Where would 1993 MJ rank today?

[ty 4191]

Also cool how he tracked and watched all MJ playoff games on this vid

Watch on YouTube

Wish he discussed more about MJs off ball abilities and the triangle...but only so much he can fit in 1 video....perhaps on another future video

Awesome video and breakdown, per Ben's usual/always. Especially intriguing that Jordan actually said (paraphrasing) "I don't want to shoot 3's; it takes away from the rest of my game."

This (below) isn't apropos of 1997 Jordan in today's game directly, but, Prime Jordan was absolutely staggering.

Thought this might facilitate thoughtful/useful discussion of his value, skill set, and greatness in his prime.

Cleaned it up a bit since Unibro's posts are a total mess.

FROM ISH/HOOPSNATION

I found this because apparently Harvey Pollack said Jordan's best jump shooting season he averaged 35% from mid range to prop up the 60s players. Yeah, he lied. lol even on the wizards he averaged 40+ percent from 16ft out. goes to show how some players are biased towards their own era).

VA guy on ISH forums actually compiled shooting data for MJ from the 89-90 to the 91-92 season, 126 games in total. It's a nice sample size to see how efficient peak Jordan was from all parts of the court although it's likely that there is a bit more footage of his good games than his bad ones.

For the entire data his FG% is 53.5% which is slightly above his FG% for all 3 seasons of 52.8%. It's a small difference so this data should paint a good picture. It's a 140 game sample, and yes, if it wasn't already clear, now he is the goat.


1989-90: 35 games
1990-91: 44 games
1991-92: 47 games

Shot Chart

At Rim: 629/847 FG (74.3%)
In Paint (Overall): 786/1333 FG (59.0%)
Midrange: 793/1552 FG (51.1%)
3 Point: 93/243 FG (38.3%)




Synergy Offense

PPP stands for Points Per Play. I did not record the number of possessions, but rather the number of offensive plays that Jordan was involved in, meaning he either attempted a FG and/or FT, or turned the ball over (on drives to the hoop). I did not record any FTA he had as a result of intentional fouls or penalty fouls where he was not aggressively attacking or attempting to make an offensive play. No technical FT's are on the chart either. Every play category aside from Transition is in a half court set, and transition also includes jump shots, though this was very rare. The Other category primarily consists of desperate attempts to beat the clock, including the full court buzzer beaters.

There are several sub-categories out of Isolation. Jordan tended to be quick and decisive, very seldom holding onto the ball longer than 3-4 seconds like the wing players do in this era. Another category is Drive To Basket, which measures his effectiveness driving to the hoop strictly in the half court. Every other category is basically a jumper, though if there is a pick in the two man game that enables him to get an advantage over the defense, then it is recorded as under the P&R Ball Handler category. This includes jump shots as well as drives to the hoop.

Shot Attempts Blocked (Offense): 67

*This means 2.1% of his shots (3128 FGA) were blocked in this footage

Overall Chart



Iso Plays Only



Team Play

(yes this is ridiculous)



Plus/Minus

Plus/Minus Total: +1767

Plus/Minus Per 100: +18.3

On/Off

On Court ORtg: 123.9

Off Court ORtg: 88.3

Net ORtg: +35.6

On Court DRtg: 105.5

Off Court DRtg: 114.8

Net DRtg: -9.3

On/Off Net Rating: 44.9

Clutch Play

59 Total Games


4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points:

Plus/Minus Total: +246

Plus/Minus Per 48: +48.8

Win Percentage: 74.6 %

1 on 1 Defense (his opponent when Jordan guarded him in the clutch)

15/55 FG (27.3%)

His total clutch stats

[MyUniBroDavis]

Also cool how he tracked and watched all MJ playoff games on this vid

Watch on YouTube

Wish he discussed more about MJs off ball abilities and the triangle...but only so much he can fit in 1 video....perhaps on another future video

Awesome video and breakdown, per Ben's usual/always. Especially intriguing that Jordan actually said (paraphrasing) "I don't want to shoot 3's; it takes away from the rest of my game."

This (below) isn't apropos of 1997 Jordan in today's game directly, but, Prime Jordan was absolutely staggering.

Thought this might facilitate thoughtful/useful discussion of his value, skill set, and greatness in his prime.

Cleaned it up a bit since Unibro's posts are a total mess.

FROM ISH/HOOPSNATION

I found this because apparently Harvey Pollack said Jordan's best jump shooting season he averaged 35% from mid range to prop up the 60s players. Yeah, he lied. lol even on the wizards he averaged 40+ percent from 16ft out. goes to show how some players are biased towards their own era).

VA guy on ISH forums actually compiled shooting data for MJ from the 89-90 to the 91-92 season, 126 games in total. It's a nice sample size to see how efficient peak Jordan was from all parts of the court although it's likely that there is a bit more footage of his good games than his bad ones.

For the entire data his FG% is 53.5% which is slightly above his FG% for all 3 seasons of 52.8%. It's a small difference so this data should paint a good picture. It's a 140 game sample, and yes, if it wasn't already clear, now he is the goat.


