What would prime Wilt Chamberlain average in today's era?

[ThaRegul8r]

Why was a five-year old thread resurrected when people at the time wanted it to die? On some forums, "gravedigging" results in the thread being locked. If no one's commented on it in over five years, obviously it ran its course.

[penbeast0]

I don't have a problem with this; there are new posters here with new ideas on this perennial debate. Admittedly it isn't as fun as digging up the "Is Stephon Curry going to make it in the NBA" thread with all the roast crow being served.

[thizznation]

great thread

[RayBan-Sematra]

Make no mistake, he is the most physically powerful player ever to play in the NBA.

I disagree.
When looking at raw strength & power Shaq is alone at the top.

Tier 1 : Shaq
(gap)
(gap)
Tier 2 : Wilt, Gilmore...

From watching Wilt I don't get the impression he was on Shaquille's level when it came to the level of brute strength and power he could employ.
Older Wilt does impress me in certain videos but only to the point where I might rank him as the leader of the #2 tier with guys like Gilmore and a few other really strong guys.
I don't think he really sets him self apart the way Shaq does.
People forget he had really long legs and was top heavy. That kind of body build isn't ideal for leveraging ones weight though it is useful for other athletic endeavors like track & field.

I used to think that the stories of his weight room strength were myth until I met Arnold Schwartzenagger (sp) while working as a cameraman on the Terminator movie. Arnold told me that Wilt could bench 500 pounds without too much trouble, and that he put many hardcore lifters and WWF guys to shame.

Does bench press really mean much when it comes to "basketball strength" etc...?
How much a player can dead lift or leg press would be seem more relevant to me.
Either way there is no record of how much Wilt could bench during his playing career.
The fact that he got deeper into weight lifting after he retired from ball and may have benched 400+ with Arnie or whatever is cool but it doesn't mean he could have done that during his playing career.

Plus it isn't like 400-500 is out of the reach of other NBA athletes.
Shaq himself was reported to bench 450 around his Peak.

[SkyHookFTW]

Make no mistake, he is the most physically powerful player ever to play in the NBA.

I disagree.
When looking at raw strength & power Shaq is alone at the top.

Tier 1 : Shaq
(gap)
(gap)
Tier 2 : Wilt, Gilmore...

From watching Wilt I don't get the impression he was on Shaquille's level when it came to the level of brute strength and power he could employ.
Older Wilt does impress me in certain videos but only to the point where I might rank him as the leader of the #2 tier with guys like Gilmore and a few other really strong guys.
I don't think he really sets him self apart the way Shaq does.
People forget he had really long legs and was top heavy. That kind of body build isn't ideal for leveraging ones weight though it is useful for other athletic endeavors like track & field.

I used to think that the stories of his weight room strength were myth until I met Arnold Schwartzenagger (sp) while working as a cameraman on the Terminator movie. Arnold told me that Wilt could bench 500 pounds without too much trouble, and that he put many hardcore lifters and WWF guys to shame.

Does bench press really mean much when it comes to "basketball strength" etc...?
How much a player can dead lift or leg press would be seem more relevant to me.
Either way there is no record of how much Wilt could bench during his playing career.
The fact that he got deeper into weight lifting after he retired from ball and may have benched 400+ with Arnie or whatever is cool but it doesn't mean he could have done that during his playing career.

Plus it isn't like 400-500 is out of the reach of other NBA athletes.
Shaq himself was reported to bench 450 around his Peak.

The fact that Wilt could bench more and do other body work that put lifters to shame negates your physical power argument. The man was asked by the USOC to compete in the decathalon. Leg strength? He was a high jump champion in college 3 times. He held, for many years, the high school shot put record for high school kids in Pennsylvania--and that was when he was a skinny kid. He was a very fast 440 man, a race which is basically a 1/4 mile sprint. All of that versatility points to insane leg strength. The man had natural strength the way few others in any sport ever had. His endurance was off the charts, also an indicator of overall health and strength. Wilt was a physical freak, period. The only thing Shaq has over Wilt is thickness (I don't mean fat here).

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Make no mistake, he is the most physically powerful player ever to play in the NBA.

I disagree.
When looking at raw strength & power Shaq is alone at the top.

