How many seasons of Kobe would you trade for 10 seasons of Shaq

[ShotCreator]

Jokic solving defense in 2022 is one of the wildest takes I have seen here

Maybe our definitions of what solved means would give clarity here, even though I think I was pretty clear he has mentally figured out NBA defense. His awareness and ability to get all the defensive impact he can is at a pretty high level. And he’s made linear improvements.

But I’ll ask you, what do you think it would look like for Jokic to actually solve NBA defense? What would it amount to? First team all-defensive? Second? A DPOY?

Since you think he’s wildly far from doing it.

Well, I would expect someone who "solved defense" to be effectively a good defender for starters...

You talk about Jokic defending a lot of shots at the rim, but you don't mention that his DFG% on these shots is underwhelming to say the least. Jokic doesn't defend a lot of shots at the rim because he's a great rim protector, but because teams attack him and players don't feel intimidated by him inside. If you want to compare rim protection numbers from the last year, here he is compared to other rim protectors (inside 6 feet):

Nikola Jokic: 8.4 DFGA, 61.6 DFG%

Jakob Poeltl: 8.6 DFGA, 55.5 DFG%
Joel Embiid: 8.4 DFGA, 57.5 DFG%
Evan Mobley: 8.1 DFGA, 52.8 DFG%
Rudy Gobert: 7.2 DFGA, 50.7 DFG%
Jarrett Allen: 7.0 DFGA, 48.6 DFG%
Anthony Davis: 7.0 DFGA, 56.5 DFG%

Nikola Vucevic: 8.5 DFGA, 63.3 DFG%

Jokic is closer to Vucevic than he is to the real elite rim protectors here.

I get that comparing just DFGA and DFG% is flawed, but the pattern is very consistent across last 3 years - Jokic is always among the highest in terms of defended shots, but he's not good in terms of DFG%. Now the sample is really small, but the pattern continiues this season. This goes in line with what I have seen on the tape - Jokic isn't a good rim protector, period.

That wouldn't be a huge concern if he could switch into perimeter and defend quicker players, but he's just as bad at that.

For someone who "solved defense", I'd like to see him being effective in at least one postseason series on that end. I don't remember it happening in the last 3 years and Nuggets didn't only face Warriors during that period.

You can’t have conversations with people who don’t know enough to fill in what is obvious and what isn’t.
I would not mention Jokic defending tons of rim shots WHILE being an elite defensive rebounder to make a point about his…elite rim protection?

You think I would pose the idea that Jokic is an elite rim protector? Stop looking for the winning side of an argument for 2 seconds. I mention Jokic’ at-rim volume as a point to say he’s essentially a high usage defender. Really high. Really active. He’s led the league in kick balls the past few years.

His best rim protection season was as a more athletic rookie. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. His body is not suited to dominate in pure rim protection. But again, if I was talking to somebody to who either knew enough to fill that into their own mind and then be aware that I KNOW that they know that, these conservations wouldn’t get bogged down into the lowest common denominator like this.

Hypothetically, the kind of guy who has low ability to make recovery blocks above rim and average to below ability to defend on the perimeter, but still finds a way to be elite at several aspects of defense simultaneously as Jokic has been, HAS solved the general concept of playing effective defense.

To say Jokic is not an effective defender is some sort of disgrace any scouting and statistical ability to analyze these things. And the easiest way to get me to not want to be in this conversation so you “win” this argument, I guess.

I’m not about to try and teach a guy, who has the indignance of somebody who still uses tools of analysis from the 70’s, how to analyze the game he apparently knows much about.

[AEnigma]

That is an awful lot of words spent on identifying no strong defensive aptitude outside defensive rebounding.

Ah, wait, I almost forgot, he also gets a high number of steals and deflections for a centre. So I guess your argument is that he is a smarter but much less athletic Andre Drummond. Solved defence indeed.

[Texas Chuck]

Seems like this is mostly just bickering at this point. But I'll risk it. There can be truth to the notion that a player understands basketball at a level higher than anyone else on the court while having physical limitations that prevent them from dominating in every area. Nothing about that is unreasonable at all.

