Ranking the biggest legacy defining losses in NBA history.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't think/feel that there's really been that many legacy defining losses in nba history. As in the player is associated with that loss more than anything else and might even make people think of him as a choker as a result. The closest I would put up there are Ewing in the 94 finals and Webber in the 02 wcf(coupled with the timeout call in college). Both of those kind of hang over each guy imo.

[Lost92Bricks]

I can't be the only one who remembers a year straight of "don't let this distract from the fact that the Warriors blew a 3-1 lead"

That only mattered in 2017 before the Warriors won the finals. Nobody cares anymore.

You could argue losing that series actually helped him and the Warriors. They got KD, dominated the league and won 3 rings after that.

Curry is not someone you associate with disappointment or struggle. He's like the NBA's rich dude.

[f4p]

does lebron get blame for them not being that good in the rs iyo? Superficially dwight rs feels more impressive, granted sqaured's RAPM disagrees with me strongly on 2011 lebron(1 year apm is not an ideal thing tho).

Dont think its a good idea to focus on srs as opposed to cast/level of support since player performance is part of srs

I didn't mention SRS?

Of course Lebron deserves a lot of credit/blame depending on how you feel the 2010-11 Miami Heat met expectations. I think they exceeded any reasonable ones. That team was literally rebuilt basically from scratch. Wade and Haslem maybe the only holdovers? Certainly the only relevant ones. So there was an adjustment period as shown by them still being around .500 at the 1/4 pole before going on a lengthy winning streak--stopped by.......the Dallas Mavericks. Then they advanced to the Finals, were in literally every game in that series and lost yes in part because Lebron played really passively down the stretch, but also because this one guy who was pretty good himself that year, closed out the 4th quarters in heroic fashion. Dirk made the plays that had to be made. Maybe Dirk should get some credit not just Lebron some blame?

ahh, i hadn't looked below your name on the left. i was wondering why you were being more pro-Lebron than even the biggest lebron fans (and i'm one of them) when talking about that series. you want to pump up Dirk.

The problem is a decade later all some people remember is the starpower. They don't care about the depth, the coaching, the injuries, the matchups. It's all now just an exercise of star-counting. And again, with Lebron specifically he has a lot with a vested interest to judge him by standards they hold nobody else to--though that may be fair since he is the GOAT.

you said the heat exceeded all expectations. but they had an over/under of 64.5 wins. that's not forgetting everything a decade later. that's the people at the time putting their money where their mouth is expecting 64.5 wins, even knowing the fact the heat were basically 3 stars plus replacement level players (with haslem and mike miller basically out of commission all season). now, the heat did win 58 and were probably better than that considering their early adjustment period and the absolutely absurd number of close games they lost and the games they lost in ridiculous fashion (i.e. paul millsap literally equaling his career 3 pointers made total in the final 28 seconds of regulation). and in the playoffs they went from i think being 0-6 against the bulls and celtics in the regular season to going 4-1/4-1 against them in the playoffs. but all of that was based on lebron not becoming a 17 ppg, 2 points in the 4th quarter, can't score on jj barea and can't guard jason terry nightmare version of himself. and even after seeing the mavs in the playoffs, vegas still had the heat as a -180 favorite against the mavs, so again people aren't just misremembering things from 11 years. yes, vegas odds do factor in how the public bets, but they still somewhat conform to what vegas expects as they would like to take the public's money if they think the public is being stupid.

it's simply hard to play the "what else could we expect" card when the heat won game 1 with lebron not really doing that much (got hot from 3 but was already showing how passive he would be), blew a 15 point lead with 7 minutes to go in a game 2 they would have won if anyone had made a shot in those final 7 minutes, and won game 3. they were a massive choke job from being up 3-0, even with lebron not doing much. he had a bare minimum job of just looking competent to win that series and somehow lost in 6. and not because he shot 25 times and missed 20 of them. because he looked scared of the moment and everything about how he played would back that up. if lebron puts up 27/7/7 and a veteran mavs team just makes life tough for the heat and dirk plays out of his mind and dallas wins, then ok, people clowing lebron are just haters. maybe we can talking about stevenson shooting 50% from 3. or chandler getting a million tip back rebounds against the smaller heat. but dirk had probably his worst series of the playoffs. other than the 4th quarters, he didn't look like 2nd round and WCF dirk. he didn't even shoot well in the close out game. all dwade needed was a little help from lebron and the heat win. that's why he rightly gets held back for this series.

you say it's a small sample size, but it's a small sample size of the most important games. you can't choke away a finals and say "but look at the bigger sample" when comparing yourself in a GOAT argument. against everyone else? sure. but no one holds lebron back against magic or bird or duncan or hakeem or shaq or even kareem or russell for those 2011 finals. it's just usually against MJ. because, even over a small sample, he doesn't have that disaster on his resume. and he had 6 chances to fall apart like that, and didn't.

