Jokic might be the WOAT at defense for superstar big men

[bigboi]

Barkley and Dirk are two names that come to mind, but honestly I think Jokic is the worst tbh. You can blame his teammates all you want but his rim protection is nonexistent. People literally target him like they would a Nash or an Isaiah Thomas but at the center position. If Jokic isn't the worst, who is?

[IdolW0rm]

Barkley and Dirk are two names that come to mind, but honestly I think Jokic is the worst tbh. You can blame his teammates all you want but his rim protection is nonexistent. People literally target him like they would a Nash or an Isaiah Thomas but at the center position. If Jokic isn't the worst, who is?

STAT. Scoring juggernaut, hot trash on defense in more ways than one. Consistent lack of effort for the most part.

[penbeast0]

Amare was the first to come to mind for me as well. Maybe Bob McAdoo as well, though a lot of that was because he was lighter and smaller than most of the guys he played against and probably was best suited to be an NBA PF.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Absolutely Amare

[70sFan]

Not even close to Amar'e.

[Colbinii]

The Bulls have one of the top defenses in the league with Vucevic as Center. I dont consider Vucevic clearly better than Jokic better.

Why are the Bulls a Top defense? Excellent POA defender(s).

[bigboi]

I straight up forgot about STAT lmaooo. Actually he might have it lmaooo

[bigboi]

The Bulls have one of the top defenses in the league with Vucevic as Center. I dont consider Vucevic clearly better than Jokic better.

Why are the Bulls a Top defense? Excellent POA defender(s).

What does this have to do with the question? Jokic isn’t good at defense

[TrueLakerFan]

The Bulls have one of the top defenses in the league with Vucevic as Center. I dont consider Vucevic clearly better than Jokic better.

Why are the Bulls a Top defense? Excellent POA defender(s).

Vucevic isn’t a star though

[Sark]

Stoudemire was a decent rim protector. His weakness was he always got lost on movement.

Watch on YouTube

[MyUniBroDavis]

Playoff defense is the issue with Jokic and other centers that aren’t super mobile or provide in other ways now a days

[Cavsfansince84]

Easy to say about centers given many of the top 10 centers of all time are also top 10 defenders of all time. Looking at the top 30-40 players of all time though there are many that weren't strong defenders. Jokic gets singled out mainly because we are used to great centers having strong impact on that end.

[Jaivl]

Stoudemire was a decent rim protector. His weakness was he always got lost on movement.

Watch on YouTube

7 whole seconds of rim protection!

[penbeast0]

Jokic also reads the floor pretty well, unlike Amare. He doesn't get hung up or lost that often. Think Larry Bird at SF defense v. Barkley at SF defense. We will see when the playoffs get here if NBA defenses have adopted to the idea of hunting the slower players with high PnR action.

This Elgee video that GSP posted today has me wondering how it will play out this year.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2208049&p=104894929#p104894929

[cupcakesnake]

I like Jokic's defense more than Dirk's or Barkley's. It's slightly hard to compare because neither of those guys were the primary rim protector. Chuck played Moses, Mark West, and a random assortment of centers. Dirk played with Tyson Chandler, Shawn Bradley, Raef LaFrentz, Eric Dampier.

I guess Jokic briefly played with Nurk early in their career, but most of his career with small power forwards (Millsap and Aaron Gordon).

[coastalmarker99]

Dame 35/10 on 66 TS%

Mitchell 36/5 on 70 TS%

AD 31/6 on 67 TS%

Lebron 27/10/9 on 60TS%

CP3 26/10 on 74.3 TS%

Poole 21/5 on 71.5 TS%

Curry 28/5 on 64.1 TS%

All against Jokic in the playoffs.

[kendogg]

Jokic also reads the floor pretty well, unlike Amare. He doesn't get hung up or lost that often. Think Larry Bird at SF defense v. Barkley at SF defense. We will see when the playoffs get here if NBA defenses have adopted to the idea of hunting the slower players with high PnR action.

This Elgee video that GSP posted today has me wondering how it will play out this year.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2208049&p=104894929#p104894929

Comparing Jokic's defense (or Barkley's) to Bird is an insult to Bird, who was actually a good defender, especially before his back injury, and while playing his natural position. Jokic has pretty good hands for a center, and he can rebound, but thats where the comparisons end. He might not lose sight of the play but he's also not affecting the play most of the time either, where as Larry actually had great stamina and was very active on defense. Larry was an avid runner to keep his stamina up while Jokic looks like he's never ran 5 miles in his life. I've never seen him sprint down the court. And Larry's hands and reflexes were GOAT tier, far above Jokic. I think Bird is actually tougher than Jokic too. Jokic can bully a bit with his size but he just doesn't have that dog in him like Bird did.

