Who wins the most games of 1 on 1 (at each position)

[Gooner]

I think Harden may be the GOAT 1v1 Point Guard [or even SG]. He is a good--maybe even terrific--post defender. He is the greatest isolation scorer we have data on [1997-2022] and is extremely strong.

Harden relies too much on fouls. In a physical 1-1 game, Jordan would manhandle and trash talk him.

Lol there is not a single guard in NBA history that could manhandle Harden. Maybe Ben Simmons but I'm not sure he is in the spirit of the thread.

Harden has, like, 10 kg on peak Jordan. This is beyond ridiculous.

Spoiler:

It's not all about kg. Jordan is stronger and tougher than Harden. He was much more athletic than him and he had that explosive strength. Put Zion Williamson on Jordan and he would post him up no problem. Harden would get dominated, it's as simpe as that. And to use Ben Simmons as a counter example, that's weird. That guy can't post up Kyle Lowry.

[Jaivl]

Harden relies too much on fouls. In a physical 1-1 game, Jordan would manhandle and trash talk him.

Lol there is not a single guard in NBA history that could manhandle Harden. Maybe Ben Simmons but I'm not sure he is in the spirit of the thread.

Harden has, like, 10 kg on peak Jordan. This is beyond ridiculous.

Spoiler:

It's not all about kg. Jordan is stronger and tougher than Harden.

Source: his own delusions

Harden was one of the best post defenders in the league for a bit, constantly bully-balls as a part of his game and has 10 kg on Jordan, b-b-but daddy Jordan is the bestest and strongest!!! Daddy Jordan never loses to the bad guys!!!

As an aside, Zion (or Simmons) wouldn't need to post up Jordan, they would simply absorb contact and cruise past him.

[70sFan]

I guess Jordan is the strongest, the fastest, the quickest, the toughest, the meaniest, the most powerful being that ever played on the basketball court - based on his fans beliefs...

No, I don't buy that Jordan would manhandle Harden. He'd outquick him, outsmart him, but he wouldn't bully him. Nor he would do that to Oscar Robertson, for those who want to see how a bully guard truly looks like.

I wonder if you ever watched 1991 Lakers finals, when Magic just abused Jordan in the post multiple times. Jordan looked hopeless against him without help, where was his godly strength then?

[Gooner]

Lol there is not a single guard in NBA history that could manhandle Harden. Maybe Ben Simmons but I'm not sure he is in the spirit of the thread.

Harden has, like, 10 kg on peak Jordan. This is beyond ridiculous.

Spoiler:

It's not all about kg. Jordan is stronger and tougher than Harden.

Source: his own delusions

Harden was one of the best post defenders in the league for a bit, constantly bully-balls as a part of his game and has 10 kg on Jordan, b-b-but daddy Jordan is the bestest and strongest!!! Daddy Jordan never loses to the bad guys!!!

As an aside, Zion (or Simmons) wouldn't need to post up Jordan, they would simply absorb contact and cruise past him.

Harden is a great post defender, not denying that, although today's players can't really post up. He is also strong, but nobody can guard Jordan 1-1, it's impossible. I also wouldn't call Harden a bully ball player, he is more of a foul baiter. Jordan played through contact surrounded by muiltiple defenders throughout his entire career. Jordan is much tougher than Harden.

I never said Zion couldn't post up Jordan, or anybody. I said Jordan could post him up despite having 30 kg less. Simmons really doesn't belong in this argument, he is soft and can't score.

[Gooner]

I guess Jordan is the strongest, the fastest, the quickest, the toughest, the meaniest, the most powerful being that ever played on the basketball court - based on his fans beliefs...

No, I don't buy that Jordan would manhandle Harden. He'd outquick him, outsmart him, but he wouldn't bully him. Nor he would do that to Oscar Robertson, for those who want to see how a bully guard truly looks like.

I wonder if you ever watched 1991 Lakers finals, when Magic just abused Jordan in the post multiple times. Jordan looked hopeless against him without help, where was his godly strength then?