So not an upset, but if it was an upset, it still shouldn't define his legacy. Why uniquely to Lebron does this one series define him? It makes zero sense.

maybe we are just talking about different things. i am thinking about "defining" a legacy as an irreversible change to how someone is viewed, not that it's the only thing we ever talk about (and other responses in this thread seem more in line with that way of thinking). this series isn't the only thing about lebron, but it forever changed his perception in a harmful way. in the context of changing one thing about someone's career, this more than anything keeps lebron behind jordan for many people. people can bring up 6 finals losses, but they know the other ones were basically impossible to win. this one, lebron has no defense. that doesn't mean nothing else about lebron is better than jordan, just that the 2011 finals are a very effective weapon and a legacy-definer in the sense that he could win 6 titles and this would still be there lurking.

[Texas Chuck]

ahh, i hadn't looked below your name on the left. i was wondering why you were being more pro-Lebron than even the biggest lebron fans (and i'm one of them) when talking about that series. you want to pump up Dirk.

I never hide my fandom or love for Dirk. I try and be as open and upfront about potential bias as I can.

so if you think I am nothing but a homer, then we are done here. You shouldn't waste any more time with me.

[coastalmarker99]

The Heat in 2011 were expected to crush the league.

And outside of a rough start to start the season.

They basically did what most people thought would happen as they won 58 games and then they went 12 and 3 in the east playoffs.

And if not for massive choke job in game 2 they could have easily swept the Mavs.


As they would have been up 3-0 even with lebron not doing much at that point.

[No-more-rings]

does lebron get blame for them not being that good in the rs iyo? Superficially dwight rs feels more impressive, granted sqaured's RAPM disagrees with me strongly on 2011 lebron(1 year apm is not an ideal thing tho).

Dont think its a good idea to focus on srs as opposed to cast/level of support since player performance is part of srs

I didn't mention SRS?

Of course Lebron deserves a lot of credit/blame depending on how you feel the 2010-11 Miami Heat met expectations. I think they exceeded any reasonable ones. That team was literally rebuilt basically from scratch. Wade and Haslem maybe the only holdovers? Certainly the only relevant ones. So there was an adjustment period as shown by them still being around .500 at the 1/4 pole before going on a lengthy winning streak--stopped by.......the Dallas Mavericks. Then they advanced to the Finals, were in literally every game in that series and lost yes in part because Lebron played really passively down the stretch, but also because this one guy who was pretty good himself that year, closed out the 4th quarters in heroic fashion. Dirk made the plays that had to be made. Maybe Dirk should get some credit not just Lebron some blame?

ahh, i hadn't looked below your name on the left. i was wondering why you were being more pro-Lebron than even the biggest lebron fans (and i'm one of them) when talking about that series. you want to pump up Dirk.

The problem is a decade later all some people remember is the starpower. They don't care about the depth, the coaching, the injuries, the matchups. It's all now just an exercise of star-counting. And again, with Lebron specifically he has a lot with a vested interest to judge him by standards they hold nobody else to--though that may be fair since he is the GOAT.

you said the heat exceeded all expectations. but they had an over/under of 64.5 wins. that's not forgetting everything a decade later. that's the people at the time putting their money where their mouth is expecting 64.5 wins, even knowing the fact the heat were basically 3 stars plus replacement level players (with haslem and mike miller basically out of commission all season). now, the heat did win 58 and were probably better than that considering their early adjustment period and the absolutely absurd number of close games they lost and the games they lost in ridiculous fashion (i.e. paul millsap literally equaling his career 3 pointers made total in the final 28 seconds of regulation). and in the playoffs they went from i think being 0-6 against the bulls and celtics in the regular season to going 4-1/4-1 against them in the playoffs. but all of that was based on lebron not becoming a 17 ppg, 2 points in the 4th quarter, can't score on jj barea and can't guard jason terry nightmare version of himself. and even after seeing the mavs in the playoffs, vegas still had the heat as a -180 favorite against the mavs, so again people aren't just misremembering things from 11 years. yes, vegas odds do factor in how the public bets, but they still somewhat conform to what vegas expects as they would like to take the public's money if they think the public is being stupid.

it's simply hard to play the "what else could we expect" card when the heat won game 1 with lebron not really doing that much (got hot from 3 but was already showing how passive he would be), blew a 15 point lead with 7 minutes to go in a game 2 they would have won if anyone had made a shot in those final 7 minutes, and won game 3. they were a massive choke job from being up 3-0, even with lebron not doing much. he had a bare minimum job of just looking competent to win that series and somehow lost in 6. and not because he shot 25 times and missed 20 of them. because he looked scared of the moment and everything about how he played would back that up. if lebron puts up 27/7/7 and a veteran mavs team just makes life tough for the heat and dirk plays out of his mind and dallas wins, then ok, people clowing lebron are just haters. maybe we can talking about stevenson shooting 50% from 3. or chandler getting a million tip back rebounds against the smaller heat. but dirk had probably his worst series of the playoffs. other than the 4th quarters, he didn't look like 2nd round and WCF dirk. he didn't even shoot well in the close out game. all dwade needed was a little help from lebron and the heat win. that's why he rightly gets held back for this series.

you say it's a small sample size, but it's a small sample size of the most important games. you can't choke away a finals and say "but look at the bigger sample" when comparing yourself in a GOAT argument. against everyone else? sure. but no one holds lebron back against magic or bird or duncan or hakeem or shaq or even kareem or russell for those 2011 finals. it's just usually against MJ. because, even over a small sample, he doesn't have that disaster on his resume. and he had 6 chances to fall apart like that, and didn't.