Bird at his natural position (PF) was a good to great defender despite his lack of elite bounce or lateral movement. Bird is closer to Draymond in that regard. Dray isn't a great athlete either though he can move his feet better than Bird could. And Bird is a better rebounder and has better hands than Draymond. Bird was one of the kings of the swipe down. There's a reason Bird got multiple all-defense selections.

The real problem though is that Jokic plays center. If he played forward they could hide him better on defense. You can't be a drop center without being a rim protector. I'm not even sure that an elite rim protecting PF like JJJ would save the Nuggets defense. They'd just end up giving up open 3's all day.

[penbeast0]

Jokic also reads the floor pretty well, unlike Amare. He doesn't get hung up or lost that often. Think Larry Bird at SF defense v. Barkley at SF defense. We will see when the playoffs get here if NBA defenses have adopted to the idea of hunting the slower players with high PnR action.

This Elgee video that GSP posted today has me wondering how it will play out this year.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2208049&p=104894929#p104894929

Comparing Jokic's defense (or Barkley's) to Bird is an insult to Bird, who was actually a good defender, especially before his back injury, and while playing his natural position. Jokic has pretty good hands for a center, and he can rebound, but thats where the comparisons end. He might not lose sight of the play but he's also not affecting the play most of the time either, where as Larry actually had great stamina and was very active on defense. Larry was an avid runner to keep his stamina up while Jokic looks like he's never ran 5 miles in his life. I've never seen him sprint down the court. And Larry's hands and reflexes were GOAT tier, far above Jokic. I think Bird is actually tougher than Jokic too. Jokic can bully a bit with his size but he just doesn't have that dog in him like Bird did.

Bird at his natural position (PF) was a good to great defender despite his lack of elite bounce or lateral movement. Bird is closer to Draymond in that regard. Dray isn't a great athlete either though he can move his feet better than Bird could. And Bird is a better rebounder and has better hands than Draymond. Bird was one of the kings of the swipe down. There's a reason Bird got multiple all-defense selections.

The real problem though is that Jokic plays center. If he played forward they could hide him better on defense. You can't be a drop center without being a rim protector. I'm not even sure that an elite rim protecting PF like JJJ would save the Nuggets defense. They'd just end up giving up open 3's all day.

I agree that Bird, pre-injury and at PF, was a good defender. But most of his career was spent at the 3 where he was the epitome of a guy you could hunt. Still better than Barkley though.

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Watch on YouTube

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[HeartBreakKid]

Stoudemire was a decent rim protector. His weakness was he always got lost on movement.

Watch on YouTube

Wasn't a paint presence at all.

[kendogg]

I agree that Bird, pre-injury and at PF, was a good defender. But most of his career was spent at the 3 where he was the epitome of a guy you could hunt. Still better than Barkley though.

[url]

Watch on YouTube

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Bird was much more impactful as a help defender than on-ball, much like Draymond. But he was not the epitome of a guy you can hunt as he actually gave great effort despite not having the quickest feet, and the Celtics as a whole played great team defense, and were a great defensive team throughout Bird's prime. He may have been hunted somewhat on the Celtics only because it took away his strength as a help defender and his teammates were all great on-ball defenders for the most part. Bird of course always took the weaker assignment and gave McHale the tougher one, but so does Draymond, as it frees him up to impact more as a help defender, where he was quite active. Very few star players in history had a higher motor than Bird.

Adrian Dantley cooked everyone he faced, so saying he cooked Bird as evidence Bird is a weak defender is a pretty terrible argument. Dantley also cooked all of Bird's teammates including McHale and DJ who were fantastic defenders. Dantley was one of the most dominant scorers in league history. Of the top 25 seasons in EFG% with 27+ppg prior to 2016 (before the rules made it too easy on offense), you have:

1. LeBron 2014
2. Barkley 1988
3. Shaq 1994
4. Barkley 1991
5. Shaq 1998
6. Shaq 1995
7. Dantley 1983
8. Shaq 2002
9. Kareem 1971
10. Dantley 1980
11. Shaq 2000
12. Kareem 1972
13. Shaq 2003
14. Shaq 2001
15. Dantley 1982
16. Wilt 1970
17. Karl Malone 1990
18. Dantley 1986
19. Kiki VanDeWeghe 1984
20. Durant 2014
21. Dantley 1981
22. Durant 2013
23. Dantley 1984
24. Bird 1988
25. Bird 1987

That's pretty good company. The most dominant volume scorers of all time in terms of efficiency. Only 2+ season players on this list are Barkley, Shaq, Dantley, Kareem, Durant and Bird.