Pippen's first two seasons are very underrated as he was a star from the beginning

[coastalmarker99]

It is a common myth on this forum and others that MJ “made” Pippen and that Pippen wasn’t a star at the start of his career

they mainly reference his 7.9 PPG average in 88 to jam home this point

But let’s walk a timeline.

Pippen held out his 1st year, and so, as a result, he played his first preseason game only two days after joining Bulls camp.

In his 1st 2 preseason games, he scored 17 twice and dominated the 2nd game, with 7 RB, 5 ast and 4 steals and all In 23-25 min.

This is a key point.

Pippen arrived on a Thursday after missing 10 practices.

On Saturday and Sunday, he played 2 games and scored 17 in each and in In low minutes.

Not 7.9

He hadn’t even seen an NBA game yet and He played in the 1st one he saw.

That preseason, teammates were raving.

His coach said he was clutch.

Scouts were calling him a star.

He was considered Hall of Fame material by Rick Barry, then an NBA TV analyst.

This guy seems legit, no?



Even though he outplayed Sellers, Pippen still didn’t start Collins didn’t start rookies.

His first 4 games, 3 weeks after joining camp:

Game 1: 23 min, 10 pts, 1 RB, 4 ast, 2 steals
Gm 2: 24 min, 11/8/4/0
Gm 3: 23 min, 8/3/5/3. Led team in assists
Gm 4: 29 min, 15/3/2/3

4-0.


If you prorate his first week to his career minutes per game (36 min, per-36):

Points: 16.0 (90% of NBA SF avg per-36 pts in 80s)
Rebounds: 5.5 (90%)
Assists: 5.5 (174%)
Steals: 3.0 (230%)

Lower points, but shooting 54% and game 4 was 103%.

Normal run rate Pippen just no MP.


This continued the full month of November.

The Bulls opened 12-3.

In a 38 min game in Boston, Pippen was 20/1/7 with 6 steals.

He even made a last shot vs GSW.

His progress was so astounding he got a full feature article (several pages) in Sports Illustrated in November.


Over his first month, Pippen’s per-36 matched his career averages, outside of assists.

FG%, points, shot attempts, steals, blocks, offensive rebounds…all at or above his career averages.

This was the same guy just not getting minutes yet.

No “development” needed.


Then Pippen got hurt.

A thumb injury, and then the bigger back injury.

Pippen played through, because the Bulls misdiagnosed the back injury.

He got surgery in the offseason, and had to find pain relief along the way.



Pippen covered this in his book.

he only looked like he was a bum because he was hurt and played.


Even with all this, Pippen helped a lot in 1988.

He and Grant were considered the “main difference” in 88.

Pippen was named Player of the Game in the Winner Take All game 5 versus the Cavs, his 1st start.

In MJ’s first playoff series win, Pippen got the headlines.

As a rookie.


In 1989, the Bulls brought him back slowly. He didn’t start until 12/27 and only played 3 30 minute games prior to 12/31.

So…his chances of being an All Star in year 1 and year 2 were blown by injury.

In year 3, he made it. Same timing as Stockton, Malone, Drexler, Miller.



If you take just the games Pippen played 30+ minutes in his career, his 1st and 2nd-year activity nearly replicates the rest of his career.

When he was healthy enough to play 30 min in his first 2 years (and not benched with “nagging” injuries)…he was nearly the same guy.

So therefore Pippen was an elite player from the 1st moment he stepped on an NBA court.

As he was playing really well at the outset and his stats were only impacted by injuries.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Pippen did not enter the leage a completed player. He refined his game and toughened up. Bad boy Pistons could intimidate young Pippen.

Pippen came to the NBA with great athleticism but he still had to learn techniques on both offense and defense.

[coastalmarker99]

Pippen did not enter the leage a completed player. He refined his game and toughened up. Bad boy Pistons could intimidate young Pippen.

Pippen came to the NBA with great athleticism but he still had to learn techniques on both offense and defense.

People Lie but Stats don't lie


As over his first month, Pippen’s per-36 matched his career averages, outside of assists.

FG%, points, shot attempts, steals, blocks, offensive rebounds…all at or above his career averages.

There was no “development” needed outside of toughing up.

And even if he hadn't toughed up.

The Pistons were on their last legs in 1991 and were clearly weaker then the Bulls.


As the 1991 Pistons were old

They won 50 games with a 3+ SRS. 12th in ORtg. Last in steals. 19th in TS%. 20th in SOS.

Nine of 12 players over 30, including the entire bench.

Their 9 man rotation fell to 8 with expansion, and they wore down with injuries to IT and others

Their pace had slowed to a crawl and they were the Slowest in the NBA.

They looked old.

Only 3 players had trade value.