1989-90: 35 games
1990-91: 44 games
1991-92: 47 games

Shot Chart

At Rim: 629/847 FG (74.3%)
In Paint (Overall): 786/1333 FG (59.0%)
Midrange: 793/1552 FG (51.1%)
3 Point: 93/243 FG (38.3%)




Synergy Offense

PPP stands for Points Per Play. I did not record the number of possessions, but rather the number of offensive plays that Jordan was involved in, meaning he either attempted a FG and/or FT, or turned the ball over (on drives to the hoop). I did not record any FTA he had as a result of intentional fouls or penalty fouls where he was not aggressively attacking or attempting to make an offensive play. No technical FT's are on the chart either. Every play category aside from Transition is in a half court set, and transition also includes jump shots, though this was very rare. The Other category primarily consists of desperate attempts to beat the clock, including the full court buzzer beaters.

There are several sub-categories out of Isolation. Jordan tended to be quick and decisive, very seldom holding onto the ball longer than 3-4 seconds like the wing players do in this era. Another category is Drive To Basket, which measures his effectiveness driving to the hoop strictly in the half court. Every other category is basically a jumper, though if there is a pick in the two man game that enables him to get an advantage over the defense, then it is recorded as under the P&R Ball Handler category. This includes jump shots as well as drives to the hoop.

Shot Attempts Blocked (Offense): 67

*This means 2.1% of his shots (3128 FGA) were blocked in this footage

Overall Chart



Iso Plays Only



Team Play

(yes this is ridiculous)



Plus/Minus

Plus/Minus Total: +1767

Plus/Minus Per 100: +18.3

On/Off

On Court ORtg: 123.9

Off Court ORtg: 88.3

Net ORtg: +35.6

On Court DRtg: 105.5

Off Court DRtg: 114.8

Net DRtg: -9.3

On/Off Net Rating: 44.9

Clutch Play

59 Total Games


4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points:

Plus/Minus Total: +246

Plus/Minus Per 48: +48.8

Win Percentage: 74.6 %

1 on 1 Defense (his opponent when Jordan guarded him in the clutch)

15/55 FG (27.3%)

His total clutch stats

Yeah, I posted this when I was like 12-13 lol, the guy who did it didn’t track the synergy stuff or the plus minus stuff or net rtg stuff right iirc so most of it can be ignored. It’s been awhile but I remember what he posted vs what was available in those regards ended up having a huge gap +/- and on/off wise, + he messed up the synergy stats pretty badly without including TOS

The shot chart stuff is the only real thing here I think

[falcolombardi]

Also cool how he tracked and watched all MJ playoff games on this vid

Watch on YouTube

Wish he discussed more about MJs off ball abilities and the triangle...but only so much he can fit in 1 video....perhaps on another future video

Awesome video and breakdown, per Ben's usual/always. Especially intriguing that Jordan actually said (paraphrasing) "I don't want to shoot 3's; it takes away from the rest of my game."

This (below) isn't apropos of 1997 Jordan in today's game directly, but, Prime Jordan was absolutely staggering.

Thought this might facilitate thoughtful/useful discussion of his value, skill set, and greatness in his prime.

Cleaned it up a bit since Unibro's posts are a total mess.

FROM ISH/HOOPSNATION

I found this because apparently Harvey Pollack said Jordan's best jump shooting season he averaged 35% from mid range to prop up the 60s players. Yeah, he lied. lol even on the wizards he averaged 40+ percent from 16ft out. goes to show how some players are biased towards their own era).

VA guy on ISH forums actually compiled shooting data for MJ from the 89-90 to the 91-92 season, 126 games in total. It's a nice sample size to see how efficient peak Jordan was from all parts of the court although it's likely that there is a bit more footage of his good games than his bad ones.

For the entire data his FG% is 53.5% which is slightly above his FG% for all 3 seasons of 52.8%. It's a small difference so this data should paint a good picture. It's a 140 game sample, and yes, if it wasn't already clear, now he is the goat.


1989-90: 35 games
1990-91: 44 games
1991-92: 47 games

Shot Chart

At Rim: 629/847 FG (74.3%)
In Paint (Overall): 786/1333 FG (59.0%)
Midrange: 793/1552 FG (51.1%)
3 Point: 93/243 FG (38.3%)




Synergy Offense

PPP stands for Points Per Play. I did not record the number of possessions, but rather the number of offensive plays that Jordan was involved in, meaning he either attempted a FG and/or FT, or turned the ball over (on drives to the hoop). I did not record any FTA he had as a result of intentional fouls or penalty fouls where he was not aggressively attacking or attempting to make an offensive play. No technical FT's are on the chart either. Every play category aside from Transition is in a half court set, and transition also includes jump shots, though this was very rare. The Other category primarily consists of desperate attempts to beat the clock, including the full court buzzer beaters.

There are several sub-categories out of Isolation. Jordan tended to be quick and decisive, very seldom holding onto the ball longer than 3-4 seconds like the wing players do in this era. Another category is Drive To Basket, which measures his effectiveness driving to the hoop strictly in the half court. Every other category is basically a jumper, though if there is a pick in the two man game that enables him to get an advantage over the defense, then it is recorded as under the P&R Ball Handler category. This includes jump shots as well as drives to the hoop.

