Highest and lowest reasonable ranking for Ginobili and Draymond?

[LA Bird]

Two high impact players on championship dynasties. How do you rank them on your careers and peaks list?

For reference, Ginobili was #53 and Draymond #98 in the careers list two years ago. 2016 Draymond was #40 in the peaks list.

[AEnigma]

Careers: both roughly in that top sixty range. Manu had a longer career, but Draymond peaked higher and is not too far behind in total minutes played. Manu’s prime ended after 2011 and he never crossed 24 minutes a game in the regular season after that.

Peak: Draymond fringe top 40 for me, although a fair amount of variance at that level. Manu more like top 60. Maybe filtering in the 2004 Olympics can get him to fringe top 50.

[Colbinii]

I see no reason why Draymond can't be as high as Mourning [Though I admit his ranking on the RealGM Top 100 in 2020 @ 64 is a bit high for my taste]. I could see him being as high as Mutombo [58] but currently struggle to see him as high as Manu or McHale [52 and 53 respectfully]. Dwight Howard is another interesting one [I actually think Green holds up better in comparison to Howard than he does Manu or McHale, who is ironically ahead of both at 51].

The arguments for Draymond are an ATG defender for a decade [2014-2023], excellent post-season track-record [The best defender in well over half his seasons], by far the best defender on a defense-first dynasty, extremely portable skill-set [every team has shooters and he is a unicorn in the sense he can be a 1B playmaker as a PF/C] and as mentioned previously ATG defense translates to every team.

You could always bury your head in the sand, act as if Draymond is a product of the Warriors [while I would argue the Warriors are more a product of him than vice-versa] and leave Draymond out of your Top 100. I personally can't look at Ben Wallace and say "Now that guy is a guy who I want more than Draymond while accomplishing more" [Wallace was ranked 81st].

As for Ginobili, he has a tremendous Peak. He has a 13-year stretch [2004-2016] at 97 WS, 5.8 BPM [44.8 VORP] and +11.0 On-Court which doesn't include his excellent rookie season where he was a key contributor to the 2003 Spurs Championship. Extremely resilient post-season performer as well.

I have a hard time justifying putting Manu ahead of Wade [#28] but I could see him in the mix with Ricky Barry and/or Clyde Drexler [#35 and #37 respectively]. As for the lowest, I can't see any arguments for AI, McGrady or Vince [#66, #67 and #69] ahead of him.

I personally don't have a solid list beyond #30 [yet]. I would venture to say both these guys [Green and Manu] are close with Manu ahead. I do look forward to comparing Manu to Frazier, Kidd, Miller, Drexler and Kawhi as I believe all these guys are in a similar tier.

[70sFan]

After top 30, my list becomes way fuzzier than I'd like to. With that being said we can look at the most recent top 100 project.

Let's start with Manu. I don't think Manu has a reasonable case to be ranked inside top 40. The botton of top 40 is filled with guys like Kidd, Gervin, Drexler, Miller, Gilmore, Schayes - this is cleary a step ahead of Manu career-wise to me. I guess I can see him in the next tier with guys like Reed, Westbrook, Gasol - so around 45th is probably the highest I can see him. For the lowest, I think he's a lock top 75 player.

Green is a bit fuzzier, because he's still active. I don't think you can rank him much higher than Thurmond or Mourning, but these were underrated on top 100 list in my opinion. I think he can reach top 55-60 quite clearly, though top 40 is again out of reach to me. The lower end evaluation is probably like top 80, but anything below that is probably too low.

[penbeast0]

Golden State was a defense first dynasty? Taking their peak years from 2015 to 2019, they ranked 2nd, 1st, 1st. 3rd. and 1st offensively and 1st, 5th, 2nd, 5th, and 15th defensively. They were an offensive dynasty with great to good defense.

[AEnigma]

Golden State was a defense first dynasty? Taking their peak years from 2015 to 2019, they ranked 2nd, 1st, 1st. 3rd. and 1st offensively and 1st, 5th, 2nd, 5th, and 15th defensively. They were an offensive dynasty with great to good defense.

They tended to stand out more for their defence in the postseason.

[eminence]

Golden State was a defense first dynasty? Taking their peak years from 2015 to 2019, they ranked 2nd, 1st, 1st. 3rd. and 1st offensively and 1st, 5th, 2nd, 5th, and 15th defensively. They were an offensive dynasty with great to good defense.