From watching Wilt I don't get the impression he was on Shaquille's level when it came to the level of brute strength and power he could employ.
Older Wilt does impress me in certain videos but only to the point where I might rank him as the leader of the #2 tier with guys like Gilmore and a few other really strong guys.
I don't think he really sets him self apart the way Shaq does.
People forget he had really long legs and was top heavy. That kind of body build isn't ideal for leveraging ones weight though it is useful for other athletic endeavors like track & field.

I used to think that the stories of his weight room strength were myth until I met Arnold Schwartzenagger (sp) while working as a cameraman on the Terminator movie. Arnold told me that Wilt could bench 500 pounds without too much trouble, and that he put many hardcore lifters and WWF guys to shame.

Does bench press really mean much when it comes to "basketball strength" etc...?
How much a player can dead lift or leg press would be seem more relevant to me.


Plus it isn't like 400-500 is out of the reach of other NBA athletes.
Shaq himself was reported to bench 450 around his Peak.

I agree with you. I don't think Wilt had the power of Shaquille. ( even though fantasy Wilt could leep over buildings in a single bound and stop a speeding freight train with his pinky finger; oh wait I am confusing Wilt with Superman or something)

Young Wilt and old Wilt look like two different players. Old Wilt has the power and young Wilt has the speed.

I agree about lower body strength being more relevant than upper body strength.

In defense of Wilt''s power, using power the way Shaq often used power was against the rules during Wilt's career. Shaq would have fouled out of every game until he adjusted.

[penbeast0]

Make no mistake, he is the most physically powerful player ever to play in the NBA.

I disagree.
When looking at raw strength & power Shaq is alone at the top.

Tier 1 : Shaq
(gap)
(gap)
Tier 2 : Wilt, Gilmore...

From watching Wilt I don't get the impression he was on Shaquille's level when it came to the level of brute strength and power he could employ.
Older Wilt does impress me in certain videos but only to the point where I might rank him as the leader of the #2 tier with guys like Gilmore and a few other really strong guys.
I don't think he really sets him self apart the way Shaq does.
People forget he had really long legs and was top heavy. That kind of body build isn't ideal for leveraging ones weight though it is useful for other athletic endeavors like track & field.

I used to think that the stories of his weight room strength were myth until I met Arnold Schwartzenagger (sp) while working as a cameraman on the Terminator movie. Arnold told me that Wilt could bench 500 pounds without too much trouble, and that he put many hardcore lifters and WWF guys to shame.

Does bench press really mean much when it comes to "basketball strength" etc...?
How much a player can dead lift or leg press would be seem more relevant to me.
Either way there is no record of how much Wilt could bench during his playing career.
The fact that he got deeper into weight lifting after he retired from ball and may have benched 400+ with Arnie or whatever is cool but it doesn't mean he could have done that during his playing career.

Plus it isn't like 400-500 is out of the reach of other NBA athletes.
Shaq himself was reported to bench 450 around his Peak.

The fact that Wilt could bench more and do other body work that put lifters to shame negates your physical power argument. The man was asked by the USOC to compete in the decathalon. Leg strength? He was a high jump champion in college 3 times. He held, for many years, the high school shot put record for high school kids in Pennsylvania--and that was when he was a skinny kid. He was a very fast 440 man, a race which is basically a 1/4 mile sprint. All of that versatility points to insane leg strength. The man had natural strength the way few others in any sport ever had. His endurance was off the charts, also an indicator of overall health and strength. Wilt was a physical freak, period. The only thing Shaq has over Wilt is thickness (I don't mean fat here).

Someone once said (Napoleon: "God is on the side of the big battalions?") that size was it's own strategy. Shaq was never a skinny kid and yeah, he played with a lot more brute strength than Wilt or anyone else I've ever seen. Some of that is probably body type but most of it is that Shaq revelled in his size/strength advantage whereas Wilt was insecure about being seen as just a physical freak and tried to play a skill/finesse game more with his fallaway jumper as his go to shot.

[SkyHookFTW]

I disagree.
When looking at raw strength & power Shaq is alone at the top.

Tier 1 : Shaq
(gap)
(gap)
Tier 2 : Wilt, Gilmore...