There is a reason why Jordan is the GOAT. He had everything.

[70sFan]

I guess Jordan is the strongest, the fastest, the quickest, the toughest, the meaniest, the most powerful being that ever played on the basketball court - based on his fans beliefs...

No, I don't buy that Jordan would manhandle Harden. He'd outquick him, outsmart him, but he wouldn't bully him. Nor he would do that to Oscar Robertson, for those who want to see how a bully guard truly looks like.

I wonder if you ever watched 1991 Lakers finals, when Magic just abused Jordan in the post multiple times. Jordan looked hopeless against him without help, where was his godly strength then?

There is a reason why Jordan is the GOAT. He had everything.

So Magic manhandled him in the post, because he's the GOAT?

[HeartBreakKid]

I guess Jordan is the strongest, the fastest, the quickest, the toughest, the meaniest, the most powerful being that ever played on the basketball court - based on his fans beliefs...

No, I don't buy that Jordan would manhandle Harden. He'd outquick him, outsmart him, but he wouldn't bully him. Nor he would do that to Oscar Robertson, for those who want to see how a bully guard truly looks like.

I wonder if you ever watched 1991 Lakers finals, when Magic just abused Jordan in the post multiple times. Jordan looked hopeless against him without help, where was his godly strength then?

There is a reason why Jordan is the GOAT. He had everything.

You can be the GOAT without being the absolute best at every attribute. You don't know that?

If you think Jordan is "bullying" someone way bigger and stronger than him then a dose of reality this isn't a cartoon. He bullied guys in part because of his size as he is big for an SG, he is not doing that to other guards who are bigger than him.

[mysticOscar]

Harden has 10kg on Jordan??

Jordan is taller, can jump higher and is a lot faster.

Jordan is better at the post and mid range game and has more array of shots around the basket.

Jordan has better back to the basket handles and less prone to turnovers.

Jordan's a better man defender especially from the perimeter and have quicker hands

Jordan has more mental toughness and more willingness to get in your head.

But but Harden has 10kg over Jordan.

Nobody is saying that Jordan will 11-0 Harden....I'm sure if they played a few games Harden might get lucky and make it close or even steal a game, that goes for any mba star players...on a good day they could steal a game from anyone.

But any one that does not use any bias will put Jordan as heavy favourite

[Colbinii]

Harden has 10kg on Jordan??

Jordan is taller, can jump higher and is a lot faster.

Jordan is better at the post and mid range game and has more array of shots around the basket.

Jordan has better back to the basket handles and less prone to turnovers.

Jordan's a better man defender especially from the perimeter and have quicker hands

Jordan has more mental toughness and more willingness to get in your head.

But but Harden has 10kg over Jordan.

Nobody is saying that Jordan will 11-0 Harden....I'm sure if they played a few games Harden might get lucky and make it close or even steal a game, that goes for any mba star players...on a good day they could steal a game from anyone.

But any one that does not use any bias will put Jordan as heavy favourite

You do realize Gooner said Jordan is stronger than Harden, right?

It is also blasphemous to say "Anyone without a bias will think this way" when talking about James Harden, in a 1v1 setting, who is the greatest Isolation Scorer we have ever captured with tracking data.

[Jaivl]

Jordan is taller, can jump higher and is a lot faster.

Jordan is better at the post and mid range game and has more array of shots around the basket.

Jordan has better back to the basket handles and less prone to turnovers.

Jordan's a better man defender especially from the perimeter and have quicker hands

That's all true, yeah - but not really the point. The point right now is - Is Jordan stronger than Zion Williamson?

Nobody is saying that Jordan will 11-0 Harden....I'm sure if they played a few games Harden might get lucky and make it close or even steal a game, that goes for any mba star players...on a good day they could steal a game from anyone.

But any one that does not use any bias will put Jordan as heavy favourite

Nah that's ridiculous. The best isolation scorer of the last 20 years does not need to "get lucky" to beat anybody.

