Do you think that the Suns finals run in 1993 was a fluke.

coastalmarker99 · Post #1 » by **coastalmarker99** » Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:18 am

Let’s look at their playoff series.

In the 1st Rd, Phoenix played the 39 win, -1.2 SRS Lakers.

And barely escaped.

Lost their first 2 at home (KJ out gm 1). Won 2 in LA.

In game 5, Phoenix was down 4 with 1:03 to play they won in OT…but just outran a historic choke.

As The Lakers had finished the season 6-15 plus No #8 had beaten a #1 on its home court and it Happened almost 3X here.

PHX also got NBA/Stern help.

In gm 5, Barkley made a shot too late with 2:28 to go It counted and they Also got a 31-21 FTA edge.

Next was the 49 win Spurs.

This was the Tarkanian Spurs, who went 18-1 when Lucas took over.

But…they finished 15-17.

Robinson dropped off in the final weeks.

Beat Portland with Drexler hurt.

Antoine Carr led all scorers in gm 3, got hurt in gm 4, didn’t play games 5 and 6.

The Suns won in 6, but it was close

They won gm 5, after being down 7 in the 4th; won gm 6, down 10 in the 4th.

With Carr out.

The Spurs got 43 more rebounds, but the Suns got forty more FTAs (more help).

The Suns & Spurs scored the same points in the series.

The Conference Final was against Seattle, a 55 win, 6+ SRS team.

Seattle was feuding as Karl had benched McKey and Kemp late in the season.

Seattle was 4th in ORtg.

They scored 107 PPG vs PHX, in a series with a 93 pace. 120, 118, 114, etc.

They shot 50%+ each of the last 4 gms.

The Seattle series went 7.

In gm 7, Barkley had his best game ever. 44/24.

But Game 7 is…suspect. The NBA wanted MJ vs Barkley.

So the Suns got 64 FTAs.

Tied a 40 yr record.

A ‘travesty.”

The Suns outscored Seattle by 1 pt in the series.

So after 3 series, the Suns:

Went the limit (w/OT) vs a 39 win team
Didn’t outscore 49 win Spurs missing a starter
Outscored the Sonics by 1 pt and got a “free pass” in gm 7

They were 11-7, winning on avg 104-103.

Taken to the limit twice.

Got/needed NBA help.

The more I look at that playoff run the more I think it was a fluke.

As their bench was horrible and they were a horrible defensive team

Ainge: 35, shot 35% in the PO

Chambers: 33, defensive liability, shot 38% in PO

Dumars: rookie, benched for gm 7 vs the Sonics

Miller: (fat) Rookie

Johnson: 34, out of the NBA 3 yrs

As a result of this poor depth

Barkley, KJ & Majerle played 46, 43 and 47 MPG in the Finals.

colts18 · Post #2 » by **colts18** » Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:16 pm

1989: 55-27
1990: 54-28
1991: 55-27
1992: 53-29
1993: 62-20
1994: 56-26
1995: 59-23

7 straight seasons of 53+ win basketball. There was no fluke involved at all.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #3 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:23 pm

Maybe not a fluke but I do agree that the league wanted Barkley v MJ in those finals to some degree and that Stern had a way of imposing what he wanted on series outcomes at times.

Owly · Post #4 » by **Owly** » Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:23 pm

coastalmarker99 wrote:Let’s look at their playoff series.

In the 1st Rd, Phoenix played the 39 win, -1.2 SRS Lakers.

And barely escaped.

Lost their first 2 at home (KJ out gm 1). Won 2 in LA.

In game 5, Phoenix was down 4 with 1:03 to play they won in OT…but just outran a historic choke.

As The Lakers had finished the season 6-15 plus No #8 had beaten a #1 on its home court and it Happened almost 3X here.

PHX also got NBA/Stern help.

In gm 5, Barkley made a shot too late with 2:28 to go It counted and they Also got a 31-21 FTA edge.

Next was the 49 win Spurs.

This was the Tarkanian Spurs, who went 18-1 when Lucas took over.

But…they finished 15-17.

Robinson dropped off in the final weeks.

Beat Portland with Drexler hurt.

Antoine Carr led all scorers in gm 3, got hurt in gm 4, didn’t play games 5 and 6.

The Suns won in 6, but it was close

They won gm 5, after being down 7 in the 4th; won gm 6, down 10 in the 4th.

With Carr out.

The Spurs got 43 more rebounds, but the Suns got forty more FTAs (more help).

The Suns & Spurs scored the same points in the series.

The Conference Final was against Seattle, a 55 win, 6+ SRS team.

Seattle was feuding as Karl had benched McKey and Kemp late in the season.

Seattle was 4th in ORtg.

They scored 107 PPG vs PHX, in a series with a 93 pace. 120, 118, 114, etc.

They shot 50%+ each of the last 4 gms.

The Seattle series went 7.

