Ranking Perimeter Creators

[Ryoga Hibiki]

In this thread I tried to express on a more effective way to slot players into different positions:
Primary ball handler
Perimeter creator
On ball scorer
Off ball scorer
Perimeter defender
Defensive big wing
Offensive big
Defensive big

I would like to start creating a ranking (and tier) of top15 for each of these positions and see where the discussion would go from there.
My first one would be the perimeter creator, defined like this:

This is a guy who who will both score, organize the offense and create for others. He can also bring the ball up but he's the one often creating the advantage. Guys who relentlessly attack the basket are often in this group
Example: Luka, LeBron, Trae, Garland, Shai, Morant

This is probably the most valuable role today, that might define the ceiling of your team unless you can have a special combination of guys in different roles.

Assuming reasonable health and age related progression/regression over the next 12 months, this would be my list:

Tier 1
1 Luka

Tie 2
2 Lillard
3 SGA
4 Harden

Tier 3
5 LeBron
6 Morant
7 Haliburton

Tier 4
8 Garland
9 De'Arron Fox
10 Trae young
11 Siakam
12 LaMelo

Tier 5
13 Dinwiddie
14 McCollum
15 Brogdon

I consider most elite SG and SF "perimeter scorers".
Steph I see him more like an "off ball scorer" but this is actually tricky, he would be 1 or 2 in this list.

[Dutchball97]

Honestly I don't think this is a more effective way at all. Seems like a lot of unnecessary distinctions between on/off-ball, offense/defense and even a lot of similarities in certain roles where plenty of players could realistically fit in both (this especailly applies to perimeter creator being an awkward middle between primary playmaker and on ball scorer as well as perimeter defender and defensive big wing not having enough seperation). Especially in a league that is becoming more versatile by the minute, I don't think what we need is more categories where it is even more confusing who fits where than traditional positions.

[Colbinii]

BBall-Index already does this with their LEBRON statistic and I don't like it. This is similar and I feel the same way--trying to fit players into certain groups or categories isn't as productive as assessing players holistically.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Honestly I don't think this is a more effective way at all. Seems like a lot of unnecessary distinctions between on/off-ball, offense/defense and even a lot of similarities in certain roles where plenty of players could realistically fit in both (this especailly applies to perimeter creator being an awkward middle between primary playmaker and on ball scorer as well as perimeter defender and defensive big wing not having enough seperation). Especially in a league that is becoming more versatile by the minute, I don't think what we need is more categories where it is even more confusing who fits where than traditional positions.

More versatile actually means that the old positions are useless, not that you can't group people into different archetypes.
LeBron and Trae Young are more similar to each other than to Aaron Gordon or Alex Caruso.
And I am well aware there some overlapping in some positions, as there will always be a continuum.
But you'll notice that you'll now a lot about a team if I would just tell you what kind of player it has in a the lineup.
For instance, what team could be this one:
Perimeter Creator
Off ball Scorer
Off ball Scorer (probably)
Defensive big wing
Offensive big
?
or
Perimeter Creator
Off ball Scorer
Defensive perimeter player
Defensive big
Defensive big
or
Perimeter scorer
Defensive perimeter player
Defensive big wing
Off ball scorer
Offensive big

[Ryoga Hibiki]

BBall-Index already does this with their LEBRON statistic and I don't like it. This is similar and I feel the same way--trying to fit players into certain groups or categories isn't as productive as assessing players holistically.

it's the first step to then look at their overall value
and it helps understand what players can play together

[Dutchball97]

BBall-Index already does this with their LEBRON statistic and I don't like it. This is similar and I feel the same way--trying to fit players into certain groups or categories isn't as productive as assessing players holistically.

The shot creator archetype is the worst as it tells you nothing. Luka Doncic, Kawhi Leonard and Joel Embiid are all shot creators apparently but none of them play anything alike.

My favorite is 6'4 Tony Allen being listed as a roll + cut big in 2015, 2017 and 2018. Even weirder that he went back to being labeled an athletic finisher again in 2016 at 34 years old.

[capfan33]

BBall-Index already does this with their LEBRON statistic and I don't like it. This is similar and I feel the same way--trying to fit players into certain groups or categories isn't as productive as assessing players holistically.

it's the first step to then look at their overall value
and it helps understand what players can play together

Definitely don't think this is necessary to do either of those things even though I understand the reasoning behind it.

[MyUniBroDavis]

BBall-Index already does this with their LEBRON statistic and I don't like it. This is similar and I feel the same way--trying to fit players into certain groups or categories isn't as productive as assessing players holistically.

I mean, it literally makes it more predictive because of how the box score aspects are calculated lmao

[rk2023]

Unless you are very into availability, I don't see the reason to have Gilgeous-Alexander and Harden over James.. and in a vacuum I don't see Luka as *that* ahead of James/Lillard.

Some stats linked below. Albeit that is of January 17th and a smaller sample in the grand scheme of things, and James has been nursing injuries so if you're consistent with factoring that I don't mind the ranking too much. But TLDR, if we're ranking everybody healthy.. I really do not see much a difference of James from the highest echelon of this archetype.

Since AD went down on Dec. 16th, LeBron on court in 507 minutes:

34/8/8 on 63% TS, 59% eFG while not being able to make threes and getting a paltry amount of free throws

Lakers with a 122.6 ORtg, 112.3 DRtg, +10.2 per 100, -16.0 with him off, LeBron +26.3 on-off.

+10.3 on court with the highest minutes guys with him are Schroeder (nobody wanted), Russ (nobody wanted to trade for him), Bryant (limited interest), Gabriel (scrap heap find), Nunn (injured and playing awful), Austin Reaves (missed games), Troy Brown Jr., Pat Bev (missed games) and Lonnie Walker.

During this period:

Luka: Mavs with a +3.3 on court, 120.7 ORtg
Jokic: Nuggets +13.1 on court, 122.7 ORtg
Giannis: Bucks +.3 on court, 111.3 ORtg
Steph just got back from injury: Warriors -.7 on court, 107 ORtg
Tatum: Celtics +7.1 on court, 119.2 ORtg
Embiid: Sixers +9.7 on court, 121.6 ORtg

At the beginning of the season things seem dire, but it’s clear that he was hampered by injury and illness because he’s been a completely different player afterwards. I think I can confidently say he’s in the six through 10th range.

[rk2023]

Also forgot to add. Contrary to general sentiment in this thread, I like the idea of archetypes even though I may not necessarily agree with how specific & "down to a T" BBall Index does so.

Another platform, CraftedNBA, dabbles in similar classification and grouping of players - with a similarly correlated goal of predictability analysis for player comparisons. Such clustering and using multiple pieces of data to find and classify "player similarity" really intrigues me and I think is one of the cooler applications of "analytics" that GMs/Coaches/Scouts alike could use moving forward

Crafted Links:
https://craftednba.com/player-roles
https://craftednba.com/player-traits

[Texas Chuck]

I find most all of this labeling arbitrary and a bit capricious and those most concerned with attaching labels also seem concerned with very specific agendas regarding players they either love or hate. We've seen this most clearly with those determined to make sure Tim Duncan is a center for instance. We also have people now insist Luka Doncic be labeled a forward because he doesn't defend PG's. In a PNR league where everyone switches everything. It never made sense to define players on who they defended, but it absolutely doesn't today, because that's essentially a dead concept.