Take the most optimistic view of Jokic's offense and the most pessimistic view of his defense. Where does his peak land?

[eminence]

James Harden, wcf, not title but better than pass first round

When? In 2015 when his team was good defensively despite him being a huge negative on that end and they had the 2nd best shooting team in the league? Or in 2018 when he had 2nd best team in the league?

Are you aware who Mutombo played with in 1994?

2019 Harden as 2018 MVP version is overkill

The 19 Rockets didn’t make the WCF.

[dygaction]

When? In 2015 when his team was good defensively despite him being a huge negative on that end and they had the 2nd best shooting team in the league? Or in 2018 when he had 2nd best team in the league?

Are you aware who Mutombo played with in 1994?

2019 Harden as 2018 MVP version is overkill

The 19 Rockets didn’t make the WCF.

He is asking Harden to take the 90s Nuggets, not that Rockets team

[No-more-rings]

I feel like the most pessimistic view of Jokic’s defense, is how some already view him here. He has exploitable weaknesses ok sure, but viewing him as a negative to the level of someone like Amare, or Enes Canter isn’t really fair. He’s more like Dirk level, solid fundamentals but lacks raw talent on that end. Given what Jokic’s done over the past 2-3 seasons, I don’t think anyone really doubts his offense anymore. So I think the most optimistic evaluation of his offense sort of already exists by most people on here. I think most at this point, recognize he’s going down as one of the goat offensive players, probably top 5 with a shot at best ever. No one will ever be the clear goat on offense, so this is about as optimistic as it gets.

It’s hard to answer where that puts him overall, because some value offense more than defense and vice versa.

So if he’s the goat offensive player, but a large negative on defense in playoff situations, it’s possible he can still be ranked out of the top 20 I suppose. I mean think about it, Nash gets offensive goat talk, and still isn’t in many people’s top 20 for peak or career.

[70sFan]

2019 Harden as 2018 MVP version is overkill

The 19 Rockets didn’t make the WCF.

He is asking Harden to take the 90s Nuggets, not that Rockets team

Yet he didn't with much superior team...

[dygaction]

The 19 Rockets didn’t make the WCF.

He is asking Harden to take the 90s Nuggets, not that Rockets team

Yet he didn't with much superior team...

Teams and teams are different, era and era are different. You would think putting KAJ or Duncan on 60 Celtics he would win more, right?

[70sFan]

He is asking Harden to take the 90s Nuggets, not that Rockets team

Yet he didn't with much superior team...

Teams and teams are different, era and era are different. You would think putting KAJ or Duncan on 60 Celtics he would win more, right?

It was a waste of time indeed.

[dygaction]

Yet he didn't with much superior team...

Teams and teams are different, era and era are different. You would think putting KAJ or Duncan on 60 Celtics he would win more, right?

It was a waste of time indeed.

You should realize it was a waste of time the moment you challenging others to find a player to bring 94 Nuggets to whatever records. Is it a testable/provable question? You want one I gave you one, I believe you don't, so what?

[70sFan]

Teams and teams are different, era and era are different. You would think putting KAJ or Duncan on 60 Celtics he would win more, right?

It was a waste of time indeed.

You should realize it was a waste of time the moment you challenging others to find a player to bring 94 Nuggets to whatever records. Is it a testable/provable question? You want one I gave you one, I believe you don't, so what?

I should realize it's a waste of time when you called 1994 Mutombo "a nice piece" who can't be the best player on a playoff team.

[dygaction]

It was a waste of time indeed.

You should realize it was a waste of time the moment you challenging others to find a player to bring 94 Nuggets to whatever records. Is it a testable/provable question? You want one I gave you one, I believe you don't, so what?

I should realize it's a waste of time when you called 1994 Mutombo "a nice piece" who can't be the best player on a playoff team.

I never said 1994. When you called out significant success I did not expect it was passing first round. Also the highlighted part, show it or stop lying. Don't run your mouth on behalf of me

[DCasey91]

Offensively? Easy top 10 ever when we look back at it when we crunch the numbers

Defensively? It’s even more susceptible now than ever before in the history of the game.

When you have not 1 not 2 but count them 5 perimeter threats from the pressure of the 3ball it’s basically open season for a slow moving big that’s not a great rim protector/deterrent even if there wasn’t 5 outside threats on the court at once.