Shot Attempts Blocked (Offense): 67

*This means 2.1% of his shots (3128 FGA) were blocked in this footage

Overall Chart



Iso Plays Only



Team Play

(yes this is ridiculous)



Plus/Minus

Plus/Minus Total: +1767

Plus/Minus Per 100: +18.3

On/Off

On Court ORtg: 123.9

Off Court ORtg: 88.3

Net ORtg: +35.6

On Court DRtg: 105.5

Off Court DRtg: 114.8

Net DRtg: -9.3

On/Off Net Rating: 44.9

Clutch Play

59 Total Games


4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points:

Plus/Minus Total: +246

Plus/Minus Per 48: +48.8

Win Percentage: 74.6 %

1 on 1 Defense (his opponent when Jordan guarded him in the clutch)

15/55 FG (27.3%)

His total clutch stats

Yeah, I posted this when I was like 12-13 lol, the guy who did it didn’t track the synergy stuff or the plus minus stuff or net rtg stuff right iirc so most of it can be ignored. It’s been awhile but I remember what he posted vs what was available in those regards ended up having a huge gap +/- and on/off wise, + he messed up the synergy stats pretty badly without including TOS

The shot chart stuff is the only real thing here I think

Is there a more accurate version of this data?

[Mazter]

I've got Jordan'93 in the top 5 with a high probability for top 3, that being said...

Where is the crowd of help defenders in the paint today? We have a legal zone now but the quality of the 3 point shooting today more than offsets the zone in taking away help defenders. You have to defend the screen setters now to stop the guys using the screens from getting open 3s.

Looks like enough help defense to me, 5 defenders closer to the basket than the ball handler:

Jordan would dominate in the current game more than he dominated in his own time where he had to deal with multiple help defenders.

Yeah wow. look at all the help defenders in the paint back in the 90's...

Jordan was a good but not great passer but he woukd find the open 3 point shooters if help defenders left 3 point shooters to help defend Jordan.

Sure, SGA leads the league in passes to the corner...does anyone thinks he is the best player because of it, I don't really think so. Defenders (you know, like the 2 in the low post in the first pic) will always choose to sag the paint rather than defend the corner. It's up to Jordan to find his way, and I'm sure he will. But don't expect defenders to stand around looking just because of some corner 3. The handler will always be the first to stop.

[falcolombardi]

I've got Jordan'93 in the top 5 with a high probability for top 3, that being said...

Where is the crowd of help defenders in the paint today? We have a legal zone now but the quality of the 3 point shooting today more than offsets the zone in taking away help defenders. You have to defend the screen setters now to stop the guys using the screens from getting open 3s.

Looks like enough help defense to me, 5 defenders closer to the basket than the ball handler:

Jordan would dominate in the current game more than he dominated in his own time where he had to deal with multiple help defenders.

Yeah wow. look at all the help defenders in the paint back in the 90's...

Jordan was a good but not great passer but he woukd find the open 3 point shooters if help defenders left 3 point shooters to help defend Jordan.

Sure, SGA leads the league in passes to the corner...does anyone thinks he is the best player because of it, I don't really think so. Defenders (you know, like the 2 in the low post in the first pic) will always choose to sag the paint rather than defend the corner. It's up to Jordan to find his way, and I'm sure he will. But don't expect defenders to stand around looking just because of some corner 3. The handler will always be the first to stop.

The artificial ruleset enforced spacing provided by illegal D rules is always so diminished

[MyUniBroDavis]

Awesome video and breakdown, per Ben's usual/always. Especially intriguing that Jordan actually said (paraphrasing) "I don't want to shoot 3's; it takes away from the rest of my game."

This (below) isn't apropos of 1997 Jordan in today's game directly, but, Prime Jordan was absolutely staggering.

Thought this might facilitate thoughtful/useful discussion of his value, skill set, and greatness in his prime.

Cleaned it up a bit since Unibro's posts are a total mess.

Yeah, I posted this when I was like 12-13 lol, the guy who did it didn’t track the synergy stuff or the plus minus stuff or net rtg stuff right iirc so most of it can be ignored. It’s been awhile but I remember what he posted vs what was available in those regards ended up having a huge gap +/- and on/off wise, + he messed up the synergy stats pretty badly without including TOS

The shot chart stuff is the only real thing here I think

Is there a more accurate version of this data?