From watching Wilt I don't get the impression he was on Shaquille's level when it came to the level of brute strength and power he could employ.
Older Wilt does impress me in certain videos but only to the point where I might rank him as the leader of the #2 tier with guys like Gilmore and a few other really strong guys.
I don't think he really sets him self apart the way Shaq does.
People forget he had really long legs and was top heavy. That kind of body build isn't ideal for leveraging ones weight though it is useful for other athletic endeavors like track & field.



Does bench press really mean much when it comes to "basketball strength" etc...?
How much a player can dead lift or leg press would be seem more relevant to me.
Either way there is no record of how much Wilt could bench during his playing career.
The fact that he got deeper into weight lifting after he retired from ball and may have benched 400+ with Arnie or whatever is cool but it doesn't mean he could have done that during his playing career.

Plus it isn't like 400-500 is out of the reach of other NBA athletes.
Shaq himself was reported to bench 450 around his Peak.

The fact that Wilt could bench more and do other body work that put lifters to shame negates your physical power argument. The man was asked by the USOC to compete in the decathalon. Leg strength? He was a high jump champion in college 3 times. He held, for many years, the high school shot put record for high school kids in Pennsylvania--and that was when he was a skinny kid. He was a very fast 440 man, a race which is basically a 1/4 mile sprint. All of that versatility points to insane leg strength. The man had natural strength the way few others in any sport ever had. His endurance was off the charts, also an indicator of overall health and strength. Wilt was a physical freak, period. The only thing Shaq has over Wilt is thickness (I don't mean fat here).

Someone once said (Napoleon: "God is on the side of the big battalions?") that size was it's own strategy. Shaq was never a skinny kid and yeah, he played with a lot more brute strength than Wilt or anyone else I've ever seen. Some of that is probably body type but most of it is that Shaq revelled in his size/strength advantage whereas Wilt was insecure about being seen as just a physical freak and tried to play a skill/finesse game more with his fallaway jumper as his go to shot.

While this is true, as Bill Russell himself said, Russell also said that Wilt was always afraid he'd lose his temper and literally kill someone on the court due to his unbelievable strength. It is documented that Wilt unintentionally injured other players just through the normal course of games (dunking and blocking shots) Shaq has little choice to play a physical game straight up because he didn't have any other game to speak of. He didn't have Wilt's shot selection, his speed, nor his endurance. And quite frankly, he didn't have Wilt's core either. There are way too many people who assume that size is the determining factor when it comes to brute strength, and that that type of body would dominate in a physical contest. This has been shown in many sports to be wrong on more than one occasion. Shaq would beat down any center who ever played the game except for one, and that one is Wilt.

Make no mistake...if I had a chance to build a franchise starting with one payer, it would be KAJ, Wilt, or Shaq over anyone else. The beast in the middle is the hardest player to find anymore.

[RayBan-Sematra]

While this is true, as Bill Russell himself said, Russell also said that Wilt was always afraid he'd lose his temper and literally kill someone on the court due to his unbelievable strength.

Well in fairness that sounds silly to me.
I mean did anyone really expect Wilt or Shaq to kill people.
They were both nice people to begin with.
Growing up I was always the biggest/strongest of my friends but they never said I might murder someone because of my size & strength.

It is documented that Wilt unintentionally injured other players just through the normal course of games (dunking and blocking shots)

Same is true for a young Shaq I believe.

Shaq has little choice to play a physical game straight up because he didn't have any other game to speak of.

Let us not act like Shaq just dunked the ball. Maybe 30% of his FG's were dunks.
He had tremendous footwork in the lowpost, beautiful spinmoves and he was a master of both ball & body fakes. He also of course had his jumphook which he had developed nicely by his 3rd year or so.
I really dislike when people try to paint Shaq as unskilled. Sure he played a power game but it was his combination of power & immense skill that made him so brutally effective as a scorer even when compared to the greatest of the greats.

He didn't have Wilt's shot selection

I don't think there is a big difference in the simple number of moves they could employ and Shaq may have mastered a wider variety of moves then Wilt did who seemed to vary his moves less based on the footage I have seen though in fairness little footage exists.
Beyond that I think Shaq was considerably more fluid and skilled in the low post which is why I consider him the greater scorer of the two.

his speed, nor his endurance.

