glass, and was never as good at the niche things Marion did in transition or defensively. And he'd never have ratcheted his offense down enough to really zone in on defense the way Marion did as a primarily-off-ball player.

Replacing Amare with Kobe is a whole different story as I think that team could win rings even with a complete donut in the middle as they would at least have some defense out there to go with all that offense.

Definitely an interesting thought. Nash proved well enough that you could throw Marcin Gortat or Channing Frye out there in the frontcourt and he'd still make it work, so having someone like Kobe instead of Amare would have been pretty nice.

[uberhikari]

With Nash on the perimeter and Amar'e at C, that will be a horrendously bad defense with Kobe taking Bell's minutes and Marion gone. They might win 1 title off talent alone but that's it. They'll pretty much be what they were in real life: one of the best offensive teams that always lost in the playoffs because they couldn't put together a championship defense.

[Optms]

They win 3+. The Celtics Big 3 would be the only team that would have posed a threat.

Simply too much offense. Phoenix would need to get 3 and D guys with Marion gone but that's an easy dynasty if they manage to get a couple of glue guys to compliment that trio, and if Amar'e stays healthy. Phoenix should have beaten the Spurs in 2007 but we all know the league interfered with that. They were already a fringe contender. Add Kobe and its a wrap.

[An Unbiased Fan]

3 rings. PHX would have to get a defensive big though to clean the glass.

[prolific passer]

Kobe was what? One year removed from playing with one 25+ppg big? Don't know how he would feel with playing with another.