Nope. It’s also not mine, but he did the synergy wrong and the on/off numbers were way off from what I remember, like he calculated possessions wrong? It’s been awhile but looking at other guys he tracked looks suspicious too (Hakeem being -27.0 on defense alone for example)

The post above comparing jordan in the post to harden a few feet behind the line is kinda weird tho lol

[f4p]

#1. I don't think it'd be a stretch for him to be around a 36-37% 3PT shooter had he come up in this era. His athletic/physical prowess, fundamentals, post-work would look incredibly unique for a 6'6" guard. With his maniacal competitive drive he'd be the league's top dog.

before they shortened the 3 point line, jordan basically had 2 seasons where he shots a decent number of 3's (i.e. not just 1.2 per game). 1990, where he shot 3 per game at 37.6% (way higher than his other season percentages). and then 1993, where he shot 2.9 per game at 35.2%. there is every reason to believe you are right that a higher volume jordan is at least at 36-37%. and also no real reason to think he randomly upped his 3 point shots in his own career at certain points but wouldn't in a league gone crazy with 3 pointers. and of course in the 96 and 97 seasons with the shorter 3 point line, he took 3.4 per game and made them at 40%.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I've got Jordan'93 in the top 5 with a high probability for top 3, that being said...

Where is the crowd of help defenders in the paint today? We have a legal zone now but the quality of the 3 point shooting today more than offsets the zone in taking away help defenders. You have to defend the screen setters now to stop the guys using the screens from getting open 3s.

Looks like enough help defense to me, 5 defenders closer to the basket than the ball handler:

Jordan would dominate in the current game more than he dominated in his own time where he had to deal with multiple help defenders.

Yeah wow. look at all the help defenders in the paint back in the 90's...


Illegal defense would have been a factor if it had been enforced.

Jordan was a good but not great passer but he woukd find the open 3 point shooters if help defenders left 3 point shooters to help defend Jordan.

Sure, SGA leads the league in passes to the corner...does anyone thinks he is the best player because of it, I don't really think so. Defenders (you know, like the 2 in the low post in the first pic) will always choose to sag the paint rather than defend the corner. It's up to Jordan to find his way, and I'm sure he will. But don't expect defenders to stand around looking just because of some corner 3. The handler will always be the first to stop.

The artificial ruleset enforced spacing provided by illegal D rules is always so diminished

[falcolombardi]

Yeah, I posted this when I was like 12-13 lol, the guy who did it didn’t track the synergy stuff or the plus minus stuff or net rtg stuff right iirc so most of it can be ignored. It’s been awhile but I remember what he posted vs what was available in those regards ended up having a huge gap +/- and on/off wise, + he messed up the synergy stats pretty badly without including TOS

The shot chart stuff is the only real thing here I think

Is there a more accurate version of this data?

Nope. It’s also not mine, but he did the synergy wrong and the on/off numbers were way off from what I remember, like he calculated possessions wrong? It’s been awhile but looking at other guys he tracked looks suspicious too (Hakeem being -27.0 on defense alone for example)

The post above comparing jordan in the post to harden a few feet behind the line is kinda weird tho lol

I think the point of that post is to show how for all intents and purposes the illegal defense rules provided a lot of spacing regardless of whether the guys behind the line were 3 point threays

[f4p]

I think Giannis/Jokic/Curry are a clear top 3 rn, then you have guys like Tatum/Luka/KD/AD and a few guys probably

i already know what some of the others that do this will say but i haven't seen you mention it before so i'll ask, because i keep seeing people try to sneak curry into the jokic/giannis tier when it seems like there's a decent separation. why do people try to lump curry in with jokic and giannis, who seem like clear separators from everyone else in anything that isn't "ringz". and even if we try to lump him with those 2, where is his separation from Luka/KD, who seems like more his tier at this point? does steph have a single playoff series as impressive as luka against the suns last year (factoring in opponent, teammates, your own play, situation, etc)? and KD right now is putting up essentially the same box metrics as steph while actually turning the kyrie/nash mess into a winning team while the warriors are showing some championship hangover. and it's not like the previous 2 years were some blowout for curry over KD. they each seemingly "won" 1 of the 2 regular seasons compared to the other and 1 of the 2 playoffs compared to each other (and even if we don't hold it against steph for not making it in '21, he's not matching what KD did if he does make it), so there doesn't seem like much difference other than "won ring because teammates = healthy".

edit: holy crap, luka just completed a 60/21/10 triple double.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think Giannis/Jokic/Curry are a clear top 3 rn, then you have guys like Tatum/Luka/KD/AD and a few guys probably

i already know what some of the others that do this will say but i haven't seen you mention it before so i'll ask, because i keep seeing people try to sneak curry into the jokic/giannis tier when it seems like there's a decent separation. why do people try to lump curry in with jokic and giannis, who seem like clear separators from everyone else in anything that isn't "ringz". and even if we try to lump him with those 2, where is his separation from Luka/KD, who seems like more his tier at this point? does steph have a single playoff series as impressive as luka against the suns last year (factoring in opponent, teammates, your own play, situation, etc)? and KD right now is putting up essentially the same box metrics as steph while actually turning the kyrie/nash mess into a winning team while the warriors are showing some championship hangover. and it's not like the previous 2 years were some blowout for curry over KD. they each seemingly "won" 1 of the 2 regular seasons compared to the other and 1 of the 2 playoffs compared to each other (and even if we don't hold it against steph for not making it in '21, he's not matching what KD did if he does make it), so there doesn't seem like much difference other than "won ring because teammates = healthy".

edit: holy crap, luka just completed a 60/21/10 triple double.