In gm 7, Barkley had his best game ever. 44/24.

But Game 7 is…suspect. The NBA wanted MJ vs Barkley.

So the Suns got 64 FTAs.

Tied a 40 yr record.

A ‘travesty.”

The Suns outscored Seattle by 1 pt in the series.

So after 3 series, the Suns:

Went the limit (w/OT) vs a 39 win team
Didn’t outscore 49 win Spurs missing a starter
Outscored the Sonics by 1 pt and got a “free pass” in gm 7

They were 11-7, winning on avg 104-103.

Taken to the limit twice.

Got/needed NBA help.

The more I look at that playoff run the more I think it was a fluke.

As their bench was horrible and they were a horrible defensive team

Ainge: 35, shot 35% in the PO

Chambers: 33, defensive liability, shot 38% in PO

Dumars: rookie, benched for gm 7 vs the Sonics

Miller: (fat) Rookie

Johnson: 34, out of the NBA 3 yrs

As a result of this poor depth

Barkley, KJ & Majerle played 46, 43 and 47 MPG in the Finals.

colts18 wrote:1989: 55-27
1990: 54-28
1991: 55-27
1992: 53-29
1993: 62-20
1994: 56-26
1995: 59-23

7 straight seasons of 53+ win basketball. There was no fluke involved at all.

Okay so there's two seperate things going on here.

Were the Suns good enough to make the finals: Colts data suggests yes, and whilst I'd suggest some of the teams are less relevant and the '95 team vastly outperformed pythag wins, they are not a team that strikes you as undeserving or out of places in the finals (though this can be said of multiple teams in a conference in most years).

Were they lucky in their route or in terms of their playoff standard of play ...

I'd have to check on some of the contextual stuff offered here ... and I'd be cynical on the idea the league put their thumb on the scales (the potential cost to the league if discovered would be enough of a deterrent to me even if I wanted such an outcome and knew others around me did too) that said
are they lucky to have the 1 seed ...
perhaps ... their SRS is inferior to the Supersonics'.

Matchups ... don't know apart from Houston vs Seattle but have (iirc) heard it suggested that Seattle>Houston>Phoenix>Seattle in terms of matchups around that time. If that were the case (big "if"), an early Seattle versus Houston series suited them well.

Phoenix extended the distance in 2 of their 3 wins probably not a great sign. That they outscore Sonics by 1 and tie the Spurs for net score isn't great either (though at the same time, it should be said that they tie the Bulls in the finals too).

The Sonics as opponents were probably in a weaker state than they (or a hypothetical other) might have been by going the full series in both prior rounds.

So there are some things there that I'm pretty sure are real. that you might call "lucky" on the other hand how much of this is typical and how much stuff on the other side have I missed or not discussed (e.g. Ceballos injury) ... idk, I'd have to dig deeper.

G35 · Post #5 » by **G35** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:07 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Maybe not a fluke but I do agree that the league wanted Barkley v MJ in those finals to some degree and that Stern had a way of imposing what he wanted on series outcomes at times.

Barkley was very good when his team was against the wall. Especially in 1993. The Suns were the cardiac kids in the playoffs that season. The Lakers changed their approach against the Suns and started Elden Campbell and Vlade Divac and two seven ftrs bothered Barkley. The Suns were down 0-2 and Paul Westphal guaranteed they would come back and win the series.

Watch on YouTube

Those Suns were as entertaining as any team I have ever watched. Unfortunately Kevin Johnson was injured a lot and Cedric Ceballos were injured for that playoffs. If Ceballos had not gotten hurt I think the Suns would have beaten the Bulls that year......

Warriors Analyst · Post #6 » by **Warriors Analyst** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:40 pm

A common theme in OP's posts seems to be a heavy-handed and roundabout disparagement of Jordan.

FuShengTHEGreat · Post #7 » by **FuShengTHEGreat** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:54 pm

No....they weren't a fluke.

However the notion I've seen about the Bulls being underdogs and somehow "overcoming" them in the Finals on videos just because they had a better record is completely overblown to prop up their dynasty.

The Bulls were much more talented overall than the Suns at both ends to begin with.

Pretty much the same Phoenix roster (yes Dumas was missing but Ceballos was there so it was a wash) couldn't even beat Houston the following year who unlike the 93 Bulls, they actually were more talented overall than.

The media was propping up Jordan vs the MVP Barkley, which I slightly disagree with him winning it that year in the first place.

Lastly game 7 vs Seattle which booked the Suns' passage to the Finals was one of the most biased officiated games in NBA history I've ever seen The Suns had 64 FTAs in a game that didn't even reach overtime!

Morb · Post #8 » by **Morb** » Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:20 am

Another jordans "strong" opponent.

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tone wone · Post #9 » by **tone wone** » Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:12 pm

Didn't every opponent they faced outperformed their regular season numbers offensively? I think only 2014 Heat performed as bad defensively during a finals run.