Is an offense with a single dominant scorer still less efficient?

[tsherkin]

luka is an interesting example because as phenomenal as his box-stuff looks his impact doesn't really match up

Mmmm...

Topping the league in oEPM right now at +8.7 (+1.1 over the second-place guy, Jokic). Dallas is the 5th-best offense in the league without really much else on the team.

123 ORTG, league-high +9.2 OBPM (b-ref), .275 WS/48. First in the league in Box Creation, 6th in Passer Rating, tops in the league in ESPN's oRPM. Raw on/off team ORTG for Luka this year is +14.5.

I mean, everything seems to support his impact right now. Or did you mean in previous seasons?

[AussieBuck]

Bucks are currently playing a helio offense around Giannis out of necessity. It's a slog without PG play having him create everything from the perimeter for the team while going at 40 USG%. Big man Giannis and all the action it facilitates is sorely missed at the moment with all the playmaking absences on the team.

[eminence]

.

I think I might argue Magic/Bird as still falling within the classic pivot paradigm, and even Tex/Phil had a lot of it within the triangle. After that... Not so much of it left now I suppose until recently with Jokic and Sabonis, who honestly might play it a bit more like I classically imagine than Jokic, just isn't as good and has to share with Fox (who is clearly not a pivot).

[OhayoKD]

luka is an interesting example because as phenomenal as his box-stuff looks his impact doesn't really match up

Mmmm...

Topping the league in oEPM right now at +8.7 (+1.1 over the second-place guy, Jokic). Dallas is the 5th-best offense in the league without really much else on the team.

123 ORTG, league-high +9.2 OBPM (b-ref), .275 WS/48. First in the league in Box Creation, 6th in Passer Rating, tops in the league in ESPN's oRPM. Raw on/off team ORTG for Luka this year is +14.5.

I mean, everything seems to support his impact right now. Or did you mean in previous seasons?

previous seasons yeah, no idea what his stuff is right now, but people have been telling me that luka's impact isn't great when i've hyped him up. Maybe its a defense thing?

[f4p]

I used to think of helioccentric offense as being too predictable. People use the Wilt railroading example a lot. I think the Harden/D'Antoni/Moreyball Rockets is another good example. Those Rockets tried to trim the fat and only take the most efficient shots possible (Harden drive, Harden lob to Capela, Harden pass to the right corner, Harden step back). But when the Rockets failed it looked too dogmatic because it allowed defenses to overload against that short list of moves. Defenses that are prepared for a specific action are going to be more likely to be able to lower the efficiency of those actions.

Then there was Cleveland Lebron (either version). Lots of Lebron detractors complained he monopolized the ball too much, wasted teammate's talents, or didn't utilize all the off-ball things he should be so good at. The pro-Lebron perspective was that it didn't make sense to take the ball out of Lebron's hands because the ball in Lebron's hands produced the best possible offense. Lebron was lot more improvisational than Harden, which probably made him less brutally efficient in some regular seasons but more resilient as a scorer/playmaker in the playoffs.

When you get into helioccentrism with a genius-level passer (specifically Nash, Jokic, Magic), that's going to produce all-time great offense. Jokic may not monopolize the ball as a ballhandler like Nash and Magic did, but the Nuggets system still runs through him getting touches and being involved in every action. I think that Jokic can add screening and all-time brutal paint scoring to the helioccentric model is something (like others have mentioned) that we haven't seen before, despite the passing pivot being around as long as the NBA.

But even with someone like Luka, (who is the new Lebron is terms of the narrative of ball dominance and teammates) we're seeing how modern offensive principles increase offensive efficiency in a helio model. The kinds of screening action that Luka runs off of is so much more sophisticated than anything than Nash or Magic had to work with. So it's helio offense in terms of using, but the team is working harder/smarter to put the helio playmaker in positions of advantage.

luka is an interesting example because as phenomenal as his box-stuff looks his impact doesn't really match up

well, either way, last year's mavs went from a +0.8 rORtg in the regular season to +7.5 rORtg in the playoffs. so that's certainly one heliocentric offense that didn't get worse.

someone mentioned harden and the rockets (who mostly got stopped because they played the KD warriors, not because they were predictable). in 2017/18/19, the rORtg in the playoffs seems within +/- 1 point of the rORtg in the regular season. i didn't write the numbers down and was adding things in my head but it seemed correct (note, 2018 WCF numbers use golden state's non-rockets playoff rDRtg as they clearly didn't give a crap in the regular season and then played league-leading defense in the playoffs).