I will say that I like evaluating guys based on a kind of rolling level of play at least untill we get to that 2/3rds of the season mark depending on circumstance

I agree that as a whole the Warriors started really poorly in their first 10 games or so, but curry himself kinda caught fire afterwards and outside of a pacers game destroying his averages in that span was hitting career high marks in effeciency which is crazy because it’s curry, and in that span the Warriors were 11-6 with Curry, before he got hurt. I also made that post on the 16th and the nets have won 5 straight since then, but I also think their roster is far better than people thought it was.

Now if we were evaluating this year without any prior years I’d agree with you to an extent that Jokic probably stands alone on top, but there are issues with that as well.

First of all, Giannis hasn’t had his best year, he’s been fine but given how good the bucks are around him it’s fair to say that they’re better than they are, but I think most of us think playoff Giannis hits a different gear in terms of his effort level among other things. He’s still been dominant of course. I think his RS hasnt been as strong at all as some other years esp with lopez doing the heavy lifting on defense but Giannis is my best player in the league

Jokic has certainly had the best and most consistent regular season so far, but his playoff defense so far is a pretty big red flag with how he gets targeted in some extended spaced out p and r. I don’t think it’s something you can flag as a non issue, it sounds trollish sometimes because haters are usually the ones saying it, but the fact that the nuggets defence consistently goes from below average to horrendous in the playoffs with him on the floor for the past three years in every single series he’s played in except the Clippers collapse is enough to warrant caution in evaluating him

There are a few guys who were performing incredibly well, AD was at an mvp level and esp now as a laker fan it’s pretty clear, Embiid is going crazy, KD of course.

The thing is currys always had that absurd non box score impact with his off ball gravity that’s made him one of the most impactful guys on that end ever, and especially since their losses are mostly from their bench, Currys season was near his unanimous mvp season just with much less help (nearing, I don’t think it was quite there of course).

Comparing what they’ve done the past two years is silly, KD was unlucky but at the end of the day he lost in round 2 in 7 to the eventual champs and then got swept pretty badly last year. Curry won last year, it’s not comparable and something you can say - he won 1 season he won the other season.

At the same time, I do agree Kd has been overlooked and he’s playing at a ridiculous level.

Luka is weird, people here say his impact isn’t as high as you’d expect and obv I get that it’s true but from an ability perspective I wouldn’t be suprised if he was the best in the league by a lot lol.

There are reasonable arguments for a few guys and I think each of them would have a different level of impact on a different team, but I think Jokic/Giannis/Curry is a clear tier 1 because theyte either very proven or at a higher level of play, or both.

Jokic is at the highest level of play id say

Giannis is proven over the past few playoffs even if his regular season has been underwhelming

Currys level of play on the roll he was on was at the very least near top of the league level, if not on it. When it comes to comparing him to a few of the other guys, Jokic/Embiid/AD/Luka/KD

Embiid and AD always have health issues either now or in the playoffs so they get thrown out

The mavs were at .500 and luka kind of went on a run afterwards, but I’d agree luka should be up there but I don’t just because the others are easier, but I wouldn’t be bringing down Curry butt bringing up Luka

And KD I feel somewhat similarly, but Luka is scarier than him in the playoffs with how their last ones went.

I think you could probably argue on current or projected form a few guys up there with how some guys have stepped up the last few games, but I don’t think that Curry himself is as far from Jokic or Giannis if at all given the concerns about Jokic’s playoff defense or Giannis having a slow start so far, the others might just get pulled up

[OhayoKD]

I think Giannis/Jokic/Curry are a clear top 3 rn, then you have guys like Tatum/Luka/KD/AD and a few guys probably

i already know what some of the others that do this will say but i haven't seen you mention it before so i'll ask, because i keep seeing people try to sneak curry into the jokic/giannis tier when it seems like there's a decent separation. why do people try to lump curry in with jokic and giannis, who seem like clear separators from everyone else in anything that isn't "ringz". and even if we try to lump him with those 2, where is his separation from Luka/KD, who seems like more his tier at this point? does steph have a single playoff series as impressive as luka against the suns last year (factoring in opponent, teammates, your own play, situation, etc)? and KD right now is putting up essentially the same box metrics as steph while actually turning the kyrie/nash mess into a winning team while the warriors are showing some championship hangover. and it's not like the previous 2 years were some blowout for curry over KD. they each seemingly "won" 1 of the 2 regular seasons compared to the other and 1 of the 2 playoffs compared to each other (and even if we don't hold it against steph for not making it in '21, he's not matching what KD did if he does make it), so there doesn't seem like much difference other than "won ring because teammates = healthy".

edit: holy crap, luka just completed a 60/21/10 triple double.

I will say that I like evaluating guys based on a kind of rolling level of play at least untill we get to that 2/3rds of the season mark depending on circumstance

I agree that as a whole the Warriors started really poorly in their first 10 games or so, but curry himself kinda caught fire afterwards and outside of a pacers game destroying his averages in that span was hitting career high marks in effeciency which is crazy because it’s curry, and in that span the Warriors were 11-6 with Curry, before he got hurt. I also made that post on the 16th and the nets have won 5 straight since then, but I also think their roster is far better than people thought it was.