[jc23]

It was a mutual pairing. both helped each other.

Pippen would have been great no matter the team but i do feel he could only ever be a #2. He had some very public examples of that when MJ wasnt there to be batman.

[IdolW0rm]

Pippen did not enter the leage a completed player. He refined his game and toughened up. Bad boy Pistons could intimidate young Pippen.

Pippen came to the NBA with great athleticism but he still had to learn techniques on both offense and defense.

People Lie but Stats don't lie


As over his first month, Pippen’s per-36 matched his career averages, outside of assists.

FG%, points, shot attempts, steals, blocks, offensive rebounds…all at or above his career averages.

There was no “development” needed outside of toughing up.

And even if he hadn't toughed up. The Pistons were on their last legs in 1991 and were clearly weaker then the Bulls.



As the 1991 Pistons were old

Nine of 12 players over 30, including the entire bench.

Their 9 man rotation fell to 8 with expansion, and they wore down.

Their pace had slowed to a crawl and they were the Slowest in the NBA.

They looked old.

Only 3 players had trade value.

Yeah, you can't really extrapolate per36 numbers like that. Big part of the reason why the stat is trash is because of people using it that way.
Extrapolating 20min production to 36min production is insane.

Pippen really wasn't a star and was actually pretty damn bad in periods until we reached the 90's. Especially his offense took some time to really gain star shape.
I mean, he averaged 13p / 2a in the only three consecutive 30+min games he played in the Playoffs in 88, and 14p / 4a on 54%TS on 39min per game in the Playoffs in 1989. Not exactly what you'd call star stuff.

On top of that, the +/- data we have on the 1988 season (Squared2020 RAPM) paints Pippen as a negative (-0.36) on the 43 games currently sampled. Jordan as as +7.47.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Pippen did not enter the leage a completed player. He refined his game and toughened up. Bad boy Pistons could intimidate young Pippen.

Pippen came to the NBA with great athleticism but he still had to learn techniques on both offense and defense.

People Lie but Stats don't lie


As over his first month, Pippen’s per-36 matched his career averages, outside of assists.

FG%, points, shot attempts, steals, blocks, offensive rebounds…all at or above his career averages.

There was no “development” needed outside of toughing up.

And even if he hadn't toughed up.

The Pistons were on their last legs in 1991 and were clearly weaker then the Bulls.


As the 1991 Pistons were old

They won 50 games with a 3+ SRS. 12th in ORtg. Last in steals. 19th in TS%. 20th in SOS.

Nine of 12 players over 30, including the entire bench.

Their 9 man rotation fell to 8 with expansion, and they wore down with injuries to IT and others

Their pace had slowed to a crawl and they were the Slowest in the NBA.

They looked old.

Only 3 players had trade value.

Never mind that we all thought we saw improvement in Pippen.
Per 36 minute stats also show accross the board improvent for Pippen his first 4 years.
True shooting percentage also steadily and significantly improves his first 4 years.
He was almost a completed player in year 4.
In some ways Pippen peaked in year 4 but in other ways he continued to improve.

[penbeast0]

And, being on the court consistently is part of being a good player. You can be amazing like Bill Walton with the Clippers, and yet not be a positive force for your team because you just can't stay healthy. So, Scottie's minutes do matter. What you can say about his first two seasons is that he showed the promise of the player he would become.

[magicman1978]

Definitely not a star his first year - by any definition or measure of a star. He definitely showed potential though and improved significantly each year over the next 4 years.

BPM is not the best measure if whether a player is a star, but I think it's a good screening criteria. for BPM a 6.0 = All-NBA, 4.0 = All-star consideration, 2.0 = good starter, and 0.0 = decent starter.

Pippen's rookie year was a -0.6 which puts him below decent starter. 2nd year was 0.4 which is above decent starter. 3rd year was 1.8 which is just below good starter, and 4th year was 5.8 which is All-NBA level. He remained All-NBA level from 91 through 98 with a dip in 93.

[Texas Chuck]

Mike definitely did not make Pippen. That's gross.

But Pip wasn't a star from day one either.

Both can be, and are, true.

[trex_8063]

Pippen did not enter the leage a completed player. He refined his game and toughened up. Bad boy Pistons could intimidate young Pippen.

Pippen came to the NBA with great athleticism but he still had to learn techniques on both offense and defense.

People Lie but Stats don't lie


As over his first month, Pippen’s per-36 matched his career averages, outside of assists.

FG%, points, shot attempts, steals, blocks, offensive rebounds…all at or above his career averages.

Steals per 36 are higher in this span (2.5 vs 2.0), blocks are basically the same (about 0.8 for both); offensive rebounds are marginally higher, but total rebounds per 36 are lower. Turnovers per 36 are 0.1 better vs his career avg, too, fwiw.