We’ve seen Gobert get walked over because he cannot camp inside same issue with Jokic the huge difference is Gobert is a fantastic rim protector but that’s not going to stop players from bringing him out and burning him.

Would he be less exposed say in the 90’s? Of course but his defensive prowess would still be so so.

I’ll keep repeating it but unless Jokic goes into the Dirk mould structurally then no I disagree about people saying his portability is as great as Curry is.

At first sight I’m going to need a big/defensive guard 1 that can stifle pnr/screen play ala Rondo/Kidd/Holiday, and a rim protector but the rim protector has range Turner for example. It just lessens the portability for me.

I’d say around a top 20 peak overall not too dissimilar from Dirk.

[70sFan]

You should realize it was a waste of time the moment you challenging others to find a player to bring 94 Nuggets to whatever records. Is it a testable/provable question? You want one I gave you one, I believe you don't, so what?

I should realize it's a waste of time when you called 1994 Mutombo "a nice piece" who can't be the best player on a playoff team.

I never said 1994. When you called out significant success I did not expect it was passing first round. Also the highlighted part, show it or stop lying. Don't run your mouth on behalf of me

"Players with bad D, like Harden/Luka/Westbrook/Jokic/Nash/Trae, can carry a below-average roster to playoffs and even go deep; Players with bad O, like Chandler/Gobert/Ben Wallace/Rodman/Noah/Smart are going nowhere as your best player. "

...and

"I mean I like Mutombo and Thurmond, but they were nice pieces to their teams' success, I would not even call those "significant".

I really don't know how you can conclude anything else after that. Despite the fact that Westbrook didn't had more playoff success as the main guy (or as a second guy), Trae didn't do anything more than Mutombo, Harden and Luka never came out of the 2nd round with below-average roster... You use wrong arguments and wrong examples, but I am the one who "is lying". Just admit you got it wrong and move on.

[dygaction]

I should realize it's a waste of time when you called 1994 Mutombo "a nice piece" who can't be the best player on a playoff team.

I never said 1994. When you called out significant success I did not expect it was passing first round. Also the highlighted part, show it or stop lying. Don't run your mouth on behalf of me

"Players with bad D, like Harden/Luka/Westbrook/Jokic/Nash/Trae, can carry a below-average roster to playoffs and even go deep; Players with bad O, like Chandler/Gobert/Ben Wallace/Rodman/Noah/Smart are going nowhere as your best player. "

...and

"I mean I like Mutombo and Thurmond, but they were nice pieces to their teams' success, I would not even call those "significant".

I really don't know how you can conclude anything else after that. Despite the fact that Westbrook didn't had more playoff success as the main guy (or as a second guy), Trae didn't do anything more than Mutombo, Harden and Luka never came out of the 2nd round with below-average roster... You use wrong arguments and wrong examples, but I am the one who "is lying". Just admit you got it wrong and move on.

All of them, including Trae and Luka, have been to conference finals and still playing. LOL you force Mutombo and Thurmond in who were not even in my list. You hand picked two of the best defenders of ALL TIME both to second round. Just admit you got it wrong and move on.

[AEnigma]

Ben Wallace was the best player on the 2004 title winning team though.

Everyone can see you just assess “talent” by glancing at points per game, which is why obviously teams like the 2003-05 Pistons do not count. Yet Luka made the conference finals with a better defence than offence. The Steve Kerr Warriors have almost always seen their defence hold up better in the postseason than their offence. The 2011/12 Bulls were led by Derrick Rose… and a pair of -6 relative defences. And then of course you have players like Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, who were all offering similar or greater defensive impact as those names you just listed, except with the added benefit that they were all capable on offence too.

I will give you a modicum of credit in that you do not seem to be one of those Jordan stans who, despite putting all their stock into who is doing the most on offence, spends all their time complaining about the offensive success we see in the NBA today. But unfortunately the lesson you seem to have taken from that evolution is that defence no longer matters, or possibly never even mattered that much, apparently out of some abstract sense that if a defending player did not visibly guard an opposing player with the ball, then they must have had no real effect in aiding any defensive stops which occurred.