Endurance sure. Wilt was legendary for his stamina. On the other hand Shaq especially in his youthful and early Peak years never had problems playing big minutes and was known to go hard even late in games.

Speed I would say is more of a wash. Young and even early 00's Shaq could run the floor like a gazelle.
Comparing him to young Wilt doing similar things (running the break) I don't see much of a difference in speed.

And quite frankly, he didn't have Wilt's core either.

Disagree. Shaq had bigger legs and a bigger, more stable core.
Not to say Wilt had a bad core but Shaq probably has the strongest core in NBA history.
Anyone who watched him can tell you he was truly immovable. You'd see him fly into 4 defenders and knock them down like bowling pins while he'd barely have been budged.
Wilt on the other hand I have seen concede ground to Russell and even seemed to have trouble bullying a young Jabbar at times which is strange but I won't use cherry picked examples to demean the man.

Barkley is another guy who comes to mind when I think of guys with really strong & stable cores.

There are way too many people who assume that size is the determining factor when it comes to brute strength, and that that type of body would dominate in a physical contest.

I certainly do not assume such things but having watched Shaq and some Wilt I can say that Shaq to me seemed to display a much greater level of strength & power.
Obviously Wilt still impressed me greatly since I currently rank his elder self as #2 on the power list but Shaq to me still impressed me far more then Wilt or anyone else.

Also one should not dismiss size when it comes to basketball strength.
Shaq having such huge legs and such a huge/stable core is a big reason why he was able to overpower most.
Infact one of the few guys who bothered Shaq was an older Yao who had truly enormous legs and also an enormous core. So while I agree with your premise size does still matter.

Shaq would beat down any center who ever played the game except for one, and that one is Wilt.

Wish Shaq and Wilt could have played in the same era.
Those two guys going at eachother would have shaken the earth.

[penbeast0]

Well, a generation did see Wilt go head to head with Russell; can't get much better than that.

[tsherkin]

Well, a generation did see Wilt go head to head with Russell; can't get much better than that.

Froma 1v1 POV, Shaq/Wilt would be more engaging, though the Wilt/Russ matchups were of course miraculous even still. (IMO, of course)

[SkyHookFTW]

While this is true, as Bill Russell himself said, Russell also said that Wilt was always afraid he'd lose his temper and literally kill someone on the court due to his unbelievable strength.

Well in fairness that sounds silly to me.
I mean did anyone really expect Wilt or Shaq to kill people.
They were both nice people to begin with.
Growing up I was always the biggest/strongest of my friends but they never said I might murder someone because of my size & strength.

It is documented that Wilt unintentionally injured other players just through the normal course of games (dunking and blocking shots)

Same is true for a young Shaq I believe.

Shaq has little choice to play a physical game straight up because he didn't have any other game to speak of.

Let us not act like Shaq just dunked the ball. Maybe 30% of his FG's were dunks.
He had tremendous footwork in the lowpost, beautiful spinmoves and he was a master of both ball & body fakes. He also of course had his jumphook which he had developed nicely by his 3rd year or so.
I really dislike when people try to paint Shaq as unskilled. Sure he played a power game but it was his combination of power & immense skill that made him so brutally effective as a scorer even when compared to the greatest of the greats.

He didn't have Wilt's shot selection

I don't think there is a big difference in the simple number of moves they could employ and Shaq may have mastered a wider variety of moves then Wilt did who seemed to vary his moves less based on the footage I have seen though in fairness little footage exists.
Beyond that I think Shaq was considerably more fluid and skilled in the low post which is why I consider him the greater scorer of the two.

his speed, nor his endurance.

Endurance sure. Wilt was legendary for his stamina. On the other hand Shaq especially in his youthful and early Peak years never had problems playing big minutes and was known to go hard even late in games.

Speed I would say is more of a wash. Young and even early 00's Shaq could run the floor like a gazelle.
Comparing him to young Wilt doing similar things (running the break) I don't see much of a difference in speed.

And quite frankly, he didn't have Wilt's core either.

Disagree. Shaq had bigger legs and a bigger, more stable core.
Not to say Wilt had a bad core but Shaq probably has the strongest core in NBA history.
Anyone who watched him can tell you he was truly immovable. You'd see him fly into 4 defenders and knock them down like bowling pins while he'd barely have been budged.
Wilt on the other hand I have seen concede ground to Russell and even seemed to have trouble bullying a young Jabbar at times which is strange but I won't use cherry picked examples to demean the man.