Now if we were evaluating this year without any prior years I’d agree with you to an extent that Jokic probably stands alone on top, but there are issues with that as well.

First of all, Giannis hasn’t had his best year, he’s been fine but given how good the bucks are around him it’s fair to say that they’re better than they are, but I think most of us think playoff Giannis hits a different gear in terms of his effort level among other things. He’s still been dominant of course. I think his RS hasnt been as strong at all as some other years esp with lopez doing the heavy lifting on defense but Giannis is my best player in the league

Jokic has certainly had the best and most consistent regular season so far, but his playoff defense so far is a pretty big red flag with how he gets targeted in some extended spaced out p and r. I don’t think it’s something you can flag as a non issue, it sounds trollish sometimes because haters are usually the ones saying it, but the fact that the nuggets defence consistently goes from below average to horrendous in the playoffs with him on the floor for the past three years in every single series he’s played in except the Clippers collapse is enough to warrant caution in evaluating him

There are a few guys who were performing incredibly well, AD was at an mvp level and esp now as a laker fan it’s pretty clear, Embiid is going crazy, KD of course.

The thing is currys always had that absurd non box score impact with his off ball gravity that’s made him one of the most impactful guys on that end ever, and especially since their losses are mostly from their bench, Currys season was near his unanimous mvp season just with much less help (nearing, I don’t think it was quite there of course).

Comparing what they’ve done the past two years is silly, KD was unlucky but at the end of the day he lost in round 2 in 7 to the eventual champs and then got swept pretty badly last year. Curry won last year, it’s not comparable and something you can say - he won 1 season he won the other season.

At the same time, I do agree Kd has been overlooked and he’s playing at a ridiculous level.

Luka is weird, people here say his impact isn’t as high as you’d expect and obv I get that it’s true but from an ability perspective I wouldn’t be suprised if he was the best in the league by a lot lol.

"Pure" impact: Luka might be best in the league(takes clips to 7, beats 62 win suns, might beat clips in 7 if he's healthy in 2019, more superfrically impressive vers of kd vs bucks in 2021)

Regularized: Lol no.

[f4p]

i already know what some of the others that do this will say but i haven't seen you mention it before so i'll ask, because i keep seeing people try to sneak curry into the jokic/giannis tier when it seems like there's a decent separation. why do people try to lump curry in with jokic and giannis, who seem like clear separators from everyone else in anything that isn't "ringz". and even if we try to lump him with those 2, where is his separation from Luka/KD, who seems like more his tier at this point? does steph have a single playoff series as impressive as luka against the suns last year (factoring in opponent, teammates, your own play, situation, etc)? and KD right now is putting up essentially the same box metrics as steph while actually turning the kyrie/nash mess into a winning team while the warriors are showing some championship hangover. and it's not like the previous 2 years were some blowout for curry over KD. they each seemingly "won" 1 of the 2 regular seasons compared to the other and 1 of the 2 playoffs compared to each other (and even if we don't hold it against steph for not making it in '21, he's not matching what KD did if he does make it), so there doesn't seem like much difference other than "won ring because teammates = healthy".

edit: holy crap, luka just completed a 60/21/10 triple double.

I will say that I like evaluating guys based on a kind of rolling level of play at least untill we get to that 2/3rds of the season mark depending on circumstance

I agree that as a whole the Warriors started really poorly in their first 10 games or so, but curry himself kinda caught fire afterwards and outside of a pacers game destroying his averages in that span was hitting career high marks in effeciency which is crazy because it’s curry, and in that span the Warriors were 11-6 with Curry, before he got hurt. I also made that post on the 16th and the nets have won 5 straight since then, but I also think their roster is far better than people thought it was.

i mean the warriors roster is costing them something like $370M this year. and curry only missed road games until recently, where the warriors haven't won with or without him so that pumped up the differential.

Now if we were evaluating this year without any prior years I’d agree with you to an extent that Jokic probably stands alone on top, but there are issues with that as well.

First of all, Giannis hasn’t had his best year, he’s been fine but given how good the bucks are around him it’s fair to say that they’re better than they are, but I think most of us think playoff Giannis hits a different gear in terms of his effort level among other things. He’s still been dominant of course. I think his RS hasnt been as strong at all as some other years esp with lopez doing the heavy lifting on defense but Giannis is my best player in the league

Jokic has certainly had the best and most consistent regular season so far, but his playoff defense so far is a pretty big red flag with how he gets targeted in some extended spaced out p and r. I don’t think it’s something you can flag as a non issue, it sounds trollish sometimes because haters are usually the ones saying it, but the fact that the nuggets defence consistently goes from below average to horrendous in the playoffs with him on the floor for the past three years in every single series he’s played in except the Clippers collapse is enough to warrant caution in evaluating him

i guess it's less that you put him with jokic (for the playoff defense, giannis is clearly ahead of steph) but more that he has somehow separated from others. there doesn't seem to be much from the past 1.5 years for luka or 2.5 years for KD (or ever for KD really) that would make steph better than them other than "ringz".

