Kobe vs. Oscar vs. West Prime Season Rankings

[rk2023]

Hello all,

I hope your start to 2023 has been going well! As one who is getting more used to using the forum and this sector of it in particular, I definitely enjoy some of the debates, discourse, and projects around here. With that said, I've seen some Oscar/Kobe/West discourse as of lately and am curious to look into their primes more (similar manner to Odinn21's project from fall of 2021).

With that being said, how would you all rank the top 12 seasons between Jerry West and Oscar Robertson (might continue this later for West v Kobe, and Oscar v Kobe if it can spark some good debate). Thanks!

[Proxy]

For these players my most recent ranking for the top peaks project went

'66 - '70 West
'63 ' - '65 Oscar
'06 - '09 Kobe

Some seasonal rankings could change based on things like health or smaller sample playoff performance, but this is generally how I feel about those versions in terms of "goodness".

EDIT: I suppose 1964 West maybe rounds out my 12 depending on how I weigh his 1967 injury? Not sure on the last spot atm between that, 62/66/67 Oscar, and 01/03/10 Kobe.

[eminence]

I'd probably go with Oscar>West>Kobe for prime season valuations.

Oscar I have as a serious contender for offensive GOAT in his prime, the other two a step behind that. West a good, but slightly overrated imo defender, the other two just respectable on defense, not particularly noteworthy in either direction in their primes. West with more injury issues than the others.

For overall guard primes I'd have them all quite high.
1. MJ
2. Steph
3. Magic
4. Oscar
5. West
6. Wade
7. Kobe
8. CP3
9. Nash
10. Harden

[Jaivl]

The following seasons are all +5 level and above in my book

Spoiler:

64 Oscar
67 Oscar
65 Oscar
66 Oscar
63 Oscar

66 West
68 West
69 West
70 West
65 West

08 Kobe
06 Kobe
09 Kobe
07 Kobe
10 Kobe
03 Kobe
(01 Kobe depending on how you value that)

Gun to my head I think I'd go peak West > Kobe >= Oscar? So something like

1. 66 West
2. 08 Kobe
3. 64 Oscar
4. 68 West

and then I'm basically splitting hairs.

[rk2023]

The following seasons are all +5 level and above in my book

Spoiler:

64 Oscar
67 Oscar
65 Oscar
66 Oscar
63 Oscar

66 West
68 West
69 West
70 West
65 West

08 Kobe
06 Kobe
09 Kobe
07 Kobe
10 Kobe
03 Kobe
(01 Kobe depending on how you value that)

Gun to my head I think I'd go peak West > Kobe >= Oscar? So something like

1. 66 West
2. 08 Kobe
3. 64 Oscar
4. 68 West

and then I'm basically splitting hairs.

I think the Princeton offense enabled West to have his best season on a /poss. basis in 1968, I like 1966 all in all considering he's playing more. I think he's the best player in the league that season as well

[OhayoKD]

The following seasons are all +5 level and above in my book

Spoiler:

64 Oscar
67 Oscar
65 Oscar
66 Oscar
63 Oscar

66 West
68 West
69 West
70 West
65 West

08 Kobe
06 Kobe
09 Kobe
07 Kobe
10 Kobe
03 Kobe
(01 Kobe depending on how you value that)

Gun to my head I think I'd go peak West > Kobe >= Oscar? So something like

1. 66 West
2. 08 Kobe
3. 64 Oscar
4. 68 West

and then I'm basically splitting hairs.

I think the Princeton offense enabled West to have his best season on a /poss. basis in 1968, I like 1966 all in all considering he's playing more. I think he's the best player in the league that season as well

Now that's a fascinating claim. Would like to hear his case against Russell and Wilt

[Dutchball97]

The following seasons are all +5 level and above in my book

Spoiler:

64 Oscar
67 Oscar
65 Oscar
66 Oscar
63 Oscar

66 West
68 West
69 West
70 West
65 West

08 Kobe
06 Kobe
09 Kobe
07 Kobe
10 Kobe
03 Kobe
(01 Kobe depending on how you value that)

Gun to my head I think I'd go peak West > Kobe >= Oscar? So something like

1. 66 West
2. 08 Kobe
3. 64 Oscar
4. 68 West

and then I'm basically splitting hairs.

I think the Princeton offense enabled West to have his best season on a /poss. basis in 1968, I like 1966 all in all considering he's playing more. I think he's the best player in the league that season as well

Now that's a fascinating claim. Would like to hear his case against Russell and Wilt

I think this mostly comes down to Russell and Wilt not having particular standout seasons in 1966. West meanwhile was really getting into his own around this time and the 66 season is even regarded as his best or at least one of his best seasons. For reference in the POY project West was pretty universally ranked 3rd, while being the only one besides Russell and Wilt to receive a first place vote. Even though I'd probably also put him behind Russell and Wilt, when considering the level of help West had that season I don't think it's that out there to have him in the mix.

[rk2023]

I think the Princeton offense enabled West to have his best season on a /poss. basis in 1968, I like 1966 all in all considering he's playing more. I think he's the best player in the league that season as well

Now that's a fascinating claim. Would like to hear his case against Russell and Wilt

I think this mostly comes down to Russell and Wilt not having particular standout seasons in 1966. West meanwhile was really getting into his own around this time and the 66 season is even regarded as his best or at least one of his best seasons. For reference in the POY project West was pretty universally ranked 3rd, while being the only one besides Russell and Wilt to receive a first place vote. Even though I'd probably also put him behind Russell and Wilt, when considering the level of help West had that season I don't think it's that out there to have him in the mix.

Agreed, I think 66 is a step down or so from Russell's prime of 62-65 - and a step up for West / "full passing of the torch" from Elgin in terms of controlling the offense.

Note that it's tough to break away in terms of standings and the Lakers were 45-35, but they still posted a top 3 SRS that season at 2.76 - catalyzed by West engining the league's best offense (98.3). IIRC, that team wasn't quite sized well compared to others anchored by a big-man, and their defense was flirting around league average.

In the regular season, West averaged 31.3, 7.1, 6.1 on 57.3%TS (8.6% above league average / 118 TS+). I'm not the biggest advocate for this stat, but .256 WS/48 - 2nd in the league - is quite impressive too.

For the "/75 possessions deflates this value" crowd, the devils' advocate to that would be that it is harder to stay efficient across a larger sample of possessions / simply playing and scoring more - and with a lower league average for base, such efficiency could be argued to be more valuable marginally (seen in TS+). FWIW, Rudy LaRusso and Bob Boozer were the only other Laker players considerably above league avg. efficiency and they were big-men with much less an offensive load or scoring responsibility. All in all, a pretty underrated floor raising effort.

Always known as a remarkable playoff scorer, West this year averaged 34.2/6.3/5.6 and saw his TS% uptick to 58.1 even with drawing the Celtics (still a great defense, to say the least) for half of the run. A ~3 point SRS underdog Hawks team took LA 7 games, but LA also went 7 games as a ~2 point SRS underdog to the 66 Celtics.

In the case of the latter, 5 games were within 5 points - including three LA wins and a game 7 that came down to a 2 point loss. West had 36 in this elimination game with being the only reliable scoring option for LA in a 95-93 slugfest.

West's Playoff WS/48 of .237 led the league as well.

Overall, I think the combination of RS + PS catapults him over Russell and Wilt that given season for me.

[Narigo]

West: 64-66,
Oscar: 62-67
Kobe: 06, 08, 09