Sent from my SM-A125U using RealGM mobile app

[Jaivl]

What does "solve" even mean in this context? His mind knows the right thing to do, but his body can't follow? If so, what does that even matter? Lots of people who can read the game real-time on their heads, even non-players, but actually having the ability of doing things is another completely different thing. Otherwise what's the difference between Garnett and Ricky Rubio?

[70sFan]

Maybe our definitions of what solved means would give clarity here, even though I think I was pretty clear he has mentally figured out NBA defense. His awareness and ability to get all the defensive impact he can is at a pretty high level. And he’s made linear improvements.

But I’ll ask you, what do you think it would look like for Jokic to actually solve NBA defense? What would it amount to? First team all-defensive? Second? A DPOY?

Since you think he’s wildly far from doing it.

Well, I would expect someone who "solved defense" to be effectively a good defender for starters...

You talk about Jokic defending a lot of shots at the rim, but you don't mention that his DFG% on these shots is underwhelming to say the least. Jokic doesn't defend a lot of shots at the rim because he's a great rim protector, but because teams attack him and players don't feel intimidated by him inside. If you want to compare rim protection numbers from the last year, here he is compared to other rim protectors (inside 6 feet):

Nikola Jokic: 8.4 DFGA, 61.6 DFG%

Jakob Poeltl: 8.6 DFGA, 55.5 DFG%
Joel Embiid: 8.4 DFGA, 57.5 DFG%
Evan Mobley: 8.1 DFGA, 52.8 DFG%
Rudy Gobert: 7.2 DFGA, 50.7 DFG%
Jarrett Allen: 7.0 DFGA, 48.6 DFG%
Anthony Davis: 7.0 DFGA, 56.5 DFG%

Nikola Vucevic: 8.5 DFGA, 63.3 DFG%

Jokic is closer to Vucevic than he is to the real elite rim protectors here.

I get that comparing just DFGA and DFG% is flawed, but the pattern is very consistent across last 3 years - Jokic is always among the highest in terms of defended shots, but he's not good in terms of DFG%. Now the sample is really small, but the pattern continiues this season. This goes in line with what I have seen on the tape - Jokic isn't a good rim protector, period.

That wouldn't be a huge concern if he could switch into perimeter and defend quicker players, but he's just as bad at that.

For someone who "solved defense", I'd like to see him being effective in at least one postseason series on that end. I don't remember it happening in the last 3 years and Nuggets didn't only face Warriors during that period.

You can’t have conversations with people who don’t know enough to fill in what is obvious and what isn’t.
I would not mention Jokic defending tons of rim shots WHILE being an elite defensive rebounder to make a point about his…elite rim protection?

You think I would pose the idea that Jokic is an elite rim protector? Stop looking for the winning side of an argument for 2 seconds. I mention Jokic’ at-rim volume as a point to say he’s essentially a high usage defender. Really high. Really active. He’s led the league in kick balls the past few years.

His best rim protection season was as a more athletic rookie. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. His body is not suited to dominate in pure rim protection. But again, if I was talking to somebody to who either knew enough to fill that into their own mind and then be aware that I KNOW that they know that, these conservations wouldn’t get bogged down into the lowest common denominator like this.

Hypothetically, the kind of guy who has low ability to make recovery blocks above rim and average to below ability to defend on the perimeter, but still finds a way to be elite at several aspects of defense simultaneously as Jokic has been, HAS solved the general concept of playing effective defense.

To say Jokic is not an effective defender is some sort of disgrace any scouting and statistical ability to analyze these things. And the easiest way to get me to not want to be in this conversation so you “win” this argument, I guess.

I’m not about to try and teach a guy, who has the indignance of somebody who still uses tools of analysis from the 70’s, how to analyze the game he apparently knows much about.

I'm confused now, so your point is that Jokic "solved defense" because he's a great defensive rebounder while defending a lot of shots in the paint (ineffectively)?

Jokic is a high usage defender because teams attack him. Most starting centers are high usage defenders and often the mediocre ones have even higher usage than the elite ones because teams treat Jokic different than Gobert when they see him inside.

If your point is that Jokic "solved defense" in a way that he found out how to be useful in most situations despite his physical limitations, then this says basically nothing more than Jokic could defend some teams well, but can't really do that against better ones. I think you use strange language to say that Jokic is decent, but very flawed defender.