Barkley is another guy who comes to mind when I think of guys with really strong & stable cores.

There are way too many people who assume that size is the determining factor when it comes to brute strength, and that that type of body would dominate in a physical contest.

I certainly do not assume such things but having watched Shaq and some Wilt I can say that Shaq to me seemed to display a much greater level of strength & power.
Obviously Wilt still impressed me greatly since I currently rank his elder self as #2 on the power list but Shaq to me still impressed me far more then Wilt or anyone else.

Also one should not dismiss size when it comes to basketball strength.
Shaq having such huge legs and such a huge/stable core is a big reason why he was able to overpower most.
Infact one of the few guys who bothered Shaq was an older Yao who had truly enormous legs and also an enormous core. So while I agree with your premise size does still matter.

Shaq would beat down any center who ever played the game except for one, and that one is Wilt.

Wish Shaq and Wilt could have played in the same era.
Those two guys going at eachother would have shaken the earth.

Have you seen Wilt play in person? I am tending to believe you didn't. Conceding ground to Russell should have been expected, as Russell, a track star in his own right, had a very strong lower body. Wilt certainly didn't win the position battle all the time. Speaking from experience, it is amazing how athletes who were also accomplished in track and field have that strength...core baby. Core is not just having big legs. I will assume you know that.

I watched every great Laker center (you can probably tell from my forum name who my favorite was). I liked them all. Shaq was not as fluid as Wilt, and to say that he was as fast up and down the court is simply wrong. Yes, Shaq could do just about anything he wanted to around the basket, as few could contest him based on size and strength. Shaq did have nice effective moves. But so could Wilt, and he could do it all game for a decent part of his career. Even at age 36, Wilt, though his offensive game was not what it once was, was still a force on the defensive end, and still got up and down the court. Prime Wilt would run prime Shaq into the ground and have him sucking air in the second half. This is not a knock on Shaq: Wilt was just too-well conditioned.

Wilt and Shaq were the most powerful men in the game. Ultimately, in a battle between the two, fairly evenly matched men in most phases of the game, the better conditioned man would win in the end. It works that way in sports. I'll take Wilt #1, Shaq 1A, and my man KAJ 1B. It's not like you can wrong with either one of them.

[penbeast0]

Well, a generation did see Wilt go head to head with Russell; can't get much better than that.

Froma 1v1 POV, Shaq/Wilt would be more engaging, though the Wilt/Russ matchups were of course miraculous even still. (IMO, of course)

I don't know, I love the contrast of styles. It's why Shaq v. Hakeem is more engaging (possibly) than Hakeem v. DRob; the unstoppable force v. the immovable object.

[tsherkin]

Well, a generation did see Wilt go head to head with Russell; can't get much better than that.

Froma 1v1 POV, Shaq/Wilt would be more engaging, though the Wilt/Russ matchups were of course miraculous even still. (IMO, of course)

I don't know, I love the contrast of styles. It's why Shaq v. Hakeem is more engaging (possibly) than Hakeem v. DRob; the unstoppable force v. the immovable object.

To each his own, certainly, but I feel that the direct matchup instead of the aggressive/passive matchup would be more interesting. I'd love to see how the two titans would handle one another. I'm completely on board with the "Shaq had a better base and was more basketball-powerful than Wilt" train, but Wilt was no slouch, and he was big, strong and had a few crafty moves of his own to pull against Diesel. Would have been a riot.

For me, Russ/Wilt was really more "Celtics/Wilt's team" than the individual matchup, since Wilt typically did pretty well and Russ' biggest impact came elsewhere in the game.

[ty 4191]

Prime (1960-1966) in today's game: 32/16/5 with about 5 blocks per game.

Later career: 15/15/9 with about 3-4 blocks per game.

[tsherkin]

Prime (1960-1966) in today's game: 32/16/5 with about 5 blocks per game.

Later career: 15/15/9 with about 3-4 blocks per game.

It's been nearly a decade, lol. You must have gone DIGGING to go after this, lol.

[Narigo]

25-30 ppg

12-15 rebounds . 3-5assists, 2-3 blocks a game