In fact it's a testament to Jordan's quality of play that everyone picked him, me being the only one that did not, but with an implicit message of Jordan > Harden for anyone that has any modicum of reading comprehension. I quote: "probably lean Harden slightly over Jordan because 2 >>>>>>> 1. Dumb ruleset".

(You miss in your post that Harden can create and finish good 3pt looks basically at will, among other things. And a 40% 3-pt is worth 80% on this setting - less if winner keeps possession).

[mysticOscar]

Jordan is taller, can jump higher and is a lot faster.

Jordan is better at the post and mid range game and has more array of shots around the basket.

Jordan has better back to the basket handles and less prone to turnovers.

Jordan's a better man defender especially from the perimeter and have quicker hands

That's all true, yeah - but not really the point. The point right now is - Is Jordan stronger than Zion Williamson?

Nobody is saying that Jordan will 11-0 Harden....I'm sure if they played a few games Harden might get lucky and make it close or even steal a game, that goes for any mba star players...on a good day they could steal a game from anyone.

But any one that does not use any bias will put Jordan as heavy favourite

Nah that's ridiculous. The best isolation scorer of the last 20 years does not need to "get lucky" to beat anybody.

In fact it's a testament to Jordan's quality of play that everyone picked him, me being the only one that did not, but with an implicit message of Jordan > Harden for anyone that has any modicum of reading comprehension. I quote: "probably lean Harden slightly over Jordan because 2 >>>>>>> 1. Dumb ruleset".

(You miss in your post that Harden can create and finish good 3pt looks basically at will, among other things. And a 40% 3-pt is worth 80% on this setting - less if winner keeps possession).

Harden being a 36% regular season and a 33% playoff 3pt shooter....I don't know why u keep bringing up 40% 3pt shot.

I can keep associating 6ft9 with MJ but it doesnt help with propping up MJs height advantage over Harden.

Also 3pt shooter basically gives up any 2nd chance possesion compared to around the basket, so your basic 40% = 80% used wrong values to begin with Harden and uses the wrong basic assumptions about its real equivelence.

Also his advantage on 3pt line means nothing in a 1v1 when his threat of a pass is not there and MJ can get on his grill from moment of possesion. MJ being one the greatest perimeter defender and his quickness can easily close the gap of Harden's 3pt advantage.

Everything else is almost an advantage to MJ, anyone with common sense would put MJ as heavy favourite.

.

[Gooner]

I guess Jordan is the strongest, the fastest, the quickest, the toughest, the meaniest, the most powerful being that ever played on the basketball court - based on his fans beliefs...

No, I don't buy that Jordan would manhandle Harden. He'd outquick him, outsmart him, but he wouldn't bully him. Nor he would do that to Oscar Robertson, for those who want to see how a bully guard truly looks like.

I wonder if you ever watched 1991 Lakers finals, when Magic just abused Jordan in the post multiple times. Jordan looked hopeless against him without help, where was his godly strength then?

There is a reason why Jordan is the GOAT. He had everything.

So Magic manhandled him in the post, because he's the GOAT?

That's an exaggeration. Magic was one of the best post players and he could score on anybody. He scored on Jordan, but he didn't destroy him the way people seem to think.

I guess Jordan is the strongest, the fastest, the quickest, the toughest, the meaniest, the most powerful being that ever played on the basketball court - based on his fans beliefs...

No, I don't buy that Jordan would manhandle Harden. He'd outquick him, outsmart him, but he wouldn't bully him. Nor he would do that to Oscar Robertson, for those who want to see how a bully guard truly looks like.

I wonder if you ever watched 1991 Lakers finals, when Magic just abused Jordan in the post multiple times. Jordan looked hopeless against him without help, where was his godly strength then?

There is a reason why Jordan is the GOAT. He had everything.

You can be the GOAT without being the absolute best at every attribute. You don't know that?

If you think Jordan is "bullying" someone way bigger and stronger than him then a dose of reality this isn't a cartoon. He bullied guys in part because of his size as he is big for an SG, he is not doing that to other guards who are bigger than him.

