Replace Harden w/ Jordan for Career how many titles?

[Matt15]

10 Thunder-85 Jordan
11 Thunder-86 Jordan
12 Thunder-87 Jordan
13 Rockets-88 Jordan
14 Rockets-89 Jordan
15 Rockets-90 Jordan
16 Rockets-91 Jordan
17 Rockets-92 Jordan
18 Rockets-93 Jordan
20 Rockets-95 Jordan
21 Nets-96 Jordan
22 Nets/Sixers-97 Jordan
23 Sixers-98 Jordan

[Colbinii]

I think they are title contender in 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2021.

The CP3 injury makes 2018 difficult while Harden and the Nets win the title easily in 2021 if he isnt injured.

4 Strong years, likely winning a couple titles.

[eminence]

'12 and '21 seem like pretty strong picks. '18 and '22 other chances (and '23 obviously). I'd guess 3 titles.

[OhayoKD]

chris paul inury makes 18 tougher. Could win in 2012. Should absolutely win in 21. Let's say they pick up one of the first two. I'll say 2.

[No-more-rings]

I think 2012, 2015 and 2021.

[AEnigma]

Feel pretty confident about 2021. This year, waaaay too early to say. Last year, probably too rough a path with Embiid in questionable health.

Rockets though highlight how while this is a reasonably “equal” analogy with the Lebron/Barkley thread, it does not work as well when the skillsets involved are radically different. James Harden was Houston’s point guard. Jordan can be a lead creator if need be, but that is not his role. Those rosters were entirely built around just having Harden do everything on offence. It is not a system which works as well without that type of creative high volume passer.

Now, in 2018, I actually do think they upset the Warriors. Do they do it before Chris Paul gets injured? Tough call. Are they good enough to beat the Cavaliers anyway? Quite possibly. I would at least mark that one down as a semi-likely title. Other years are too talent deficient, especially without having an elite heliocentric creator to make use of everyone. Do not see the case in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, or 2017. Even if they go farther than they did in most of those years (2015 aside), the top teams are just too good and too capable of zeroing in on Jordan without outside scoring pressure.

The Thunder are something entirely different. Jordan does not need to be a lead creator — although realistically, tough to imagine the Thunder choosing Westbrook over him lol. He can be a co-lead with Durant (which in the best case might prevent Westbrook from getting full of himself, although probably not) and focus more on defence, to whatever extent young Jordan could be a strong impact defender. Is that enough to steal a title? In three chances, my gut says probably once. They were not especially close exits in 2011 or 2012, and in 2010 I am skeptical that 1985 Jordan is enough to elevate the Thunder into a clear title team, but it is a game of odds, and I could see a breakthrough in one of those seasons.

So 1-3, with 2 being most likely and favouring 3 over 1.

[ardee]

Strong case for titles in '12, '18 and '21.

Probably can win in '15 too. They made the WCF and the difference between peak Jordan and Harden that year is enormous.

Weak case for a title in '22, if he's healthy the gap between him and '22 Harden is big.

[ty 4191]

Feel pretty confident about 2021. This year, waaaay too early to say. Last year, probably too rough a path with Embiid in questionable health.

Rockets though highlight how while this is a reasonably “equal” analogy with the Lebron/Barkley thread, it does not work as well when the skillsets involved are radically different. James Harden was Houston’s point guard. Jordan can be a lead creator if need be, but that is not his role. Those rosters were entirely built around just having Harden do everything on offence. It is not a systems which works as well without that type of creative high volume passer.

Now, in 2018, I actually do think they upset the Warriors. Do they do it before Chris Paul gets injured? Tough call. Are they good enough to beat the Cavaliers anyway? Quite possibly. I would at least mark that one down as a semi-likely title. Other years are too talent deficient, especially without having an elite heliocentric creator to make use of everyone. Do not see the case in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, or 2017. Even if they go farther than they did in most of those years (2015 aside), the top teams are just too good and too capable of zeroing in on Jordan without outside scoring pressure.

The Thunder are something entirely different. Jordan does not need to be a lead creator — although realistically, tough to imagine the Thunder choosing Westbrook over him lol. He can be a co-lead with Durant (which in the best case might prevent Westbrook from getting full of himself, although probably not) and focus more on defence, to whatever extent young Jordan could be a strong impact defender. Is that enough to steal a title? In three chances, my gut says probably once. They were not especially close exits in 2011 or 2012, and in 2010 I am skeptical that 1985 Jordan is enough to elevate the Thunder into a clear title team, but it is a game of odds, and I could see a breakthrough in one of those seasons.