[OhayoKD]

Maybe our definitions of what solved means would give clarity here, even though I think I was pretty clear he has mentally figured out NBA defense. His awareness and ability to get all the defensive impact he can is at a pretty high level. And he’s made linear improvements.

But I’ll ask you, what do you think it would look like for Jokic to actually solve NBA defense? What would it amount to? First team all-defensive? Second? A DPOY?

Since you think he’s wildly far from doing it.

Well, I would expect someone who "solved defense" to be effectively a good defender for starters...

You talk about Jokic defending a lot of shots at the rim, but you don't mention that his DFG% on these shots is underwhelming to say the least. Jokic doesn't defend a lot of shots at the rim because he's a great rim protector, but because teams attack him and players don't feel intimidated by him inside. If you want to compare rim protection numbers from the last year, here he is compared to other rim protectors (inside 6 feet):

Nikola Jokic: 8.4 DFGA, 61.6 DFG%

Jakob Poeltl: 8.6 DFGA, 55.5 DFG%
Joel Embiid: 8.4 DFGA, 57.5 DFG%
Evan Mobley: 8.1 DFGA, 52.8 DFG%
Rudy Gobert: 7.2 DFGA, 50.7 DFG%
Jarrett Allen: 7.0 DFGA, 48.6 DFG%
Anthony Davis: 7.0 DFGA, 56.5 DFG%

Nikola Vucevic: 8.5 DFGA, 63.3 DFG%

Jokic is closer to Vucevic than he is to the real elite rim protectors here.

I get that comparing just DFGA and DFG% is flawed, but the pattern is very consistent across last 3 years - Jokic is always among the highest in terms of defended shots, but he's not good in terms of DFG%. Now the sample is really small, but the pattern continiues this season. This goes in line with what I have seen on the tape - Jokic isn't a good rim protector, period.

That wouldn't be a huge concern if he could switch into perimeter and defend quicker players, but he's just as bad at that.

For someone who "solved defense", I'd like to see him being effective in at least one postseason series on that end. I don't remember it happening in the last 3 years and Nuggets didn't only face Warriors during that period.

You can’t have conversations with people who don’t know enough to fill in what is obvious and what isn’t.
I would not mention Jokic defending tons of rim shots WHILE being an elite defensive rebounder to make a point about his…elite rim protection?

You think I would pose the idea that Jokic is an elite rim protector? Stop looking for the winning side of an argument for 2 seconds. I mention Jokic’ at-rim volume as a point to say he’s essentially a high usage defender. Really high. Really active. He’s led the league in kick balls the past few years.

His best rim protection season was as a more athletic rookie. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. His body is not suited to dominate in pure rim protection. But again, if I was talking to somebody to who either knew enough to fill that into their own mind and then be aware that I KNOW that they know that, these conservations wouldn’t get bogged down into the lowest common denominator like this.

Hypothetically, the kind of guy who has low ability to make recovery blocks above rim and average to below ability to defend on the perimeter, but still finds a way to be elite at several aspects of defense simultaneously as Jokic has been, HAS solved the general concept of playing effective defense.

To say Jokic is not an effective defender is some sort of disgrace any scouting and statistical ability to analyze these things. And the easiest way to get me to not want to be in this conversation so you “win” this argument, I guess.

I’m not about to try and teach a guy, who has the indignance of somebody who still uses tools of analysis from the 70’s, how to analyze the game he apparently knows much about.

You're getting fussed overs semantics

What people are saying is Jokic is not that impactful defensively, and taking "solved" to mean, "has made it impossible to effectively attack him".

If "solved" means to you, "he has maximized his own potential as a defender", that's a completely different matter. Maybe he has. But that certainly doesn't change that a lack of elite paint perotection is a weakness when you play a position which is typically relied upon for paint protection.

Additionally defensive rebounding offers little to no value defensively unless the defensive rebound is contested. So instead of posting drb's, why don't you tell us how much contested defensive rebounds he's winning

[OhayoKD]

I think there is for one, reason to believe, that Kobe's defense in the PS from say 06-10, was better than it was during the RS.

