Was Jordan's supporting cast in 1997-98 weak?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Curry was playing injured in the 2016 finals. Iguodala was also plying injured in the 2016 finals and Bogut was injured. I think the mid season 2016 Warriors would have beaten the 2016 finals Cavs in 5 games because Curry Iguodala and Bogut were healthy and playing very well at midseason. Cavs did not beat the 73 win Warriors, they beat the ghost of the 73 win Warriors.

In game 7 both teams looked like they were trying to lose except Draymond.
I liked that Suns team the Bulls beat. Pistons and Jazz were not chopped liver. Neither the Bulls nor their opponents could shoot 3s decently by modern standards. I am not sure that any of the LeBron teams could beat the Jazz without either team having the 3 point shot. LeBron surrounded by 3 point shooters was the winning formula.

The issue I have with that comment is that the ghost of the 2015 Cavs took the 67 win Warriors to 6 games. So did the Warriors really improve so much in one year that they'd wax a healthy Cavs team even though by srs and Net Rtg they were nearly identical to the previous year? I doubt it. You just always see everything relating to LeBron and his teams through these insanely biased glasses imo. It's also worth noting that hardly any team is fully healthy by the time the finals roll around. Those teams have played 100+ games usually and increased minutes throughout the playoffs. LeBron in 2016 was playing in his 6th straight finals. So its always a battle with attrition by the time teams play each other in the finals. Steph doesn't have the type of body that lends itself to 100 games and still being at 95% health which is part of nba basketball.

2015 Warriors had a different problem; they were very young and inexperienced for a champion. Only the 1977 Blazers champions were younger than the 2015 Warriors. Delavadova would nor have confused a more experienced Warriors team.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

People expected Bosh and Love and to a lesser degree Wade to play better than they did when the joined LeBron.

The super-team phrase might have been created for LeBron Wade Bosh but Bosh was not super with LeBron. Bosh had been almost super for the Raptors before he joined LeBron.

[Blackmill]

[LeBron] choked away the Finals in Game 6 with several last minute crucial turnovers and bricks from the 3-point line, only to be bailed out by Kawhi and Manu's missed FT's and clutch rebounding by Bosh, and ultimately one of the greatest bailout 3's in NBA history by Ray Allen.

I think this is a false narrative, that over focuses on just a few possessions, with no context for how the Heat and Spurs were playing each other.

During the first six minutes of the fourth, LeBron drags the Heat back into the game with his individual shot creation. At that point, the Spurs start loading up on LeBron, and there's no longer opportunities for him to generate a decent shot for himself. Naturally, the shot making needs to come from LeBron's teammates. But when LeBron was facing the extra defenders, there was no weak side movement, even though one screen could have reasonably got Ray Allen an open three. Although you say that LeBron was bailed out by his teammates stepping up and the Spurs making mistakes, it's arguably more accurate to say that the Spurs' defense was bailed out by LeBron's teammates not moving without the ball. Realistically, the Spurs' late 4Q strategy on LeBron was zero-sum, but it was successful because the Heat were so stationary.

Fast forward, Spo calls a timeout, and we actually start to see some indications of weak side movement. This is where the two bad plays happen. You have the turnover first, but it's a really inexplicable possession by the Heat. Ray Allen was clearly making a move into LeBron's passing angle, while Wade was moving towards Ginobili like he was going to set a screen, but Wade doesn't make any contact. It almost looks like Wade doesn't even try, although it seems clear that there was meant to be a screen. Now the possession is broken, no one is open, and LeBron basically has three defenders on him as he turns the ball over. Next possession, LeBron posts up, and Ray Allen runs baseline towards the strong side. But Allen trips and lands flat on his belly, the play is now broken, and for the second time, LeBron is trying to take a shot over multiple defenders.

It's fair to criticize LeBron for not doing a better job at salvaging those broken possessions, and I do think Jordan has an easier time at making something out of nothing, but the idea that LeBron choked in the fourth is plainly false. He was exceptional for much of the fourth, and when he was slowed down by the Spurs loading up on him, he was still giving his team a great chance to score, the Heat just failed to execute at a team level. Aside from asking LeBron to hit the rim on those two broken plays, that way the Heat had a chance for the rebound, I don't think he could have done much more.

[TheLand13]

Even 2011 Shaq with the Celtics was not useless.
But I am talking about losing the 2010 version of those players that won 60+ games with LeBron. I think they could have won 40 games without LeBron if they were as healthy as in 2010.