However, points per 36 in his first month are NOT quite at [or above] his career avg (16.0 vs 16.6).

His 1st-month FG% is marginally above his career (47.9% vs 47.3%)........though he's still sub-60% at the FT-line, barely takes 3's [and doesn't make them when he does]. Consequently, his TS% in this span is more than 3% below his career avg (in relative TS%, the gap is more like 4+%). I'm fairly sure you well know that FG% is a poor measure of shooting efficiency.

He's also committing about 1.0 additional fouls per 36 in this first month.


Even if calling all other things more or less a wash, the gap in shooting efficiency and the one additional foul committed puts even his first month a noticeable step below his career averages.

Additionally [fwiw], I can't decide if it isn't being a pinch semantically disingenuous to refer to Pippen's CAREER per 36 figures as a benchmark for "star", given those career figures include all the injury-hampered early games you refer to, PLUS several years of post-prime play. Probably is....

[TheGOATRises007]

I swear I saw this exact thread on the GB

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Pippen did not enter the leage a completed player. He refined his game and toughened up. Bad boy Pistons could intimidate young Pippen.

Pippen came to the NBA with great athleticism but he still had to learn techniques on both offense and defense.

People Lie but Stats don't lie


As over his first month, Pippen’s per-36 matched his career averages, outside of assists.

FG%, points, shot attempts, steals, blocks, offensive rebounds…all at or above his career averages.

But why first month instead of first sean? NBA defense has flaws 1st month and they don’t know Pippen yet.


Steals per 36 are higher in this span (2.5 vs 2.0), blocks are basically the same (about 0.8 for both); offensive rebounds are marginally higher, but total rebounds per 36 are lower. Turnovers per 36 are 0.1 better vs his career avg, too, fwiw.

However, points per 36 in his first month are NOT quite at [or above] his career avg (16.0 vs 16.6).

His 1st-month FG% is marginally above his career (47.9% vs 47.3%)........though he's still sub-60% at the FT-line, barely takes 3's [and doesn't make them when he does]. Consequently, his TS% in this span is more than 3% below his career avg (in relative TS%, the gap is more like 4+%). I'm fairly sure you well know that FG% is a poor measure of shooting efficiency.

He's also committing about 1.0 additional fouls per 36 in this first month.


Even if calling all other things more or less a wash, the gap in shooting efficiency and the one additional foul committed puts even his first month a noticeable step below his career averages.

Additionally [fwiw], I can't decide if it isn't being a pinch semantically disingenuous to refer to Pippen's CAREER per 36 figures as a benchmark for "star", given those career figures include all the injury-hampered early games you refer to, PLUS several years of post-prime play. Probably is....

But Why first month insted of 1st seaon.
Any NBA player can have a hot month.

NBA defense is not that great 1st month.
Maybe the defense and effort is worse in February boredom month but 1st month is not good.

The other players around the league don’t know Pippen yet in the 1st month of Pippen’s 1st season.
The Bulls had not yeat established themselves as a team you can’t fool around with.
You have to play Pippen for his athleticism; don’t espose the ball; box out; better to let Pippen shoot than to let Pippen drive; but the lague does not even know that Pippen is dangerous in Pippen’s 1st month.

[therealbig3]

It was a mutual pairing. both helped each other.

Pippen would have been great no matter the team but i do feel he could only ever be a #2. He had some very public examples of that when MJ wasnt there to be batman.

He had some lowlights, but overall, he led the Bulls to a 55 win season and one game from the conference finals without Jordan, and that was without any time to find a suitable replacement for him. Next season wasn't as good, but they were still on track to make the playoffs again without Jordan.

I think he did perfectly fine as a #1, especially given the short notice and how little time he had to adapt to it.

[OhayoKD]

It was a mutual pairing. both helped each other.

Pippen would have been great no matter the team but i do feel he could only ever be a #2. He had some very public examples of that when MJ wasnt there to be batman.

He had some lowlights, but overall, he led the Bulls to a 55 win season and one game from the conference finals without Jordan, and that was without any time to find a suitable replacement for him. Next season wasn't as good, but they were still on track to make the playoffs again without Jordan.

I think he did perfectly fine as a #1, especially given the short notice and how little time he had to adapt to it.

Keep in mind that 55-win number doesn't account for missed time from Pippen and Grant. The Bulls were actually a 58-win team at full-strength that elevated in the playoffs(+4.5 to +8) and then they played at a 53-win srs the next year with Pippen and management warring. Pippen wanted to be a #2(or at least he did during the second half of 1994 and 1995) but he was really a #5 pick Krause was desperate to have, and he was undeniably capable of leading a title-contender(and literally did).