They tended to stand out more for their defence in the postseason.

I'm not sure how this came to stick on the board, but I see it a lot?

The Warriors average a +7.2 PO offense across series (average per series, not game) in the Kerr era and a -4.6 Defense. The offense has outperformed the defense relative to RS expectations in 14 of 24 series over the period.

I don't really see much if any evidence for them being a defense slanted team even in the playoffs.

[Doctor MJ]

Two high impact players on championship dynasties. How do you rank them on your careers and peaks list?

For reference, Ginobili was #53 and Draymond #98 in the careers list two years ago. 2016 Draymond was #40 in the peaks list.

To your specific question, it's hard for me to think in these terms. I tend to focus more on my own rankings than what is reasonable for others, and I don't tend to think in terms of specific ranking numbers.

I consider myself higher than most on both players, but I know I'm particularly outside the norm on Ginobili.

For both of them, I think the guy to think about is Scottie Pippen. He's generally been a guy in the 20s for a good while, and these two guys are in some ways analogous to him as being the #2 guy on a team that wins several chips. Neither of these two guys has ever been in consideration anywhere near the level of Pippen, but I don't know if that many-tier gap is really justified.

To zoom in just on the players from drafts 1999 (Ginobili) to 2012 (Draymond), guys I'd expect to have ahead of them both:

LeBron
Wade
Paul
Durant
Curry

Guys who I'll have to think about more:

Harden
Kawhi

I think I'd put them ahead of everyone else, which includes Westbrook, AD & Lillard among others.

Between Ginobili & Draymond I should be clear that at this point I'd side with Ginobili.

[eminence]

Two high impact players on championship dynasties. How do you rank them on your careers and peaks list?

For reference, Ginobili was #53 and Draymond #98 in the careers list two years ago. 2016 Draymond was #40 in the peaks list.

To your specific question, it's hard for me to think in these terms. I tend to focus more on my own rankings than what is reasonable for others, and I don't tend to think in terms of specific ranking numbers.

I consider myself higher than most on both players, but I know I'm particularly outside the norm on Ginobili.

For both of them, I think the guy to think about is Scottie Pippen. He's generally been a guy in the 20s for a good while, and these two guys are in some ways analogous to him as being the #2 guy on a team that wins several chips. Neither of these two guys has ever been in consideration anywhere near the level of Pippen, but I don't know if that many-tier gap is really justified.

To zoom in just on the players from drafts 1999 (Ginobili) to 2012 (Draymond), guys I'd expect to have ahead of them both:

LeBron
Wade
Paul
Durant
Curry

Guys who I'll have to think about more:

Harden
Kawhi

I think I'd put them ahead of everyone else, which includes Westbrook, AD & Lillard among others.

Between Ginobili & Draymond I should be clear that at this point I'd side with Ginobili.

Thinking of them along those Pippen lines makes sense. I'd probably include Gasol from the same era as a similar historical case (more time on his own). And would clearly side with Harden and put a few more into the thinking category, but for recentish guys this seems about right to me.

[70sFan]

For both of them, I think the guy to think about is Scottie Pippen. He's generally been a guy in the 20s for a good while, and these two guys are in some ways analogous to him as being the #2 guy on a team that wins several chips. Neither of these two guys has ever been in consideration anywhere near the level of Pippen, but I don't know if that many-tier gap is really justified.

Maybe it's time to admit that Pippen isn't top 30 guy

[70sFan]

Golden State was a defense first dynasty? Taking their peak years from 2015 to 2019, they ranked 2nd, 1st, 1st. 3rd. and 1st offensively and 1st, 5th, 2nd, 5th, and 15th defensively. They were an offensive dynasty with great to good defense.

They tended to stand out more for their defence in the postseason.

I'm not sure how this came to stick on the board, but I see it a lot?

The Warriors average a +7.2 PO offense across series (average per series, not game) in the Kerr era and a -4.6 Defense. The offense has outperformed the defense relative to RS expectations in 14 of 24 series over the period.

I don't really see much if any evidence for them being a defense slanted team even in the playoffs.