So not an upset, but if it was an upset, it still shouldn't define his legacy. Why uniquely to Lebron does this one series define him? It makes zero sense.

maybe we are just talking about different things. i am thinking about "defining" a legacy as an irreversible change to how someone is viewed, not that it's the only thing we ever talk about (and other responses in this thread seem more in line with that way of thinking). this series isn't the only thing about lebron, but it forever changed his perception in a harmful way. in the context of changing one thing about someone's career, this more than anything keeps lebron behind jordan for many people. people can bring up 6 finals losses, but they know the other ones were basically impossible to win. this one, lebron has no defense. that doesn't mean nothing else about lebron is better than jordan, just that the 2011 finals are a very effective weapon and a legacy-definer in the sense that he could win 6 titles and this would still be there lurking.

Yeah on top of all this because these are good points, bringing up the Heat regular season record vs the Mavs is pretty irrelevant considering the Bulls also went 3-0 against the Heat in the regular season and also won game 1 so they went like 4-0 against them before the Heat went eventually backdoor swept them. The difference was Lebron figured them out after a rough game 1 for him and he was dominant the next 4 games for the most part.

The idea that the Mavs were this all time great defense armed to the teeth ready for Lebron is just laughable. Part of the problem was Lebron’s jumper was off among other things, but yeah if you can’t hit jumpers over a 6 foot or 6’4 guy then there was clearly problems upstairs.

[Narigo]

73 Kareem deserves a mention imo. Nate Thurmond was his kryptonite

[Shohoku High]

I wonder how the legacies would change if DRob and Hakeem 95 WCF results was reversed. If DRob outperformed Hakeem and went on to win the 95 finals.

[f4p]

I wonder how the legacies would change if DRob and Hakeem 95 WCF results was reversed. If DRob outperformed Hakeem and went on to win the 95 finals.

that assumes he's also having to basically be equal to or outperform shaq so that would be 2 huge series on his resume. his 1994 and 1996 playoffs show big dropoffs but people don't even really focus on those now, so if he had a ring, they would barely notice them. also, if he still turned the team over to duncan, it would probably be even more impressive from a selflessness perspective, though you have to wonder if he does if he thinks of himself as a championship leader. either way, with his stats, you have to think he's top 15 even for the general public (maybe 12 or 13) and seen as every bit hakeem's equal. might even be over hakeem in the consensus view, especially since hakeem would no longer have his most impressive individual legacy series on his resume.

[karmew32]

I don't think/feel that there's really been that many legacy defining losses in nba history. As in the player is associated with that loss more than anything else and might even make people think of him as a choker as a result. The closest I would put up there are Ewing in the 94 finals and Webber in the 02 wcf(coupled with the timeout call in college). Both of those kind of hang over each guy imo.

That loss has not only hung over Webber, but the entire Kings franchise. I'd go as far to say that the city of Sacramento would be entirely different had the Kings won that game.

Russell still beat Wilt 8/10 times rather than 9/10 times in the playoffs. I don't think it completely shift the narrative and additionally, I think the 69 loss with the Lakers hurts Wilt more.

It hurts the entire 1960s Lakers. That was their best chance to beat the Celtics as they had the much better roster. Not to mention the balloons in the rafters and the flyers in the seats.

One not yet listed is the 2007 WCSF to the Spurs for the SSOL Suns. After their learning experience loss in 2005 and their injury-plagued loss in 2006, the Suns were finally poised to overtake the Spurs and rise to the top. But Amare and Diaw were essentially punished for checking on their teammate.

[penbeast0]

I wonder how the legacies would change if DRob and Hakeem 95 WCF results was reversed. If DRob outperformed Hakeem and went on to win the 95 finals.

Well, since DRob was the better regular season performer, if he clearly gets the better of Hakeem in their one playoff head to head then wins a title so their titles are equal, I think he is ranked higher despite Hakeem's other years of playoff improvement.

[SilentA]

I'm going with the Indiana Pacers losing to the Chicago Bulls in the 1997-98 NBA Eastern Conference Finals in game 7.

Imagine Reggie Miller stopping the second three-peat as the opposing shooting guard to MJ and as the "main guy" (without a teammate as good as Scottie Pippen), and then going onto winning the championship, which I think they would have over the Jazz.

Then think about how much people have underrated Reggie Miller over the years as a second tier ringless shooting guard known for not much else outside of shooting 3s and trolling NY fans.