But also just looking at total career value metrics, Kobe's total career value comes out to the point where in order for him to have accumulated so much value he would have A) had to have been around a perennial MVP level B)Had outlier longevity, where his 11-13 seasons, were pretty much around the same value as 01-10, which I don't really buy.

For example,

Ben Taylor's Plus-Minus GOAT List (Goes to 2017); Scaled APM used for this

1. Lebron
2. KG
3. Duncan
4. Shaq
5. Dirk
6. CP3
7. Kobe
8. Kidd
9. Wade
10. Nash

Disclaimer that ben's corp values(even without port adjustment) aren't actually derived from APM. In fact if one was to go by APM, they'd find massive disaprities in apm scores and "plus-minus" values given for certain seasons.

APM is factored into the formula, but the inputs are entirely his opinion. That being said, I don't actually have much reason to think Ben's seasonal inputs for Kobe overrate him.

Yeah, but this career value measure I am quoting here was derived from APM as he mentioned in the Methodologies of the page.

It has nothing to do with his personal valuations. Rather, it is an objective accumulation projection.

elaborate please. i never heard of this

[OhayoKD]

Jokic solving defense in 2022 is one of the wildest takes I have seen here

Maybe our definitions of what solved means would give clarity here, even though I think I was pretty clear he has mentally figured out NBA defense. His awareness and ability to get all the defensive impact he can is at a pretty high level. And he’s made linear improvements.

But I’ll ask you, what do you think it would look like for Jokic to actually solve NBA defense? What would it amount to? First team all-defensive? Second? A DPOY?

Since you think he’s wildly far from doing it.

For someone who "solved defense", I'd like to see him being effective in at least one postseason series on that end. I don't remember it happening in the last 3 years and Nuggets didn't only face Warriors during that period.

Okay, to be absolutely fair, Jokic did kind of turn into Bill Russell vs the clippers in 2020

[LukaTheGOAT]

Disclaimer that ben's corp values(even without port adjustment) aren't actually derived from APM. In fact if one was to go by APM, they'd find massive disaprities in apm scores and "plus-minus" values given for certain seasons.

APM is factored into the formula, but the inputs are entirely his opinion. That being said, I don't actually have much reason to think Ben's seasonal inputs for Kobe overrate him.

Yeah, but this career value measure I am quoting here was derived from APM as he mentioned in the Methodologies of the page.

It has nothing to do with his personal valuations. Rather, it is an objective accumulation projection.

elaborate please. i never heard of this

Is this behind a paywall? https://thinkingbasketball.net/page/49/

[LukaTheGOAT]

There seemed to be questions regarding how much Kobe lifted the Lakers offense.

2006-10 LAL PS:

+4.58 rORTG in 3255 min WITH Kobe on floor
50.02% from 2
35.46% from 3

-5.70 rORTG in 562 min WITHOUT Kobe
47.39% from 2
34.02% from 3

[70sFan]

Maybe our definitions of what solved means would give clarity here, even though I think I was pretty clear he has mentally figured out NBA defense. His awareness and ability to get all the defensive impact he can is at a pretty high level. And he’s made linear improvements.

But I’ll ask you, what do you think it would look like for Jokic to actually solve NBA defense? What would it amount to? First team all-defensive? Second? A DPOY?

Since you think he’s wildly far from doing it.

For someone who "solved defense", I'd like to see him being effective in at least one postseason series on that end. I don't remember it happening in the last 3 years and Nuggets didn't only face Warriors during that period.

Okay, to be absolutely fair, Jokic did kind of turn into Bill Russell vs the clippers in 2020

I remember him having a very strong game 7 on defense, but turning into Bill Russell is a massive hyperbole. What do you mean by that?

[OhayoKD]

For someone who "solved defense", I'd like to see him being effective in at least one postseason series on that end. I don't remember it happening in the last 3 years and Nuggets didn't only face Warriors during that period.

Okay, to be absolutely fair, Jokic did kind of turn into Bill Russell vs the clippers in 2020

I remember him having a very strong game 7 on defense, but turning into Bill Russell is a massive hyperbole. What do you mean by that?

i meant he was able to shut down the clippers in the paint and also was making a bunch of plays at the perimiter. At least in game 7, admittedly facing relatively shorter interior threats, i think he put elite big level impact. Never did it again sadly