If we look at the numbers per thinkingbasketball.net:

2015 Warriors: +4.1 rORtg, -7.5 rDRtg
2016 Warriors: +4.2 rORtg, -4.5 rDRtg
2017 Warriors: +11.4 rORtg, -5.8 rDRtg
2018 Warriors: +6.5 rORtg, -7.9 rDRtg
2019 Warriors: +5.4 rORtg, -2.0 rDRtg
2022 Warriors: +6.0 rORtg, -4.2 rDRtg

Overall relative ratings (calculated per game): +6.0 rORtg, -5.2 DRtg

The offense was better than defense in 3 runs and the same vice versa. To me it looks like this team was all-around dominant, not slanted in either direction.

For what it's worth, if we take title runs only:

+6.8 rORtg, -6.4 rDRtg

Same thing, no clear trend.

[eminence]

If we look at the numbers per thinkingbasketball.net:

2015 Warriors: +4.1 rORtg, -7.5 rDRtg
2016 Warriors: +4.2 rORtg, -4.5 rDRtg
2017 Warriors: +11.4 rORtg, -5.8 rDRtg
2018 Warriors: +6.5 rORtg, -7.9 rDRtg
2019 Warriors: +5.4 rORtg, -2.0 rDRtg
2022 Warriors: +6.0 rORtg, -4.2 rDRtg

Overall relative ratings (calculated per game): +6.0 rORtg, -5.2 DRtg

The offense was better than defense in 3 runs and the same vice versa. To me it looks like this team was all-around dominant, not slanted in either direction.

For what it's worth, if we take title runs only:

+6.8 rORtg, -6.4 rDRtg

Same thing, no clear trend.

I always like little calculation method quirks, here's results by year with the series average method:

'15: +5.4/-6.1
'16: +5.0/-4.2
'17: +11.7/-5.9
'18: +7.6/-6.7
'19: +6.1/-1.7
'22: +7.6/-2.8

[70sFan]

If we look at the numbers per thinkingbasketball.net:

2015 Warriors: +4.1 rORtg, -7.5 rDRtg
2016 Warriors: +4.2 rORtg, -4.5 rDRtg
2017 Warriors: +11.4 rORtg, -5.8 rDRtg
2018 Warriors: +6.5 rORtg, -7.9 rDRtg
2019 Warriors: +5.4 rORtg, -2.0 rDRtg
2022 Warriors: +6.0 rORtg, -4.2 rDRtg

Overall relative ratings (calculated per game): +6.0 rORtg, -5.2 DRtg

The offense was better than defense in 3 runs and the same vice versa. To me it looks like this team was all-around dominant, not slanted in either direction.

For what it's worth, if we take title runs only:

+6.8 rORtg, -6.4 rDRtg

Same thing, no clear trend.

I always like little calculation method quirks, here's results by year with the series average method:

'15: +5.4/-6.1
'16: +5.0/-4.2
'17: +11.7/-5.9
'18: +7.6/-6.7
'19: +6.1/-1.7
'22: +7.6/-2.8

Yeah, not a drastic difference either way.

[trex_8063]

For both of them, I think the guy to think about is Scottie Pippen. He's generally been a guy in the 20s for a good while, and these two guys are in some ways analogous to him as being the #2 guy on a team that wins several chips. Neither of these two guys has ever been in consideration anywhere near the level of Pippen, but I don't know if that many-tier gap is really justified.

Maybe it's time to admit that Pippen isn't top 30 guy

Personally, I see Pippen as a better player than Draymond (who has had more substantial meaningful longevity to date, as well).

Pippen, on offense [as I see it], is a similar-tiered passer/playmaker as Draymond, but while also being capable of dropping ~22ppg on reasonable efficiency [even if a focus of the defense] when required........whereas outside of a couple of seasons Draymond would seem to struggle to come up with 10-12ppg on decent efficiency even when the defense is practically ignoring him.

I consequently think this makes Pippen much more valuable as a floor raiser (while I don't think anyone would impune his capacity to be a "Robin" on a title team). Basically, there's an entirely added layer to his offensive game which Draymond lacks [almost completely].

