Where did McHale rank in 1987?

Matt15 · Post #1 » by **Matt15** » Tue Nov 8, 2022 11:04 pm

Does he have a good case for top 5?

ice9 · Post #2 » by **ice9** » Wed Nov 9, 2022 1:07 am

Regular season only he has a strong argument for top 5. 1st team All NBA, 1st Team D, 4th in MVP voting, 6th in PPG, 5th in PER, 4th in WS/48, 10th in BPM, 6th in VORP. Boston finished with 59 wins, 2nd in the league. Magic, Larry, and Mike definitely ahead of him. Hakeem and Barkley probably the competition to round out the top 5. Wilkins and Thomas in the conversation, too.

He fell off in the playoffs, though. Not terrible, but not top 5.

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Narigo · Post #3 » by **Narigo** » Wed Nov 9, 2022 2:02 am

I have him 6th that year. I have Magic, Jordan, Bird, Hakeem and Barkley above him

prolific passer · Post #4 » by **prolific passer** » Wed Nov 9, 2022 4:18 am

ice9 wrote:Regular season only he has a strong argument for top 5. 1st team All NBA, 1st Team D, 4th in MVP voting, 6th in PPG, 5th in PER, 4th in WS/48, 10th in BPM, 6th in VORP. Boston finished with 59 wins, 2nd in the league. Magic, Larry, and Mike definitely ahead of him. Hakeem and Barkley probably the competition to round out the top 5. Wilkins and Thomas in the conversation, too.

He fell off in the playoffs, though. Not terrible, but not top 5.

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He still put up pretty good numbers in the playoffs despite playing on one good leg/foot. Spirited effort.
Magic, Bird and Jordan are top 3. Hakeem 4th. Guess he can round out the top 5.

70sFan · Post #5 » by **70sFan** » Wed Nov 9, 2022 7:06 am

I think I'd have him 5th, behind Magic/Bird/Jordan/Hakeem and just ahead of Barkley.

HeartBreakKid · Post #6 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Wed Nov 9, 2022 7:26 am

He has a case for sure. He's probably in the same tier as a few other guys for that 5th spot.

AEnigma · Post #7 » by **AEnigma** » Wed Nov 9, 2022 3:01 pm

prolific passer wrote:
ice9 wrote:Regular season only he has a strong argument for top 5. 1st team All NBA, 1st Team D, 4th in MVP voting, 6th in PPG, 5th in PER, 4th in WS/48, 10th in BPM, 6th in VORP. Boston finished with 59 wins, 2nd in the league. Magic, Larry, and Mike definitely ahead of him. Hakeem and Barkley probably the competition to round out the top 5. Wilkins and Thomas in the conversation, too.

He fell off in the playoffs, though. Not terrible, but not top 5.

He still put up pretty good numbers in the playoffs despite playing on one good leg/foot. Spirited effort.
Magic, Bird and Jordan are top 3. Hakeem 4th. Guess he can round out the top 5.

Not really seeing why Jordan would be automatically slotted in ahead of Hakeem. Hakeem anchored a top three defence, led a better team than Jordan primarily because of that defence, was coming off a Finals run, and clearly played at a higher level in the postseason (which for Ice at least is apparently disqualifying). Jordan was not even an especially reliable defender himself yet. Feels reminiscent of people taking McGrady and Kobe over Duncan and Garnett, or taking Harden and Durant over Giannis, because the point scoring is just “too much to ignore” or something.

That defensive edge is why I probably would slot McHale in at fifth. Clear top four, and no one after that four can provide elite scoring on elite efficiency coupled with variably decent to good big man defence.

ice9 · Post #8 » by **ice9** » Wed Nov 9, 2022 7:05 pm

Where did I say that postseason would disqualify Hakeem? Don't put words in my mouth.

Jordan was runner up in MVP voting, 1st or 2nd in advanced metrics, and #3 in RGMs retro player of the year project; comfortably ahead of Hakeem in all 3. No argument on Hakeem being better defensively, but to argue he was ahead of Jordan that year would be a minority viewpoint. Neither had deep postseason runs or significant difference in team success to move the needle.

I stand by Magic/Larry/Mike being the top tier with Hakeem/McHale/Barkley as the next tier (honorable mention to Wilkins).

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AEnigma · Post #9 » by **AEnigma** » Wed Nov 9, 2022 7:39 pm

ice9 wrote:Where did I say that postseason would disqualify Hakeem? Don't put words in my mouth.

You said McHale’s postseason basically was, which should be a great argument for Hakeem because he was much more impressive than Jordan in the postseason.

Jordan was runner up in MVP voting

So? Dominique was runner-up the prior year. That is not an argument.

1st or 2nd in advanced metrics

Boxscore metrics, ones which are famously inept at quantifying defence. Not much of an argument here either.

and #3 in RGMs retro player of the year project

And McHale finished sixth so I guess end of discussion right? OP can just go check and read the answer.
Still no actual argument.

comfortably ahead of Hakeem in all 3. No argument on Hakeem being better defensively, but to argue he was ahead of Jordan that year would be a minority viewpoint.

Because valuing defence is a minority viewpoint.

Neither had deep postseason runs or significant difference in team success to move the needle.

Hakeem went a round farther, the prior season went three rounds farther, averaged 29 points a game on 66% efficiency across ten games, and in Houston’s double overtime elimination game put up an incredibly efficient 49/25 with 6 blocks and only 2 turnovers. So that does not “move the needle”, but McHale’s injury-induced slight decline does. Interesting.

I stand by Magic/Larry/Mike being the top tier with Hakeem/McHale/Barkley as the next tier (honorable mention to Wilkins).

You can stand by whatever you want, but I am going to point out when there is not much basketball reasoning behind it at all.

ice9 · Post #10 » by **ice9** » Wed Nov 9, 2022 7:59 pm

1986 season <> 1987 season for Hakeem.

McHale's 87 playoffs (injury induced, which I admit I did forget initially) would be enough to drop him out of the top 5 given how close they are.

If all of those arguments are "not arguments", and "defense" is the be all end all, then OK. I readily admit Hakeem was a better defender. He was better than the rest of the players in the top 6-8 as well.

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Post #11 » by **trex_8063** » Wed Nov 9, 2022 10:23 pm

70sFan wrote:I think I'd have him 5th, behind Magic/Bird/Jordan/Hakeem and just ahead of Barkley.

This is how I rank it for that year too.

OhayoKD · Post #12 » by **OhayoKD** » Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:30 pm

ice9 wrote:Where did I say that postseason would disqualify Hakeem? Don't put words in my mouth.

Jordan was runner up in MVP voting, 1st or 2nd in advanced metrics, and #3 in RGMs retro player of the year project; comfortably ahead of Hakeem in all 3. No argument on Hakeem being better defensively, but to argue he was ahead of Jordan that year would be a minority viewpoint. Neither had deep postseason runs or significant difference in team success to move the needle.

I stand by Magic/Larry/Mike being the top tier with Hakeem/McHale/Barkley as the next tier (honorable mention to Wilkins).

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Well that's all some variance of "consensus". Surely we can have a discussion on the merit of play?

We know hakeem joined a similar team and was signifcantly more successful in year one and two. In year three Hakeem's second best player missed a large chunk of the season, his team had an actual coke crisis, and his team still won more than jordan's.

If jordan was better in 87, why were the rockets the better team?