Supposing over the hill Shaq and Big Z played like in 2010 but Verajao got injured; don’t the 2010 versions of Shaq and big Z play ahead of 2011 Hickson and Ryan Hollins? Hickson did not make a good impression on me. Am I underestimating Hickson?

Lmao no, neither of them did. The fact that you're even asking me this further demonstrates your ignorance in regards to those teams and why you shouldn't be talking about them.

If you didn't watch them at the time, and you aren't willing to put in the effort to actually research those teams, then don't talk about them. You're just making yourself look worse with each post.

I watched back then but I saw more of 2009 Cavs than 2010 Cavs. In 2010 I don’t think I saw any of the Celtics Cavs series. I remember 2011 Celtics Shaq but don’t have an image of Cavs Shaq. But I liked 2009 Big Z.

I did not like Hickson in 2011 but I probably only saw 2011 in 2 games vs the Warriors. Too small of a sample size. How good was Hickson when he had to play center?

I probabablt watched Samardo Samuels be a minus 25 in 30 minutes vs the Warriors but I have no memory of Samardo Samuels.

I honestly don't believe you watched any of the Cavaliers games at the time. But I'll humor you.

Hickson was pretty trash when forced to play at center. He lacked the size and skills needed to really be an effective player. He was always, at best, a role playing athletic big, and that's it. Playing alongside LeBron really elevated his game because when you're running mate at the forward spot is one of the greatest athletes the sport has ever seen and he's also really, really good at basketball... yeah, that's going to give you some advantages. But without him he was practically a lost puppy out there.

2009 Big Z was practically a walking corpse. I really don't understand what you liked about him that year and it once again makes me question you watching that season. He offered two advantages though that should be pointed out. For one thing, he was still a skilled big man, and when you have his size and length, you are able to find a way to still at least be effective as a player. It wasn't on a level that was notable, but he could at least still contribute to an extent. And secondly, he could stretch the floor out. This was a god send for LeBron. But all in all, Big Z by 2009 should not have been a starting center in the league. And it blows my mind that this was still the case by 2011 when he went to Miami.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Lmao no, neither of them did. The fact that you're even asking me this further demonstrates your ignorance in regards to those teams and why you shouldn't be talking about them.

If you didn't watch them at the time, and you aren't willing to put in the effort to actually research those teams, then don't talk about them. You're just making yourself look worse with each post.

I watched back then but I saw more of 2009 Cavs than 2010 Cavs. In 2010 I don’t think I saw any of the Celtics Cavs series. I remember 2011 Celtics Shaq but don’t have an image of Cavs Shaq. But I liked 2009 Big Z.

I did not like Hickson in 2011 but I probably only saw 2011 in 2 games vs the Warriors. Too small of a sample size. How good was Hickson when he had to play center?

I probabably watched Samardo Samuels be a minus 25 in 30 minutes vs the Warriors but I have no memory of Samardo Samuels.

I honestly don't believe you watched any of the Cavaliers games at the time. But I'll humor you.

Hickson was pretty trash when forced to play at center. He lacked the size and skills needed to really be an effective player. He was always, at best, a role playing athletic big, and that's it. Playing alongside LeBron really elevated his game because when you're running mate at the forward spot is one of the greatest athletes the sport has ever seen and he's also really, really good at basketball... yeah, that's going to give you some advantages. But without him he was practically a lost puppy out there.

2009 Big Z was practically a walking corpse. I really don't understand what you liked about him that year and it once again makes me question you watching that season. He offered two advantages though that should be pointed out. For one thing, he was still a skilled big man, and when you have his size and length, you are able to find a way to still at least be effective as a player. It wasn't on a level that was notable, but he could at least still contribute to an extent. And secondly, he could stretch the floor out. This was a god send for LeBron. But all in all, Big Z by 2009 should not have been a starting center in the league. And it blows my mind that this was still the case by 2011 when he went to Miami.

Warriors are my home team. Celtics are my former home team and I rend to follow them. I did not watch most mots regular season games or 1St round playoff games unless they involved the Warriors or Celtics. I have been half or more of Warriors or Celtics games since 1979 (the year before rookie Bird) except for when I was out of the country. I tended to return from India when India got hot in mid April. About 5 scattered years I was in In India with no NBA in March.

Before 1979 I was ignoring NBA but following Hockey closely.