I never said Jordan was the best at everything. He wasn't the best 3 point shooter.

Harden is not way bigger than Jordan. He is thicker, and in his prime he had about 15 pouns on Jordan. Later he had about 30 pounds on him I guess, that's when he got a bit fat. But Jordan was 6'6'' 215 pounds of pure athleticism. He had a perfect body for basketball. Harden has no physical advantage over Jordan.

Jordan didn't just bully smaller guys. He was posting up bigger guys like Horace Grant when he was in Orlando.

Harden has 10kg on Jordan??

Jordan is taller, can jump higher and is a lot faster.

Jordan is better at the post and mid range game and has more array of shots around the basket.

Jordan has better back to the basket handles and less prone to turnovers.

Jordan's a better man defender especially from the perimeter and have quicker hands

Jordan has more mental toughness and more willingness to get in your head.

But but Harden has 10kg over Jordan.

Nobody is saying that Jordan will 11-0 Harden....I'm sure if they played a few games Harden might get lucky and make it close or even steal a game, that goes for any mba star players...on a good day they could steal a game from anyone.

But any one that does not use any bias will put Jordan as heavy favourite

You do realize Gooner said Jordan is stronger than Harden, right?

It is also blasphemous to say "Anyone without a bias will think this way" when talking about James Harden, in a 1v1 setting, who is the greatest Isolation Scorer we have ever captured with tracking data.

Jordan was stronger than Harden.

[70sFan]

There is a reason why Jordan is the GOAT. He had everything.

So Magic manhandled him in the post, because he's the GOAT?

That's an exaggeration. Magic was one of the best post players and he could score on anybody. He scored on Jordan, but he didn't destroy him the way people seem to think.

Jordan was hopeless against Magic one on one in the finals. Magic took advnatage of this matchup a lot of times, Jordan didn't do a good job on him at all.

As you said, Magic is one of the best post players ever, it's not shameful that Jordan couldn't guard him. You just need to stop exaggarating everything about Jordan, he's not God. You act like Harden would have no hope against him, even though Harden is the best isolation scorer of the last 25 years, including old MJ.

[Jaivl]

Jordan is taller, can jump higher and is a lot faster.

Jordan is better at the post and mid range game and has more array of shots around the basket.

Jordan has better back to the basket handles and less prone to turnovers.

Jordan's a better man defender especially from the perimeter and have quicker hands

That's all true, yeah - but not really the point. The point right now is - Is Jordan stronger than Zion Williamson?

Nobody is saying that Jordan will 11-0 Harden....I'm sure if they played a few games Harden might get lucky and make it close or even steal a game, that goes for any mba star players...on a good day they could steal a game from anyone.

But any one that does not use any bias will put Jordan as heavy favourite

Nah that's ridiculous. The best isolation scorer of the last 20 years does not need to "get lucky" to beat anybody.

In fact it's a testament to Jordan's quality of play that everyone picked him, me being the only one that did not, but with an implicit message of Jordan > Harden for anyone that has any modicum of reading comprehension. I quote: "probably lean Harden slightly over Jordan because 2 >>>>>>> 1. Dumb ruleset".

(You miss in your post that Harden can create and finish good 3pt looks basically at will, among other things. And a 40% 3-pt is worth 80% on this setting - less if winner keeps possession).

Harden being a 36% regular season and a 33% playoff 3pt shooter....I don't know why u keep bringing up 40% 3pt shot.

I can keep associating 6ft9 with MJ but it doesnt help with propping up MJs height advantage over Harden.

Also 3pt shooter basically gives up any 2nd chance possesion compared to around the basket, so your basic 40% = 80% used wrong values to begin with Harden and uses the wrong basic assumptions about its real equivelence.

Also his advantage on 3pt line means nothing in a 1v1 when his threat of a pass is not there and MJ can get on his grill from moment of possesion. MJ being one the greatest perimeter defender and his quickness can easily close the gap of Harden's 3pt advantage.

