Lowry 19 or Holiday 21

[SpreeS]

Who was better on their championship runs? Who has better career?

[dooki667]

oh I like it. If Jrue would have shot closer to his average which for the year was .592 ts i'm taking him. However those playoffs he shot .482 ts. That's a huge difference I love his d I think he has a playmaking advantage as well but he just struggled most nights shooting. On d he had CP3 Tre young and 4 games of Kyrie so he was working but Kyle played good d as well so I don't think Jrue can make up for that shooting. I look forward to hearing y'all's thoughts

[cupcakesnake]

Difficult to compare.
- Jrue was a heavy on-ball player that year, running pick & roll with Giannis on offense, and drawing a major defensive assignment on defense. He wracked up assists but mostly struggled when asked to generate points for himself.
- Lowry by contrast was a little off-ball demon. Running around screens for quick 3s, throwing a lot of quick passes, drawing a ton of charges and winning a lot of loose balls. He didn't soak up as much pick & roll or iso as Jrue, and was a much more efficient shooter. He also drew more fouls while also fouling the crap out of everybody.
- Both were sort of co-2nd options next to Khris Middleton and Pascal Siakam.

I would take 2019 Lowry's offense. They played different roles and I think Lowry was much more successful in his role than Jrue was. I'd probably prefer Jrue's monster strong defense, even if Lowry has a bunch of sneaky edges off the ball.

[migya]

Holiday is much better defensively and at worst equal offensively. He playmakes well also. Much better for a championship caliber team.

[PistolPeteJR]

Holiday is much better defensively and at worst equal offensively. He playmakes well also. Much better for a championship caliber team.

Listen I know I'm a Raps guy, and I can only ask you to trust that I'm not being a homer, but comparing '19 Lowry to '21 Holiday and saying they were "at worst equal offensively" is very dishonest. '19 Lowry >> '21 Holiday on offense. On defense, I'd give Holiday the edge.

[migya]

Holiday is much better defensively and at worst equal offensively. He playmakes well also. Much better for a championship caliber team.

Listen I know I'm a Raps guy, and I can only ask you to trust that I'm not being a homer, but comparing '19 Lowry to '21 Holiday and saying they were "at worst equal offensively" is very dishonest. '19 Lowry >> '21 Holiday on offense. On defense, I'd give Holiday the edge.

I hold your view with value, having much of Lowry. I can see that shooting wise he is better but Holiday has probably got more ways of scoring and he can lead the offense better I think.

[Colbinii]

Holiday is much better defensively and at worst equal offensively. He playmakes well also. Much better for a championship caliber team.

Listen I know I'm a Raps guy, and I can only ask you to trust that I'm not being a homer, but comparing '19 Lowry to '21 Holiday and saying they were "at worst equal offensively" is very dishonest. '19 Lowry >> '21 Holiday on offense. On defense, I'd give Holiday the edge.

I hold your view with value, having much of Lowry. I can see that shooting wise he is better but Holiday has probably got more ways of scoring and he can lead the offense better I think.

Lowry has, over the course of his career, led significantly better offenses. Lowry has a career history of being signifciantly more impactful offensively as the driving force compared to Holiday.

This in itself could be a strong argument for Holiday being a better a secondary shot creator, but Lowry showed he too could be an excellent Robin next to Kawhi Leonard as Jrue showed next to Giannis...except Lowry was better offensively in the 2019 post-season compared to Jrue.

[migya]

Listen I know I'm a Raps guy, and I can only ask you to trust that I'm not being a homer, but comparing '19 Lowry to '21 Holiday and saying they were "at worst equal offensively" is very dishonest. '19 Lowry >> '21 Holiday on offense. On defense, I'd give Holiday the edge.

I hold your view with value, having much of Lowry. I can see that shooting wise he is better but Holiday has probably got more ways of scoring and he can lead the offense better I think.

Lowry has, over the course of his career, led significantly better offenses. Lowry has a career history of being signifciantly more impactful offensively as the driving force compared to Holiday.

This in itself could be a strong argument for Holiday being a better a secondary shot creator, but Lowry showed he too could be an excellent Robin next to Kawhi Leonard as Jrue showed next to Giannis...except Lowry was better offensively in the 2019 post-season compared to Jrue.

Giannis being more ball dominant than Kawhi is the difference. Holiday has risen the last two years offensively and is starting to look like the best two way PG of the lat ten years.

[VanWest82]

It's not that ridiculous of a question. Using RAPTOR's full season WAR, Jrue racked up 10.3 wins (9th overall) vs. 13.5 wins (8th overall) for Lowry. Jrue was 25th in RAPM. Lowry was 10th. Jrue was likely underrated defensively. Kyle was likely underrated offensively (except that Sixers series, barf).

I can't claim to have watched all the Bucks games in 2021. I can claim to have watched all the Raptors games in 2019. Kawhi was the stud that put them over the top in the playoffs, but Kyle held the team together all year. He was the best Raptor in the regular season. I don't think we can say the same thing about Jrue. Kyle > Jrue.

[VanWest82]

Holiday has risen the last two years offensively and is starting to look like the best two way PG of the lat ten years.

CP3333333333333eeek

[dooki667]

It's not that ridiculous of a question. Using RAPTOR's full season WAR, Jrue racked up 10.3 wins (9th overall) vs. 13.5 wins (8th overall) for Lowry. Jrue was 25th in RAPM. Lowry was 10th. Jrue was likely underrated defensively. Kyle was likely underrated offensively (except that Sixers series, barf).

I can't claim to have watched all the Bucks games in 2021. I can claim to have watched all the Raptors games in 2019. Kawhi was the stud that put them over the top in the playoffs, but Kyle held the team together all year. He was the best Raptor in the regular season. I don't think we can say the same thing about Jrue. Kyle > Jrue.