Is his defensive imprint as big as Draymond's? On average, likely not. But Pippen has a case as the greatest defensive SF ever, and as such I don't think his deficit to Draymond on defense is as large as the offensive advantage he carries over Dray.
EDIT: Not to mention the minute advantage is pretty huge, even if we assume Draymond is as good or slightly more impactful on a per-minute basis. Pippen averaged 34.9 mpg over a 17-year career (he averaged 38.0 mpg in the entire DECADE of the 90s); Dray's single-season HIGH is 34.7 mpg (28.7 mpg for his career). I realize minutes were higher then, but even calibrating for the era-difference, this aspect is not overly close.

And again, his overall meaningful longevity is also superior [at least thus far].


This isn't to say Pippen is necessarily a top 30 player (though for me he's at least still on/near the border). If he has fallen out [which I think he may have by this point, even for me], it's more because guys like Giannis, Harden, and Jokic have happened......not because of a major shift on how I view him.

[Colbinii]

For both of them, I think the guy to think about is Scottie Pippen. He's generally been a guy in the 20s for a good while, and these two guys are in some ways analogous to him as being the #2 guy on a team that wins several chips. Neither of these two guys has ever been in consideration anywhere near the level of Pippen, but I don't know if that many-tier gap is really justified.

Maybe it's time to admit that Pippen isn't top 30 guy

To piggy back on this--I dont see "many tiers" between Pippen and Manu/Green as players [speaking of their caliber as players]. In fact, I think Manu and Pippen are in the same tier [~30-50].

Green probably in a tier down.

[Doctor MJ]

Two high impact players on championship dynasties. How do you rank them on your careers and peaks list?

For reference, Ginobili was #53 and Draymond #98 in the careers list two years ago. 2016 Draymond was #40 in the peaks list.

To your specific question, it's hard for me to think in these terms. I tend to focus more on my own rankings than what is reasonable for others, and I don't tend to think in terms of specific ranking numbers.

I consider myself higher than most on both players, but I know I'm particularly outside the norm on Ginobili.

For both of them, I think the guy to think about is Scottie Pippen. He's generally been a guy in the 20s for a good while, and these two guys are in some ways analogous to him as being the #2 guy on a team that wins several chips. Neither of these two guys has ever been in consideration anywhere near the level of Pippen, but I don't know if that many-tier gap is really justified.

To zoom in just on the players from drafts 1999 (Ginobili) to 2012 (Draymond), guys I'd expect to have ahead of them both:

LeBron
Wade
Paul
Durant
Curry

Guys who I'll have to think about more:

Harden
Kawhi

I think I'd put them ahead of everyone else, which includes Westbrook, AD & Lillard among others.

Between Ginobili & Draymond I should be clear that at this point I'd side with Ginobili.

Thinking of them along those Pippen lines makes sense. I'd probably include Gasol from the same era as a similar historical case (more time on his own). And would clearly side with Harden and put a few more into the thinking category, but for recentish guys this seems about right to me.

Gasol is a worth mention definitely.

[Doctor MJ]

For both of them, I think the guy to think about is Scottie Pippen. He's generally been a guy in the 20s for a good while, and these two guys are in some ways analogous to him as being the #2 guy on a team that wins several chips. Neither of these two guys has ever been in consideration anywhere near the level of Pippen, but I don't know if that many-tier gap is really justified.

Maybe it's time to admit that Pippen isn't top 30 guy

Well, I don't have a strong opinion on whether he is Top X or not. I think the more important thing is recognizing that it's tough to rank alphas against betas when the beta seems like the better fit on an actual champion.

[jazzfan1971]

I am higher on Manu than most, but not quite as high as you guys.

I thought he belonged on the top 75 list the NBA did. Who would I remove to put him there? Carmelo. I'm lower on him than most.

[Colbinii]

I am higher on Manu than most, but not quite as high as you guys.

I thought he belonged on the top 75 list the NBA did. Who would I remove to put him there? Carmelo. I'm lower on him than most.

Carmelo was the Earl Monroe of the most recent 25 additions to the NBA 75 list.

[IdolW0rm]

Tricky to define what's reasonable and what's not. It isn't really reasonable to define it in the first place.
If you're really really high on peak, defensive impact, versatility and RAPM, then you can have Draymond as high as Top 20, I guess.
Similarly, if you're really really high on per minute value, offensive lift on championship winning teams and also RAPM, you could have Manu above a lot of accomplished ATG's.
Given, those would be really extreme views on how to rank players...