Everything else is almost an advantage to MJ, anyone with common sense would put MJ as heavy favourite.

.

I'm not saying Harden shoots 40% from three, it was just an example. More like a 37% on his peak, yeah. But I don't think you comprehend how good is being an 55 eFG% player on iso on while nearly doubling the next player in the league on volume, like 2018 Harden was. And that's not even counting free throws, or else he pops a 122 ORtg, which would be the best offense in history. On isolation.

Eh and I'd say no passing is a MUCH bigger advantage for Harden on defense, transforming a complete dumbo IRL into a very good defender in this setting. His Airness can get on his grill as much as he wants, that's the whole point of a stepback.

Also, according to Madonna Jordan probably needs those three extra inches, so I'd say let's give them to him.

[Gooner]

So Magic manhandled him in the post, because he's the GOAT?

That's an exaggeration. Magic was one of the best post players and he could score on anybody. He scored on Jordan, but he didn't destroy him the way people seem to think.

Jordan was hopeless against Magic one on one in the finals. Magic took advnatage of this matchup a lot of times, Jordan didn't do a good job on him at all.

As you said, Magic is one of the best post players ever, it's not shameful that Jordan couldn't guard him. You just need to stop exaggarating everything about Jordan, he's not God. You act like Harden would have no hope against him, even though Harden is the best isolation scorer of the last 25 years, including old MJ.

When did I call Jordan God. I don't idolize any athlete. I just think, like most people, that he is the greatest player of all time, and there are many reasons for that.

Is Harden really the best iso player, or did he play most iso ball in a sytsem that revolved entirely around him? That's the question.

[mysticOscar]

That's all true, yeah - but not really the point. The point right now is - Is Jordan stronger than Zion Williamson?


Nah that's ridiculous. The best isolation scorer of the last 20 years does not need to "get lucky" to beat anybody.

In fact it's a testament to Jordan's quality of play that everyone picked him, me being the only one that did not, but with an implicit message of Jordan > Harden for anyone that has any modicum of reading comprehension. I quote: "probably lean Harden slightly over Jordan because 2 >>>>>>> 1. Dumb ruleset".

(You miss in your post that Harden can create and finish good 3pt looks basically at will, among other things. And a 40% 3-pt is worth 80% on this setting - less if winner keeps possession).

Harden being a 36% regular season and a 33% playoff 3pt shooter....I don't know why u keep bringing up 40% 3pt shot.

I can keep associating 6ft9 with MJ but it doesnt help with propping up MJs height advantage over Harden.

Also 3pt shooter basically gives up any 2nd chance possesion compared to around the basket, so your basic 40% = 80% used wrong values to begin with Harden and uses the wrong basic assumptions about its real equivelence.

Also his advantage on 3pt line means nothing in a 1v1 when his threat of a pass is not there and MJ can get on his grill from moment of possesion. MJ being one the greatest perimeter defender and his quickness can easily close the gap of Harden's 3pt advantage.

Everything else is almost an advantage to MJ, anyone with common sense would put MJ as heavy favourite.

.

I'm not saying Harden shoots 40% from three, it was just an example. More like a 37% on his peak, yeah. But I don't think you comprehend how good is being an 55 eFG% player on iso on while nearly doubling the next player in the league on volume, like 2018 Harden was. And that's not even counting free throws, or else he pops a 122 ORtg, which would be the best offense in history. On isolation.

Eh and I'd say no passing is a MUCH bigger advantage for Harden on defense, transforming a complete dumbo IRL into a very good defender in this setting. His Airness can get on his grill as much as he wants, that's the whole point of a stepback.

Also, according to Madonna Jordan probably needs those three extra inches, so I'd say let's give them to him.

I stopped reading at "no passing is a MUCH bigger advantage for Harden"

Let's leave it here

[70sFan]

That's an exaggeration. Magic was one of the best post players and he could score on anybody. He scored on Jordan, but he didn't destroy him the way people seem to think.