[falcolombardi]

I used to think of helioccentric offense as being too predictable. People use the Wilt railroading example a lot. I think the Harden/D'Antoni/Moreyball Rockets is another good example. Those Rockets tried to trim the fat and only take the most efficient shots possible (Harden drive, Harden lob to Capela, Harden pass to the right corner, Harden step back). But when the Rockets failed it looked too dogmatic because it allowed defenses to overload against that short list of moves. Defenses that are prepared for a specific action are going to be more likely to be able to lower the efficiency of those actions.

Then there was Cleveland Lebron (either version). Lots of Lebron detractors complained he monopolized the ball too much, wasted teammate's talents, or didn't utilize all the off-ball things he should be so good at. The pro-Lebron perspective was that it didn't make sense to take the ball out of Lebron's hands because the ball in Lebron's hands produced the best possible offense. Lebron was lot more improvisational than Harden, which probably made him less brutally efficient in some regular seasons but more resilient as a scorer/playmaker in the playoffs.

When you get into helioccentrism with a genius-level passer (specifically Nash, Jokic, Magic), that's going to produce all-time great offense. Jokic may not monopolize the ball as a ballhandler like Nash and Magic did, but the Nuggets system still runs through him getting touches and being involved in every action. I think that Jokic can add screening and all-time brutal paint scoring to the helioccentric model is something (like others have mentioned) that we haven't seen before, despite the passing pivot being around as long as the NBA.

But even with someone like Luka, (who is the new Lebron is terms of the narrative of ball dominance and teammates) we're seeing how modern offensive principles increase offensive efficiency in a helio model. The kinds of screening action that Luka runs off of is so much more sophisticated than anything than Nash or Magic had to work with. So it's helio offense in terms of using, but the team is working harder/smarter to put the helio playmaker in positions of advantage.

luka is an interesting example because as phenomenal as his box-stuff looks his impact doesn't really match up

well, either way, last year's mavs went from a +0.8 rORtg in the regular season to +7.5 rORtg in the playoffs. so that's certainly one heliocentric offense that didn't get worse.

someone mentioned harden and the rockets (who mostly got stopped because they played the KD warriors, not because they were predictable). in 2017/18/19, the rORtg in the playoffs seems within +/- 1 point of the rORtg in the regular season. i didn't write the numbers down and was adding things in my head but it seemed correct (note, 2018 WCF numbers use golden state's non-rockets playoff rDRtg as they clearly didn't give a crap in the regular season and then played league-leading defense in the playoffs).

Agree with your comment

Harden playoffs drop off in offense is a fairly overstated narrative, he is not hakeem becoming better against better competition but neither is he 1st option david robinson

[tsherkin]

previous seasons yeah, no idea what his stuff is right now, but people have been telling me that luka's impact isn't great when i've hyped him up. Maybe its a defense thing?

It's possible that it's the case in earlier seasons, but definitely not this year, heh.

[Doctor MJ]

.

I think I might argue Magic/Bird as still falling within the classic pivot paradigm, and even Tex/Phil had a lot of it within the triangle. After that... Not so much of it left now I suppose until recently with Jokic and Sabonis, who honestly might play it a bit more like I classically imagine than Jokic, just isn't as good and has to share with Fox (who is clearly not a pivot).

Good to bring up Bird & Magic, but to me that feels like mostly convergent evolution. I think if Bird & Magic were trying to play like Walton, they would have looked more like Walton. I think Bird, Magic & Jokic are three guys who basically just came at basketball their own way, and showed similarity because of how good they were as seeing the court and making passes.

