All Primes: 1995 Spurs vs. 1996 Magic

[SelakStreet]

Who would win a best of 7 with all players in their average prime condition and with 1995 rules/refs?

Prime 1995 Spurs
Avery Johnson / Doc Rivers
VDN / Willie Anderson
Sean Elliott / Chuck Person
Dennis Rodman / Terry Cummings
David Robinson / Moses Malone

Prime 1996 Magic
Penny Hardaway / Darrell Armstrong
Nick Anderson / Brian Shaw
Dennis Scott / Larry Stewart
Horace Grant / Kenny Gattison
Shaquille O’Neal / Jon Koncak

Note: 1995 Spurs get a training camp with 1996 coaches to learn how the offense operates

[Owly]

'95 Spurs get to add

Non-toxic version of Rodman (and remove actual Rodman)
prime Moses
prime Cummings
prime Rivers
(from low baselines)

Orlando get better/healthier Shaq (IRL played 54 games, a bit under 2000 minutes)
Armstrong (a real addition to be sure)
a better Koncak

Heck W Anderson and Person are competent starters now too.

Got to go but seems a lot bigger upgrade for SA so unless you think them a lot worse ...

[migya]

Prime Moses with Robinson is a likely championship any year.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

'95 Spurs get to add

Non-toxic version of Rodman (and remove actual Rodman)
prime Moses
prime Cummings
prime Rivers
(from low baselines)

Orlando get better/healthier Shaq (IRL played 54 games, a bit under 2000 minutes)
Armstrong (a real addition to be sure)
a better Koncak

Heck W Anderson and Person are competent starters now too.

Got to go but seems a lot bigger upgrade for SA so unless you think them a lot worse ...

But you can't just magically turn Rodman into non toxic Rodman. That was predicated on who he was paired with.

Robinson doesn't suddenly stop trying to preach his Christian beliefs on any version of him. This was a big issue behind the scenes. Except for Detroit and Chicago he was a headcase at all his other stops.

The reason he didn't pull that bull jive on those two teams was because they were led by iron willed Alphas in Isiah and Michael.

You rubbed either the wrong way:

(Dantley in Detroit)
(Woolridge and all those junkies on the mid 80s Bulls)

And you literally punched your ticket outta town.

[Owly]

'95 Spurs get to add

Non-toxic version of Rodman (and remove actual Rodman)
prime Moses
prime Cummings
prime Rivers
(from low baselines)

Orlando get better/healthier Shaq (IRL played 54 games, a bit under 2000 minutes)
Armstrong (a real addition to be sure)
a better Koncak

Heck W Anderson and Person are competent starters now too.

Got to go but seems a lot bigger upgrade for SA so unless you think them a lot worse ...

But you can't just magically turn Rodman into non toxic Rodman.

Not magic, no. But you can pick a Rodman that seems willing to conform to team rules. Rodman was for most of his Detroit career ... goofy? A "hot dog" But not described a a distraction. Not ignoring coaching requests. Not aggressively courting publicity. Not feuding with management or kinda going awol. Not abandoning his man ... The idea then was that he loved the game

Then and this is fuzzy both in terms of doing it otoh and what's in the public domain but he splits with his wife (some allegatiions of an affair with one of his teammates), the shotgun incident follows ...

Now we don't know the timelines there's suggestions in '93 that with Rothstein rather than Daly he's getting worse so if you want to say it's all on Daly keeping him sane ... maybe. I think he helps but my best guess is there's some trauma and some change that shifts Rodman.

That was predicated on who he was paired with.

Not sure about "paired" but if the idea is that context matters sure.

Robinson doesn't suddenly stop trying to preach his Christian beliefs on any version of him. This was a big issue behind the scenes.

Look I didn't read ABAIWTB closely. The weird font stuff and mental contortions in him justifying himself in SA ... I'm struggling to take him as a consistently reliable source.

On SA it is true that a number of leaders were openly Christian: Johnson, Robinson and Cummings otoh.
There have been (to my knowledge) small instances where his worldview could plausibly reasonably be ... chafing (response to Nash regarding Iraq War being the one I know of - I think someone has pointed out such an instance in a prior conversation on here).

That said I'm not aware of any other teammate having a problem with Robinson. I am aware that Rodman felt underpaid, didn't like that new management weren't going to honor a deal he thought he had with the prior regime and ceased being a reliable or even typical net asset and became ... toxic.

Except for Detroit and Chicago he was a headcase at all his other stops.

Leaving aside the vocab (I think perhaps headcase is outdated, idk) ... my impressions is he wasn't that stable in Chicago. But Chicago's brass didn't have the baggage of a supposed broken promise, Chicago were good enough that they didn't "need" him in the same way. Rodman was seen as damaged goods ... Chicago had enough leverage that they could mostly make it work.

The reason he didn't pull that bull jive on those two teams was because they were led by iron willed Alphas in Isiah and Michael.

You rubbed either the wrong way:

(Dantley in Detroit)
(Woolridge and all those junkies on the mid 80s Bulls)

And you literally punched your ticket outta town.

[/quote]
Per above the notion that Rodman wasn't doing anything "jive" is ... not something I'd agree with. But per above also would note that Chicago probably represented his last chance to make good money so there was incentive/leverage enough for him not to go too far outside the lines.

"Iron-willed Alphas" talk ... I'll pass on.

Thomas denied involvement in Dantley and they got a significantly younger player for throwing in a late first round pick that wasn'g going to be in their rotation or work for their timeline. I've heard McCallum had everyone available in the mid-80s including Isiah. I don't know whether Thomas was involved or consulted. My impression is it's a McCallum/Daly decision and even as someone who rates Dantley (and notes the injuries and that the win streak started before Dantley went) ... it's not one where you need to look for some smoking gun for an ulterior motive. On basketball grounds resetting expectations on the SF position and getting younger worked.

In Chicago too, whilst Jordan was direct I don't know that he was running the room in Chicago. So far as I can tell Woolridge wasn't ran out of town, but allowed to leave in a functional trade (back when free agents weren't really free) where Chicago managed to wrangle (or were arbitrated) a first round pick from struggling New Jersey.

I could be wrong overall or on details, but that's where I am.