I watched every Celtics vs Magic game and yet I only saw one at most one Celtics Cavaliers game in the 2010 playoffs which means I probably was returning from India during the Cavaliers Celtics playoffs. I would have found the Cavaliers and LeBron interesting so It is unlikely that I would have missed Celtics vs Cavaliers if I was in the USA. I have seen Parker and Moon playing with LeBron but I have remember Donyel Marshal and Larry Hughs playing with LeBron more. I suspect I was not in the USA for winter 2010 but was in the USA for winter of 2008 and 2009. Maybe Marshal and Hughes meant more to me because they are former Warriors.

Warriors were weak at center for Big Z’s whole career. Big Z hurt the Warriors and I was jealous of teams that had a center as good or better than big Z. I can’t necessarily keep clear the difference between 2007 Big Z and 2009 Big Z. I remember the difference between somewhat immobile but still good Big Z and old and immobile to the point of being a defensive liability Big Z but I can’t keep straight how immobile big Z was in which years. My assumption is that my problems of keeping different versions of the same player separated in my mind for players that are not on my home team is normal. But the 2009 Cavs were the most memorable Cavs team of that era for me and I am pretty sure big Z was still good. I think walking corpse to the point of not being a better than average starting center came later. I prefer who I think 2009 Big Z was to any version of Longly. Big Z did not hurt the Warriors with stretch shooting because he was to busy hurting the Warriors inside with inside scoring and the strength to take inside position against the Warriors centers.

More than any other position there was a drop off from good starting centers to bad starting centers. Warriors rarely had the advantage at center but I felt like the Warriors had the advantage vs Hickson at center. I felt like Ronny Turiaf a power forward playing out of position at center was clearly an advantage over inexperienced Hickson a power forward in my eyes playing out of position at center. I also saw nothing wrong with rookie Hickson playing with LeBron and one of Big Z or Verajao at center but the with the centers and LeBron gone Hickson looked very bad to me; even worse than the Warriors centers.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

2007 and 2008 the Cavaliers have a very bad offense as measured by FG percentage despite having LeBron. Hughs not being able to shoot hurt.

Williams being able to run an offense helped in 2009.

On the 2009 team I would like to add best of current Curry to Williams, best of current Draymond to Verajao and best of current Klay to Sasha P. I think the result would be a champioship. How do you integrate Draymond point forward with LeBron point forward?

[TheLand13]

2007 and 2008 the Cavaliers have a very bad offense as measured by FG percentage despite having LeBron. Hughs not being able to shoot hurt.

Williams being able to run an offense helped in 2009.

On the 2009 team I would like to add best of current Curry to Williams, best of current Draymond to Verajao and best of current Klay to Sasha P. I think the result would be a champioship. How do you integrate Draymond point forward with LeBron point forward?

Again, more evidence that you didn't watch the Cavaliers at the time.

Mo barely ran the offense whenever James played. That wasn't what made the duo work. What worked was that James finally had someone who could put up good scoring numbers on very good efficiency. People don't realize how badly James needed someone like that.

And jesus with that last part. If you add all of that? Forget about it. It's a literal dynasty in the making. Just adding the best of Curry to Williams alone is a cheat code.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

2007 and 2008 the Cavaliers have a very bad offense as measured by FG percentage despite having LeBron. Hughs not being able to shoot hurt.

Williams being able to run an offense helped in 2009.

On the 2009 team I would like to add best of current Curry to Williams, best of current Draymond to Verajao and best of current Klay to Sasha P. I think the result would be a champioship. How do you integrate Draymond point forward with LeBron point forward?

Again, more evidence that you didn't watch the Cavaliers at the time.

Mo barely ran the offense whenever James played. That wasn't what made the duo work. What worked was that James finally had someone who could put up good scoring numbers on very good efficiency. People don't realize how badly James needed someone like that.

And jesus with that last part. If you add all of that? Forget about it. It's a literal dynasty in the making. Just adding the best of Curry to Williams alone is a cheat code.

Curry Klay and Draymond are a set. I can’t break up the set.

[jc23]

Fatigue plays a factor and 3 peats are not common for a reason. If you look at the history of the game the 2nd and 3rd consecutive championships have always been progressively more difficult. On paper the team looks solid but they were past their expiration date.

Which is why i dont buy the Bulls running it back the next year and winning it all. For that to happen they would have needed to replace Dennis for another high level 4 and probably a few other moves as well. MJ should have made a deal with Phil to go to the Lakers that summer and get a couple quick rings if he still wanted to play and wouldnt for another coach.