The thing is currys always had that absurd non box score impact with his off ball gravity that’s made him one of the most impactful guys on that end ever, and especially since their losses are mostly from their bench, Currys season was near his unanimous mvp season just with much less help (nearing, I don’t think it was quite there of course).

curry hasn't really been that near his unanimous mvp season in anything other than raw points/rebounds/assists. box metrics are way below, TS+ is basically at his career average, and even his best friend RPM only has him at 5th this season, which based on steph's history with that stat (leading it basically every year and by a mile in 2016) would be like ranking a normal player at 15th or 20th. that's kind of my point. steph isn't having some 2016 season, by numbers, impact, or team record. he's having a 2023 KD season. and below 2023 luka doncic season.

Comparing what they’ve done the past two years is silly, KD was unlucky but at the end of the day he lost in round 2 in 7 to the eventual champs and then got swept pretty badly last year. Curry won last year, it’s not comparable and something you can say - he won 1 season he won the other season.

how is it not comparable? if we're doing this on a rolling basis. steph and KD have never been separated by a tier outside of 2016 and nothing in recent history suggests they should be and nothing from this season suggests they should be. we're literally coming off of steph not even making the playoffs for 2 straight years if we're looking at team results on a rolling basis.

that's why i said "there doesn't seem like much difference other than "won ring because teammates = healthy". it's like steph was smart for telling klay and draymond to stay healthy in the playoffs but KD lowered his impact by not telling harden and kyrie to stay healthy. that doesn't make much sense and seems weird to penalize KD for having the best series of either of he or curry in his series against the bucks and penalizing KD for the boston series is tough in a curry argument considering curry wasn't even in the playoffs in a recent season because he couldn't win just 1 of 2 play-in games the year before.

Luka is weird, people here say his impact isn’t as high as you’d expect and obv I get that it’s true but from an ability perspective I wouldn’t be suprised if he was the best in the league by a lot lol.

i feel like the suns series last year needs to put the impact argument to bed. impact metrics like some guys, they don't seem to like others. we haven't seen steph do anything like that in his career in terms of numbers and quality of opponent and being the road team.

[MyUniBroDavis]

i already know what some of the others that do this will say but i haven't seen you mention it before so i'll ask, because i keep seeing people try to sneak curry into the jokic/giannis tier when it seems like there's a decent separation. why do people try to lump curry in with jokic and giannis, who seem like clear separators from everyone else in anything that isn't "ringz". and even if we try to lump him with those 2, where is his separation from Luka/KD, who seems like more his tier at this point? does steph have a single playoff series as impressive as luka against the suns last year (factoring in opponent, teammates, your own play, situation, etc)? and KD right now is putting up essentially the same box metrics as steph while actually turning the kyrie/nash mess into a winning team while the warriors are showing some championship hangover. and it's not like the previous 2 years were some blowout for curry over KD. they each seemingly "won" 1 of the 2 regular seasons compared to the other and 1 of the 2 playoffs compared to each other (and even if we don't hold it against steph for not making it in '21, he's not matching what KD did if he does make it), so there doesn't seem like much difference other than "won ring because teammates = healthy".

edit: holy crap, luka just completed a 60/21/10 triple double.

I will say that I like evaluating guys based on a kind of rolling level of play at least untill we get to that 2/3rds of the season mark depending on circumstance

I agree that as a whole the Warriors started really poorly in their first 10 games or so, but curry himself kinda caught fire afterwards and outside of a pacers game destroying his averages in that span was hitting career high marks in effeciency which is crazy because it’s curry, and in that span the Warriors were 11-6 with Curry, before he got hurt. I also made that post on the 16th and the nets have won 5 straight since then, but I also think their roster is far better than people thought it was.

i mean the warriors roster is costing them something like $370M this year. and curry only missed road games until recently, where the warriors haven't won with or without him so that pumped up the differential.

Now if we were evaluating this year without any prior years I’d agree with you to an extent that Jokic probably stands alone on top, but there are issues with that as well.

First of all, Giannis hasn’t had his best year, he’s been fine but given how good the bucks are around him it’s fair to say that they’re better than they are, but I think most of us think playoff Giannis hits a different gear in terms of his effort level among other things. He’s still been dominant of course. I think his RS hasnt been as strong at all as some other years esp with lopez doing the heavy lifting on defense but Giannis is my best player in the league

Jokic has certainly had the best and most consistent regular season so far, but his playoff defense so far is a pretty big red flag with how he gets targeted in some extended spaced out p and r. I don’t think it’s something you can flag as a non issue, it sounds trollish sometimes because haters are usually the ones saying it, but the fact that the nuggets defence consistently goes from below average to horrendous in the playoffs with him on the floor for the past three years in every single series he’s played in except the Clippers collapse is enough to warrant caution in evaluating him

i guess it's less that you put him with jokic (for the playoff defense, giannis is clearly ahead of steph) but more that he has somehow separated from others. there doesn't seem to be much from the past 1.5 years for luka or 2.5 years for KD (or ever for KD really) that would make steph better than them other than "ringz".