I will say that it's hard to imagine that the Globetrotters didn't influence Magic's flair, but I don't think he developed his competitive trying to emulate the non-competitive Globetrotters.

Re: Triangle. Great point. The Triangle and the Princeton offenses from what I know have their roots in the 1930s when intersectional (East Coast vs Midwest vs West Coast) play began in college, and not long after the Scientific Basketball era. I don't know the details of how they all relate, but the thinking behind them was similar, and the fact that we really do have a direct lineage all the way to this day in the NBA (Golden State) shows it's never really gone away.

Feels like it's flatlined a few times tho...

[70sFan]

For Jokic-lite offenses, I know Doctor MJ won't like this but by far the clearest example is what Sixers did under Hannum in 1967-68 period.

[falcolombardi]

For Jokic-lite offenses, I know Doctor MJ won't like this but by far the clearest example is what Sixers did under Hannum in 1967-68 period.

Pretty much The first great motion offense right?

[Doctor MJ]

For Jokic-lite offenses, I know Doctor MJ won't like this but by far the clearest example is what Sixers did under Hannum in 1967-68 period.

Really, more so than the Ramsay Blazers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Doctor MJ]

For Jokic-lite offenses, I know Doctor MJ won't like this but by far the clearest example is what Sixers did under Hannum in 1967-68 period.

Pretty much The first great motion offense right?

That’d be the 1920s Original Celtics I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[70sFan]

For Jokic-lite offenses, I know Doctor MJ won't like this but by far the clearest example is what Sixers did under Hannum in 1967-68 period.

Really, more so than the Ramsay Blazers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not "more" but at the same level.

[tsherkin]

For Jokic-lite offenses, I know Doctor MJ won't like this but by far the clearest example is what Sixers did under Hannum in 1967-68 period.

ANd if I'm not mistaken, Holzman's Knicks were the proto-triangle, no? BAsed on Sam Barry's USC offense?

[70sFan]

For Jokic-lite offenses, I know Doctor MJ won't like this but by far the clearest example is what Sixers did under Hannum in 1967-68 period.

ANd if I'm not mistaken, Holzman's Knicks were the proto-triangle, no? BAsed on Sam Barry's USC offense?

I think Knicks offense was more P&R heavy than Jackson triangle and they used post ups less.

[falcolombardi]

For Jokic-lite offenses, I know Doctor MJ won't like this but by far the clearest example is what Sixers did under Hannum in 1967-68 period.

ANd if I'm not mistaken, Holzman's Knicks were the proto-triangle, no? BAsed on Sam Barry's USC offense?

I think Knicks offense was more P&R heavy than Jackson triangle and they used post ups less.

I dont remember them using side pick and roll as much as they pushed the pace and moved the ball around a lot (both thinghs fed of each other)

It felt more "attack and pass" to me in the games i watched of them vs lakers/bucks, did knicks usually play pick and roll a lot?

[70sFan]

I dont remember them using side pick and roll as much as they pushed the pace and moved the ball around a lot (both thinghs fed of each other)

It felt more "attack and pass" to me in the games i watched of them vs lakers/bucks, did knicks usually play pick and roll a lot?

It's not "a lot of P&R" in modern sense, but they relied more on P&P actions with their stretch bigs and many hand-off actions on perimeter. I agree it's a lot of "attack and pass" approach.

[OhayoKD]

Bucks are currently playing a helio offense around Giannis out of necessity. It's a slog without PG play having him create everything from the perimeter for the team while going at 40 USG%. Big man Giannis and all the action it facilitates is sorely missed at the moment with all the playmaking absences on the team.

Didn't the bucks best two regular seasons come with helio-giannis?

[AussieBuck]

Bucks are currently playing a helio offense around Giannis out of necessity. It's a slog without PG play having him create everything from the perimeter for the team while going at 40 USG%. Big man Giannis and all the action it facilitates is sorely missed at the moment with all the playmaking absences on the team.

Didn't the bucks best two regular seasons come with helio-giannis?

Yeah, but that was driven more by having a monstrous D. The role playing veterans were also not ancient back then.