Jordan was hopeless against Magic one on one in the finals. Magic took advnatage of this matchup a lot of times, Jordan didn't do a good job on him at all.

As you said, Magic is one of the best post players ever, it's not shameful that Jordan couldn't guard him. You just need to stop exaggarating everything about Jordan, he's not God. You act like Harden would have no hope against him, even though Harden is the best isolation scorer of the last 25 years, including old MJ.

When did I call Jordan God. I don't idolize any athlete. I just think, like most people, that he is the greatest player of all time, and there are many reasons for that.

Is Harden really the best iso player, or did he play most iso ball in a sytsem that revolved entirely around him? That's the question.

No player produced the same volume and efficiency as Harden in isolation. I don't know how you can judge it in any other way. I can say that TJ McConnell is the greatest iso player ever, but he doesn't have the system built around him - would it be reasonable?

[Gregoire]

Harden would lose to Jordan in 1v1 even if it's 1-2 point system.

Let's keep this realistic for everyone that loves to jump on the anti jordan bandwagon.

Most 1 on 1 competition is you score you keep possesion. This is a big plus for Jordan.

James Harden is a 36% career 3pt shooter. A lot of those 3s are scored where opponents can't guard him up close cause of the threat of a pass. When you have MJ in your grill from the 3pt line, this advantage in the 3pt line is very limited.

The other thing is in 1 on 1, it requires a lot of mental toughness, lots of trash talking etc..
James Harden has shown to be not great in this area. Well we know where MJ stack in this department.

Also in 1 on 1 basketball, there's a lot more contact that are not called. A lot of Hardens scoring method is via fouls or selling the fouls. Whereas Jordan can generally plays through the contact and can still score.

But anyway, this thread doesn't disappoint and is what I expected from this forum

Yes, absolutely.

Dantley, Durant, Doctor J all have much better case over Lebron than Harden over MJ.

[70sFan]

Harden would lose to Jordan in 1v1 even if it's 1-2 point system.

Let's keep this realistic for everyone that loves to jump on the anti jordan bandwagon.

Most 1 on 1 competition is you score you keep possesion. This is a big plus for Jordan.

James Harden is a 36% career 3pt shooter. A lot of those 3s are scored where opponents can't guard him up close cause of the threat of a pass. When you have MJ in your grill from the 3pt line, this advantage in the 3pt line is very limited.

The other thing is in 1 on 1, it requires a lot of mental toughness, lots of trash talking etc..
James Harden has shown to be not great in this area. Well we know where MJ stack in this department.

Also in 1 on 1 basketball, there's a lot more contact that are not called. A lot of Hardens scoring method is via fouls or selling the fouls. Whereas Jordan can generally plays through the contact and can still score.

But anyway, this thread doesn't disappoint and is what I expected from this forum

Yes, absolutely.

Dantley, Durant, Doctor J all have much better case over Lebron than Harden over MJ.

Yes, because every criticism of Jordan is related to LeBron, right...?

[Colbinii]

Harden would lose to Jordan in 1v1 even if it's 1-2 point system.

Let's keep this realistic for everyone that loves to jump on the anti jordan bandwagon.

Most 1 on 1 competition is you score you keep possesion. This is a big plus for Jordan.

James Harden is a 36% career 3pt shooter. A lot of those 3s are scored where opponents can't guard him up close cause of the threat of a pass. When you have MJ in your grill from the 3pt line, this advantage in the 3pt line is very limited.

The other thing is in 1 on 1, it requires a lot of mental toughness, lots of trash talking etc..
James Harden has shown to be not great in this area. Well we know where MJ stack in this department.

Also in 1 on 1 basketball, there's a lot more contact that are not called. A lot of Hardens scoring method is via fouls or selling the fouls. Whereas Jordan can generally plays through the contact and can still score.

But anyway, this thread doesn't disappoint and is what I expected from this forum

Yes, absolutely.

Dantley, Durant, Doctor J all have much better case over Lebron than Harden over MJ.

Yes, because every criticism of Jordan is related to LeBron, right...?