Can you expand I why u think Kyle was better than Kawhi during the season. There was only a 5 games played difference 65 to 60. I didn't watch many Toronto games I'm not saying ur wrong or anything just want ur opinion which I respect.

[VanWest82]

It's not that ridiculous of a question. Using RAPTOR's full season WAR, Jrue racked up 10.3 wins (9th overall) vs. 13.5 wins (8th overall) for Lowry. Jrue was 25th in RAPM. Lowry was 10th. Jrue was likely underrated defensively. Kyle was likely underrated offensively (except that Sixers series, barf).

I can't claim to have watched all the Bucks games in 2021. I can claim to have watched all the Raptors games in 2019. Kawhi was the stud that put them over the top in the playoffs, but Kyle held the team together all year. He was the best Raptor in the regular season. I don't think we can say the same thing about Jrue. Kyle > Jrue.

Can you expand I why u think Kyle was better than Kawhi during the season. There was only a 5 games played difference 65 to 60. I didn't watch many Toronto games I'm not saying ur wrong or anything just want ur opinion which I respect.

It's a case where the stats were somewhat misleading imo. Kawhi certainly had the higher ceiling in the RS, and Raps won a bunch of games as a direct result of his superstar ability to take over.

BUT...Kawhi didn't make his teammates better. If anything, it was an awkward fit where everyone else had to accommodate his ISO game. Raps had to basically run two different offenses: the Kawhi offense and their regular offense. Kyle was the go between that made it work. Plus, Kawhi was recovering that year. Defensively, he really picked his spots. There were a lot Lebron-esk games where he'd just stand in one place defensively while Pascal and Kyle and Danny Green were forced to chase and recover all over the court. And then Kawhi would turn it on in the important spots and shut down the best opposing player down the stretch and get the credit.

Kawhi's "flip the switch" mode was really impressive, but it definitely impacted that team as they took on his personality as leader / best player. They should have won way more than 58 games. I get that some of this isn't perfectly reflected in Raps record in games Kyle/Kawhi missed (edit: they were 17-5 in games Kawhi missed; 10-6 in games Kyle missed). It was a case where you had to watch the games to see the different ways Kawhi was negatively impacting the team, both when he was playing and then when he wasn't, even though his individual performances ranged from good to brilliant. PO Kawhi was another story. Absolute stud.

[dooki667]

It's not that ridiculous of a question. Using RAPTOR's full season WAR, Jrue racked up 10.3 wins (9th overall) vs. 13.5 wins (8th overall) for Lowry. Jrue was 25th in RAPM. Lowry was 10th. Jrue was likely underrated defensively. Kyle was likely underrated offensively (except that Sixers series, barf).

I can't claim to have watched all the Bucks games in 2021. I can claim to have watched all the Raptors games in 2019. Kawhi was the stud that put them over the top in the playoffs, but Kyle held the team together all year. He was the best Raptor in the regular season. I don't think we can say the same thing about Jrue. Kyle > Jrue.

Can you expand I why u think Kyle was better than Kawhi during the season. There was only a 5 games played difference 65 to 60. I didn't watch many Toronto games I'm not saying ur wrong or anything just want ur opinion which I respect.

It's a case where the stats were somewhat misleading imo. Kawhi certainly had the higher ceiling in the RS, and Raps won a bunch of games as a direct result of his superstar ability to take over.

BUT...Kawhi didn't make his teammates better. If anything, it was an awkward fit where everyone else had to accommodate his ISO game. Raps had to basically run two different offenses: the Kawhi offense and their regular offense. Kyle was the go between that made it work. Plus, Kawhi was recovering that year. Defensively, he really picked his spots. There were a lot Lebron-esk games where he'd just stand in one place defensively while Pascal and Kyle and Danny Green were forced to chase and recover all over the court. And then Kawhi would turn it on in the important spots and shut down the best opposing player down the stretch and get the credit.

Kawhi's "flip the switch" mode was really impressive, but it definitely impacted that team as they took on his personality as leader / best player. They should have won way more than 58 games. I get that some of this isn't perfectly reflected in Raps record in games Kyle/Kawhi missed (edit: they were 17-5 in games Kawhi missed; 10-6 in games Kyle missed). It was a case where you had to watch the games to see the different ways Kawhi was negatively impacting the team, both when he was playing and then when he wasn't, even though his individual performances ranged from good to brilliant. PO Kawhi was another story. Absolute stud.

Appreciate that. As a Knicks fan its sounding similar to how some see Carmelo. Interrupts the flow of offense which makes teamates get worse and less looks but it's disguised a bit by 27ppg. So I can definitely appreciate where your coming from my friend.

[Rapcity_11]

Jrue had a 43% TS and 44% TS in the 2 most competitive series he played in.

Jrue just can't get it done offensively in the playoffs these days.

Lowry, for sure.

[CharityStripe34]

Very interesting comparison. Holiday is very inconsistent offensively in the playoffs with his shot. Especially without Middleton, who is more suited to be the #2 offensive option after Gianni. Holiday is an all-world defender, though, and part of his slip in offense is probably having to guard guys like Tatum/Brown, CP3/Booker, Trae Young, KD/Kyrie, etc. (last two playoffs). His last two regular seasons were the best of his career, efficiency wise, playing next to Gianni (and Middleton). Holiday quietly will make some huge shots even if he's 3/14 for the game in a major playoff game (Game 7 vs. Nets, Game 5 vs. Boston, Games 5 &6 vs. Hawks). He always averaged right around 10 assists, though, too.

Lowry made huge shots in 2019 and, thanks to Bledsoe's ineptitude in the ECF, didn't have to spend a ton of energy on defense which allowed him to roam and be a pest.