Who's position will be more clearly defined? Jerry West, A.I, James Harden

mdonnelly1989 · Post #1 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:26 pm

Many have given both of these players PG, SG, and Combo guard.

A.I is a PG?
A.I is a SG?

Harden is a PG?
Harden is a SG?

West is a PG?
West is a SG?

Owly · Post #2 » by **Owly** » Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:57 pm

My first glance, no research thoughts.

Ai SG. Think he played most and best at that position. Had some off ball game. I guess Snow being a tall pg allowed cross-matching, so maybe it depends how you define, but I'd say a 2.

Harden SG. Played the bulk of his career next to clear cut 1s. Size of a 2. Early game that of a 2 (some Manu comps). Became more ball dominant but still more a "primary/lead" guard (as prime Wade or MJ), still more defined by scoring than passing or vision. Probably better equipped to defend bigger positions too. Maybe I'm missing something here, have watched very little of him in the last few years.

West is fuzzier. He played in a time the guard roles were less distinct. My best guess is he spends more time at point. Did some estimates for each year a long time ago tilting that way, based on assist rates though as a bigger scorer (than backcourt partners) one would expect him to have the ball more and so more opportunities. Listed size undersells him and otoh I'd suspect he was generally the bigger guard. Conventional wisdom has him firmly in the SG camp and I'm neither so certain nor care so much to fight it or perhaps it's just too ingrained so I tend to think of him as an SG. Might be most accurate for the time to think him just a "guard" but for conventional categorization that doesn't really help.

Post #3 » by **penbeast0** » Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:22 pm

I would say West is the clearest PG of the 3, though if Iverson had chosen to play that role out of college, I think he'd be a better (but less popular) player. West started as a combo guard but as he grew older and the Lakers moved the ball more to him and less to Elgin, he turned into a pretty pure scoring PG. However, he mainly guarded big twos and bigger ones so not a super clear definition. Similar progression with Harden though he started as a SG and played more point as he grew older; still mainly a SG for his career. Even more than West, he usually guarded the wing guard. Iverson probably played the least PG though he had the ball in his hands much more than the Eric Snow types who played next to him, but he spent the most time guarding opposing points due to his size.

So, I'd say Harden because his defensive role is more defined by his position. Far from sure I am answering the question that the OP wants to ask though.

Colbinii · Post #4 » by **Colbinii** » Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:27 pm

I think we need to clearly define what PG and SG are and then apply those definitions

Post #5 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:44 am

To me, a point guard is the one who brings the ball up and initiates the offense, even if that means just moving the ball to the high scoring wing or throwing it in to the post player who actually create. All other positions are mainly defined by their defensive roles but PG seems to a purely offensive definition or Magic and Oscar wouldn't be considered PGs. So SG is the one who defends the smallest player on the floor that the PG isn't guarding (as opposed to SF who guards the 3rd smallest).

Dutchball97 · Post #6 » by **Dutchball97** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:48 am

I see West as a PG who also played SG, while AI and Harden are SGs who also played PG. I generally just look at where did they play the most over their careers. It's not that deep anyway, when there can be so much discussion about what position players play then these positions aren't that different from each other in the first place.

The 2-4 wing positions are just one big mesh at the moment. 2s tend to be a bit smaller and 4s a bit bigger but with how often we just see teams throt out three 6'8 guys on the wings even that is blurring. Centers used to be the most defined position but with them playing out on the perimeter now too even that's not as clear, not a surprise we see a lot of small line-ups now without a true center and rosters with only one real center and no back ups. Point guard sure you can define it as bringing up the ball but that also sounds like something straight from the 60s to me, how often do we still see one designated guy to bring up the ball every single time? Playmaking wings and bigs are taking some of those duties as well and I wholeheartedly disagree with the people wanting to now call those guys PGs just because of that.

Johnny Tomala · Post #7 » by **Johnny Tomala** » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:14 pm

West - PG
Harden - SG
Iverson - SG

MiamiBulls · Post #8 » by **MiamiBulls** » Wed Nov 2, 2022 6:12 am

Harden SG
Iverson SG
West SG

As for West, "The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame announced today the five finalists for the 2022 Jerry West Shooting Guard of the Year Award. Named after Class of 1980 Hall of Famer and 1959 NCAA Final Four Most Valuable Player Jerry West, the annual honor in its eighth year recognizes the top shooting guards in Division I men’s college basketball."

Historically, West's natural position will be officially recognized as a Shooting Guard since he is celebrated as a SG.

HeartBreakKid · Post #9 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Wed Nov 2, 2022 6:37 am

MiamiBulls wrote:Harden SG
Iverson SG
West SG

As for West, "The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame announced today the five finalists for the 2022 Jerry West Shooting Guard of the Year Award. Named after Class of 1980 Hall of Famer and 1959 NCAA Final Four Most Valuable Player Jerry West, the annual honor in its eighth year recognizes the top shooting guards in Division I men’s college basketball."

Historically, West's natural position will be officially recognized as a Shooting Guard since he is celebrated as a SG.

I mean he's been recognized as a shooting guard for a long time. It doesn't really mean he was one though.

giordunk · Post #10 » by **giordunk** » Mon Nov 7, 2022 5:15 am

Any time you are the primary offensive player you are the de facto point guard of your team. When your point guard is one of the weaker players on the court then you're just a guy who can bring the ball up, guard the other team's point guard, and be a reliable presence on the floor. Derek Fisher and Mario Chalmers have more in common with Danny Green and Trevor Ariza than they do with Steve Nash.

I think Harden is the most clear cut shooting guard of the bunch because of his size.

HeartBreakKid · Post #11 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Nov 7, 2022 6:28 am

giordunk wrote:Any time you are the primary offensive player you are the de facto point guard of your team. When your point guard is one of the weaker players on the court then you're just a guy who can bring the ball up, guard the other team's point guard, and be a reliable presence on the floor. Derek Fisher and Mario Chalmers have more in common with Danny Green and Trevor Ariza than they do with Steve Nash.

I think Harden is the most clear cut shooting guard of the bunch because of his size.

Not really. There are plenty of guys who are only secondary handlers, and many more players who aren't much of handlers at all. No one would ever confuse Wilkins as a point guard.