The thing is currys always had that absurd non box score impact with his off ball gravity that’s made him one of the most impactful guys on that end ever, and especially since their losses are mostly from their bench, Currys season was near his unanimous mvp season just with much less help (nearing, I don’t think it was quite there of course).

curry hasn't really been that near his unanimous mvp season in anything other than raw points/rebounds/assists. box metrics are way below, TS+ is basically at his career average, and even his best friend RPM only has him at 5th this season, which based on steph's history with that stat (leading it basically every year and by a mile in 2016) would be like ranking a normal player at 15th or 20th. that's kind of my point. steph isn't having some 2016 season, by numbers, impact, or team record. he's having a 2023 KD season. and below 2023 luka doncic season.

Comparing what they’ve done the past two years is silly, KD was unlucky but at the end of the day he lost in round 2 in 7 to the eventual champs and then got swept pretty badly last year. Curry won last year, it’s not comparable and something you can say - he won 1 season he won the other season.

how is it not comparable? if we're doing this on a rolling basis. steph and KD have never been separated by a tier outside of 2016 and nothing in recent history suggests they should be and nothing from this season suggests they should be. we're literally coming off of steph not even making the playoffs for 2 straight years if we're looking at team results on a rolling basis.

that's why i said "there doesn't seem like much difference other than "won ring because teammates = healthy". it's like steph was smart for telling klay and draymond to stay healthy in the playoffs but KD lowered his impact by not telling harden and kyrie to stay healthy. that doesn't make much sense and seems weird to penalize KD for having the best series of either of he or curry in his series against the bucks and penalizing KD for the boston series is tough in a curry argument considering curry wasn't even in the playoffs in a recent season because he couldn't win just 1 of 2 play-in games the year before.

Luka is weird, people here say his impact isn’t as high as you’d expect and obv I get that it’s true but from an ability perspective I wouldn’t be suprised if he was the best in the league by a lot lol.

i feel like the suns series last year needs to put the impact argument to bed. impact metrics like some guys, they don't seem to like others. we haven't seen steph do anything like that in his career in terms of numbers and quality of opponent and being the road team.

Just gonna summarize a bit

1. The Warriors roster is very expensive =/= the Warriors roster is very good. Currys point differential (I assume you mean net rtg) was insane before he got hurt too, but that’s a lot from just starters and the bench brings worlds apart.

2.I can vibe with the Luka argument tbh. With KD it’s hard, he was great in 2021 and Curry was too, I don’t think it’s on Curry that they didn’t make the playoffs when they really weren’t playing through him enough (in spite of the averages) till the end when they went on a run, they were still trying to run Warriors bball.

Otoh, KD was great in 2021, better year, but as close as he probably was to winning you can’t compare it to, actually winning. Ringzzz gets clowned on but at the end of the day that’s the goal, you get a boost for reaching that goal, altho I do think the idea that curry retroactively put all his playoff concerns to rest I don’t necessarily vibe with (not that I think there are any big particular ones). KD in 2022 flamed out in the playoffs and that’s a pretty big knock untill he goes there again for me. I agree he’s had a better season than Curry this year all around with Curry missing games.

In any case comparing their performances in their early defeats seem silly, Curry dropped 2 near 40 point games while durant had one of the worst series of his career

3. I was talking about his level of play in the past half of the year at the time of my post, which I said since they started clicking again, so 17 out of the 26 ish games he played, where his numbers were similar to his mvp year, considering one bad game dropped his averages a bit his level of play and impact stuff was similar

4. I agree that Curry hasn’t upset another team the way Luka did. The issue is that it’s hard to blame Curry for that when he’s been favored in pretty much every series he’s ever played in during his prime except for the Toronto series where he was fine, altho I think it’s extremely overhyped.

I do think Kd gets underrated historically because of those Warriors years, in the sense that because Curry was the engine his impact stuff will of course look a lot better, and Kd was/is genuinely insane.

I don’t think any of this arguments bring Curry down though, they more so bring the others up. I do think it doesn’t make sense to compare what they’ve done the past two years when Curry objectively has had more success if we are talking about team results, and I don’t think it makes sense to flip flop on how they performed vs if they won in one case or another.

Based on current season performance I don’t really mind KD or Luka being there, the seperation between
KD/Luka/Jokic/Giannis/Embiid/Curry isn’t absurd in my opinion, all of them have mvp arguments, and evaluating them too considering the valid concerns you could have for those players

I think it’s fair to have faith in the guy that won last year to have him at or near the top of the list though.

I think Luka is potentially the most talented guy in the league, at least offensively

[Stan]

Did this dude really leave an option for top 10 I don't think there's a single thing I'll see in all of 2023 that will surpass that in ridiculousness.

[NbaAllDay]

Did this dude really leave an option for top 10 I don't think there's a single thing I'll see in all of 2023 that will surpass that in ridiculousness.

If this is the most ridiculous thing you'll read, i can't imagine you'll look at much at all in 2023.