08 KG vs 83 Malone

[eminence]

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I would also like to see a bit more on that. His box-score probably had him as a top ~5 guy in the league on offense at his peak (3rd in OWS, 8th in OBPM in '83).

Way beyond to me implies he should be a strong contender for best offensive player in the league if not the clear best, which strikes me as a bit high.

You don't think that Moses was arguably the best offensive player in the league in 1981-83 period?

I can see the shape of the argument, so I guess I agree it's arguable, but I'd probably give it to Gervin and certainly don't see Moses as a tier up on the other contenders.

[1993Playoffs]

I also think Kareem was far from his peak by 1983 especially in his mobility

[Cavsfansince84]

I also think Kareem was far from his peak by 1983 especially in his mobility

I think this goes almost without saying. He could still put up great offensive numbers from 81 on simply because he had absurd length paired with great skill but his prime/peaks years were done by 1980. It just shows how good peak/prime Kareem was that he could still be in the convo as a top player in the league for 6 years after that.

[70sFan]

I also think Kareem was far from his peak by 1983 especially in his mobility

I think this goes almost without saying. He could still put up great offensive numbers from 81 on simply because he had absurd length paired with great skill but his prime/peaks years were done by 1980. It just shows how good peak/prime Kareem was that he could still be in the convo as a top player in the league for 6 years after that.

I think Kareem finished his prime in 1981, when he was still MVP level player and overall likely the best player in the league.

[rk2023]

I think I'd take Moses here, mostly due to his outstanding postseason run against top tier competition. I know, Garnett was a better defender, but Malone offensive impact went way beyond boxscore numbers at his peak.

It's a reasonable comparison and I understand people who prefer KG though.

Would you mind elaborating upon what you mean? My ‘hypothesis’ is that the unparalleled offensive rebounding volume and success played a massive role in “ceiling raising” Philadelphia’s offense throughout the campaign by serving as high-efficiency offense (as is the case with 2nd chance points, generally). Was wondering if you have any data in support of what you’re getting at, as I enjoy reading through your tracking projects / analyses on the board.

I would also like to see a bit more on that. His box-score probably had him as a top ~5 guy in the league on offense at his peak (3rd in OWS, 8th in OBPM in '83).

Way beyond to me implies he should be a strong contender for best offensive player in the league if not the clear best, which strikes me as a bit high.

How was his PS OBPM? I’d take it close to (if not) best in the league?

[iggymcfrack]

Would you mind elaborating upon what you mean? My ‘hypothesis’ is that the unparalleled offensive rebounding volume and success played a massive role in “ceiling raising” Philadelphia’s offense throughout the campaign by serving as high-efficiency offense (as is the case with 2nd chance points, generally). Was wondering if you have any data in support of what you’re getting at, as I enjoy reading through your tracking projects / analyses on the board.

I would also like to see a bit more on that. His box-score probably had him as a top ~5 guy in the league on offense at his peak (3rd in OWS, 8th in OBPM in '83).

Way beyond to me implies he should be a strong contender for best offensive player in the league if not the clear best, which strikes me as a bit high.

How was his PS OBPM? I’d take it close to (if not) best in the league?

3rd behind Bernard King and Johnny Moore in 1983. If you said “who’s Johnny Moore?”, right there with you. A career role player who really did nothing of note, except he somehow averaged 23 PPG with 15 assists and 3 steals over an 11 game sample while shooting 53% from three that playoffs in an all-time out of nowhere performance. He led the playoffs in APG, SPG, and 3-point percentage.

[OhayoKD]

I don’t see how this is close. Both guys had comparable numbers, Moses was a very meh defender for a superstar big, and KG in 2008 had maybe the best defensive season of the modern era. What’s the last season where someone played better D? You honestly might have to go back to Russell. The only argument for Malone is team performance, but I would argue the Celtics actually played better overall. I feel like taking Moses here is just clearly wrong.

How do you figure they had comparable numbers? Offensively and rebounding is clearly Malone. Malone also was All-Defensive Centre that year.
Also, best defensive season of the modern era? How do you figure that? KG is an all time great defender, but by far the biggest contributor was Tom Thibedeau's revolutionary defense. Don't confuse correlation with causation. There have been many better defensive players and seasons than KG. The only argument is team performance? In 82/83 Moses won MVP with 69 of 75 first place votes, Finals MVP and All-Defense first team. In 07/08 KG was 3rd in the MVP voting behind Kobe and Chris Paul. Paul Pierce won Finals MVP. Moses was completely dominant this season. This is not close.

Regular season
Malone: 25.1 PER, .234 WS/48, 3.7 BPM
Garnett: 25.3 PER, .268 WS/48, 8.2 BPM

Postseason
Malone: 25.7 PER, .260 WS/48, 6.4 BPM
Garnett: 23.0 PER, .199 WS/48, 6.6 BPM

Looks pretty comparable to me.

Kobe’s MVP in 2008 was a career achievement/pity MVP. KG was clearly the best player that season and it wasn’t close. When Embiid won MVP this year, I was actually comparing it to Kobe’s MVP since that was the last MVP won purely out of pity for somebody just not having won it before despite being close multiple times.

In the regular season, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +16.4 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +11.8. In the postseason, the Celtics had a NetRtg of +10.3 with KG on the floor and he had an on/off of +19.8. He was the straw that stirred the drink. Thibodeau’s defense was all built around KG’s rim protection. It didn’t work without him.

Kobe was pretty clearly a better regular season player than KG. Even if you want to go by impact stats, kg's advantage goes away when you account for minutes and games played