So 1-3, with 2 being most likely and favouring 3 over 1.

Nuanced, sophisticated, and erudite post. Per usual from you!

Thanks for chiming in here.

[homecourtloss]

Feel pretty confident about 2021. This year, waaaay too early to say. Last year, probably too rough a path with Embiid in questionable health.

Rockets though highlight how while this is a reasonably “equal” analogy with the Lebron/Barkley thread, it does not work as well when the skillsets involved are radically different. James Harden was Houston’s point guard. Jordan can be a lead creator if need be, but that is not his role. Those rosters were entirely built around just having Harden do everything on offence. It is not a systems which works as well without that type of creative high volume passer.

Now, in 2018, I actually do think they upset the Warriors. Do they do it before Chris Paul gets injured? Tough call. Are they good enough to beat the Cavaliers anyway? Quite possibly. I would at least mark that one down as a semi-likely title. Other years are too talent deficient, especially without having an elite heliocentric creator to make use of everyone. Do not see the case in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, or 2017. Even if they go farther than they did in most of those years (2015 aside), the top teams are just too good and too capable of zeroing in on Jordan without outside scoring pressure.

The Thunder are something entirely different. Jordan does not need to be a lead creator — although realistically, tough to imagine the Thunder choosing Westbrook over him lol. He can be a co-lead with Durant (which in the best case might prevent Westbrook from getting full of himself, although probably not) and focus more on defence, to whatever extent young Jordan could be a strong impact defender. Is that enough to steal a title? In three chances, my gut says probably once. They were not especially close exits in 2011 or 2012, and in 2010 I am skeptical that 1985 Jordan is enough to elevate the Thunder into a clear title team, but it is a game of odds, and I could see a breakthrough in one of those seasons.

So 1-3, with 2 being most likely and favouring 3 over 1.

[WherePipAt]

Lol at the two 0 votes

[Eagle4]

Lol at the two 0 votes

Read the title in the reverse, oops. That's how much disdain I have for Harden

[f4p]

Strong case for titles in '12, '18 and '21.

Probably can win in '15 too. They made the WCF and the difference between peak Jordan and Harden that year is enormous.

Weak case for a title in '22, if he's healthy the gap between him and '22 Harden is big.

'12 and '21 i agree with, especially since the nets were very likely to win if harden himself had just stayed healthy. with jordan i think this is basically just a gimme title.

'18 i'm not sure how much jordan helps. to win the series in game 6 or 7 without chris paul means we have to assume jordan is amazing in game 7 because harden scored 32 in game 6 (32/9/7, 9 TO's, 57 TS%) and the rockets still lost by 29 b/c the rest of the team was horrible. and in game 7, harden put up a respectable 32/6/6 (won't mention all the missed 3 point fouls, or maybe i will) and still lost by 9 so we're pretty much hinging everything on jordan putting up 40+ against an all-time team with defenders like he saw in the '96 finals. to win before chris paul gets hurt means he is winning the series 4-1, against a juggernaut the likes of which he never faced before. one of the 2 losses before the injury was by 41 points, and in the other, harden put up 40 points on 72 TS% and lost by 13.

'15 i could maybe see but it's still more of the same. the two most flippable games of the series are games 1 and 2, which the rockets lost by 3 and 1. except harden was great. 28/11/9 on 55 FG% in game 1. in game 2, 38/10/9 on 62 FG% (top 30 playoff game score of the decade), and the rockets were +12 in 41 minutes with harden on the floor and a crazy -13 in the 7 minutes off. harden was bad in game 3 but the warriors won by 35 and then the only game the rockets won, harden put up 45/9/5 on 59 FG%, another top 30 game score of the decade. if near 30 point and 40 point triple doubles aren't getting you wins and you only split the 2 games where you have some of the better statistical games of the decade, i'm not sure you are winning with anyone.

i would be more inclined to pick 2019. not because harden wasn't great in the warriors series, but it was very close and jordan is obviously even better than the best of harden and could potentially make up the gap, even though cp3's struggles still make it a tougher go than it would need to be.