[70sFan]

I never said 1994. When you called out significant success I did not expect it was passing first round. Also the highlighted part, show it or stop lying. Don't run your mouth on behalf of me

"Players with bad D, like Harden/Luka/Westbrook/Jokic/Nash/Trae, can carry a below-average roster to playoffs and even go deep; Players with bad O, like Chandler/Gobert/Ben Wallace/Rodman/Noah/Smart are going nowhere as your best player. "

...and

"I mean I like Mutombo and Thurmond, but they were nice pieces to their teams' success, I would not even call those "significant".

I really don't know how you can conclude anything else after that. Despite the fact that Westbrook didn't had more playoff success as the main guy (or as a second guy), Trae didn't do anything more than Mutombo, Harden and Luka never came out of the 2nd round with below-average roster... You use wrong arguments and wrong examples, but I am the one who "is lying". Just admit you got it wrong and move on.

All of them, including Trae and Luka, have been to conference finals and still playing. LOL you force Mutombo and Thurmond in who were not even in my list. You hand picked two of the best defenders of ALL TIME both to second round. Just admit you got it wrong and move on.

If you include Westbrook here as someone who made CF, then I want to remind you that Mutombo made the finals as arguably the best player on his team. If you start talking about Iverson, then remember who Westbrook played with. Same with Thurmond and Barry.

Wallace was actually the best player on a title team. Rodman has 5 rings. Noah made ECF. Smart made the finals. Keep talking that they had offensive help, almost like Harden and Luka who had a ton of defensive help played with trash teammates because only offense matters. Keep talking that Smart or Rodman weren't the best players of their teams, not unlike Westbrook.

[OhayoKD]

"Players with bad D, like Harden/Luka/Westbrook/Jokic/Nash/Trae, can carry a below-average roster to playoffs and even go deep; Players with bad O, like Chandler/Gobert/Ben Wallace/Rodman/Noah/Smart are going nowhere as your best player. "

...and

"I mean I like Mutombo and Thurmond, but they were nice pieces to their teams' success, I would not even call those "significant".

I really don't know how you can conclude anything else after that. Despite the fact that Westbrook didn't had more playoff success as the main guy (or as a second guy), Trae didn't do anything more than Mutombo, Harden and Luka never came out of the 2nd round with below-average roster... You use wrong arguments and wrong examples, but I am the one who "is lying". Just admit you got it wrong and move on.

All of them, including Trae and Luka, have been to conference finals and still playing. LOL you force Mutombo and Thurmond in who were not even in my list. You hand picked two of the best defenders of ALL TIME both to second round. Just admit you got it wrong and move on.

If you include Westbrook here as someone who made CF, then I want to remind you that Mutombo made the finals as arguably the best player on his team. If you start talking about Iverson, then remember who Westbrook played with. Same with Thurmond and Barry.

Wallace was actually the best player on a title team. Rodman has 5 rings. Noah made ECF. Smart made the finals. Keep talking that they had offensive help, almost like Harden and Luka who had a ton of defensive help played with trash teammates because only offense matters. Keep talking that Smart or Rodman weren't the best players of their teams, not unlike Westbrook.

Ehhh, Westbrook can legitimately claim he was his team's best player in 2016 and at least arguably during 2014 playoffs. And those teams did very very very well even though they didn't win. Smashing the 2016 Spurs is an all-timer.

[70sFan]

All of them, including Trae and Luka, have been to conference finals and still playing. LOL you force Mutombo and Thurmond in who were not even in my list. You hand picked two of the best defenders of ALL TIME both to second round. Just admit you got it wrong and move on.

If you include Westbrook here as someone who made CF, then I want to remind you that Mutombo made the finals as arguably the best player on his team. If you start talking about Iverson, then remember who Westbrook played with. Same with Thurmond and Barry.

Wallace was actually the best player on a title team. Rodman has 5 rings. Noah made ECF. Smart made the finals. Keep talking that they had offensive help, almost like Harden and Luka who had a ton of defensive help played with trash teammates because only offense matters. Keep talking that Smart or Rodman weren't the best players of their teams, not unlike Westbrook.

Ehhh, Westbrook can legitimately claim he was his team's best player in 2016 and at least arguably during 2014 playoffs. And those teams did very very very well even though they didn't win. Smashing the 2016 Spurs is an all-timer.

Mutombo can also legitimatelt claim he was his team's best player in 2001 and Thurmond can as well in 1967, that's my point. Somehow they don't matter because they played with volume scorers who were much worse than Durant, but here it's fine because Westbrook is also an offensive star