Where does Jokic rank all time?

[OhayoKD]

Moses Malone is a good comparison. He was great from 1979 to 1988 or 89. 3 mvps included over top 10 alltime players. Moses isn't even in most top 20 lists. Jokic hasn't yet accomplished that much.

No, that's inaccurate. Jokic is clearly considerably superior to Moses on offense and actually led a team to the title. Malone's title team reached the Finals the year before he even got there, which really doesn't craft a similar narrative.

Jokic was clearly the best player over the last 3 regular seasons including the one he didn't win mvp. Was Moses even the clear best rs player for one of his?

[70sFan]

Moses Malone is a good comparison. He was great from 1979 to 1988 or 89. 3 mvps included over top 10 alltime players. Moses isn't even in most top 20 lists. Jokic hasn't yet accomplished that much.

No, that's inaccurate. Jokic is clearly considerably superior to Moses on offense and actually led a team to the title. Malone's title team reached the Finals the year before he even got there, which really doesn't craft a similar narrative.

For narrative purposes, Moses has another trip to the finals with worse team and beating defending champions.

Either way, I agree that Jokic doesn't belong next to Moses YET.

[70sFan]

Moses Malone is a good comparison. He was great from 1979 to 1988 or 89. 3 mvps included over top 10 alltime players. Moses isn't even in most top 20 lists. Jokic hasn't yet accomplished that much.

No, that's inaccurate. Jokic is clearly considerably superior to Moses on offense and actually led a team to the title. Malone's title team reached the Finals the year before he even got there, which really doesn't craft a similar narrative.

Jokic was clearly the best player over the last 3 regular seasons including the one he didn't win mvp. Was Moses even the clear best rs player for one of his?

I think he was in 1982 at least.

[OhayoKD]

Moses Malone is a good comparison. He was great from 1979 to 1988 or 89. 3 mvps included over top 10 alltime players. Moses isn't even in most top 20 lists. Jokic hasn't yet accomplished that much.

No, that's inaccurate. Jokic is clearly considerably superior to Moses on offense and actually led a team to the title. Malone's title team reached the Finals the year before he even got there, which really doesn't craft a similar narrative.

For narrative purposes, Moses has another trip to the finals with worse team and beating defending champions.

Either way, I agree that Jokic doesn't belong next to Moses YET.

Is sweeping the team that beat the defending champions worse than beating the defending champions? Narratively I don't think what Moses essentially pulling what Durant did in 2017 stacks up with Jokic's victory here. Reaching the finals with a .500 team is more notable tbh

[70sFan]

No, that's inaccurate. Jokic is clearly considerably superior to Moses on offense and actually led a team to the title. Malone's title team reached the Finals the year before he even got there, which really doesn't craft a similar narrative.

For narrative purposes, Moses has another trip to the finals with worse team and beating defending champions.

Either way, I agree that Jokic doesn't belong next to Moses YET.

Is sweeping the team that beat the defending champions worse than beating the defending champions? Narratively I don't think what Moses essentially pulling what Durant did in 2017 stacks up with Jokic's victory here. Reaching the finals with a .500 team is more notable tbh

For narrative, it's probably better - especially in this case because we know that the Lakers won titles before and after this upset. Objectively, all that matters is the strength of opposition of course.

I meant that 1981+1983 still looks a bit better from narrative perspective than 2023. Again, not looking at who is better or not.

About 1983 - I get 2017 KD comparison, but there are two key differences that are important from narrative perspective again:

1. Philly failed to win the title in a very long time, while the Warriors won in 2015 and almost won in 2016 with Curry injured. Sixers were elite, but they weren't clearly the best team in the league.
2. Moses was clearly the best player on that title run, while KD doesn't have a strong case over Curry and some might argue Green over him as well.

Again, I'm not judging who is better, I think Jokic surpassed Moses peak-wise last year.

[-Luke-]

Colbinii already mentioned Wade as a comparison. Robinson and Wade were the first two names that came to mind when I read the title. I'd have Jokic in that range between them right now (probably not over Robinson yet, maybe ahead of Wade, not quite sure). So somewhere in the 18-27 range.

I would expect Jokic to crack the top 15 in the next two years. The sky is the limit if he can add great longevity.

[TheLand13]

I don’t really see how you can put him outside the top 30 at this point. Someone mentioned that his ceiling is Bird, and while I think that’s an odd statement to make since everyone’s viewpoint of where he belongs all time is different, I actually kind of get where they’re coming from.

In any case, these past few seasons from Jokic have been insane. Where we go from here is anyone’s guess, but if he continues to keep up this dominance, I don’t see how he doesn’t at the very least crack top 15.

It isn't that hard. He's basically had 3 super high level seasons at this point. Granted they are super high with 2 mvps, ring and overall very good playoff series but then I look at guys like Havlicek, who was mvp level for a few seasons, all def for about 15 years, 1a or 1b on 2 title teams and a great role player on 6 others and he's outside most people's top 30 and I think still deserves to be ahead of Jokic, as would Baylor and a few others. So I think 35 is a fair place to have him ranked as of now. Keep in mind Jokic has also improved on defense(was considered a major negative there for most of his career) and didn't get himself into great shape until a few seasons ago.

So first and foremost, I don't really see how you can put Havlicek or even Baylor for that matter (for the record, I think Elgin Baylor is overrated) over Jokic anymore. Even with those things you just mentioned regarding Havlicek, he's never been able to carry a team like this before. He was never this dominant. You mentioned that Jokic has had three super high level seasons and quite frankly, that's underselling it pretty massively. Jokic has had three historically dominant seasons, the likes of which we haven't seen since LeBron in his prime. Jokic is in rare company with the play he's had up to the point. There are very few who compare.

If those two are your barometer here, then you and I aren't going to be able to come to an agreement on this one. He is absolutely above both of those guys and I'm going to have a tough time not laughing at any argument that tries to state otherwise.

[70sFan]

I don’t really see how you can put him outside the top 30 at this point. Someone mentioned that his ceiling is Bird, and while I think that’s an odd statement to make since everyone’s viewpoint of where he belongs all time is different, I actually kind of get where they’re coming from.

In any case, these past few seasons from Jokic have been insane. Where we go from here is anyone’s guess, but if he continues to keep up this dominance, I don’t see how he doesn’t at the very least crack top 15.

It isn't that hard. He's basically had 3 super high level seasons at this point. Granted they are super high with 2 mvps, ring and overall very good playoff series but then I look at guys like Havlicek, who was mvp level for a few seasons, all def for about 15 years, 1a or 1b on 2 title teams and a great role player on 6 others and he's outside most people's top 30 and I think still deserves to be ahead of Jokic, as would Baylor and a few others. So I think 35 is a fair place to have him ranked as of now. Keep in mind Jokic has also improved on defense(was considered a major negative there for most of his career) and didn't get himself into great shape until a few seasons ago.

So first and foremost, I don't really see how you can put Havlicek or even Baylor for that matter (for the record, I think Elgin Baylor is overrated) over Jokic anymore. Even with those things you just mentioned regarding Havlicek, he's never been able to carry a team like this before. He was never this dominant. You mentioned that Jokic has had three super high level seasons and quite frankly, that's underselling it pretty massively. Jokic has had three historically dominant seasons, the likes of which we haven't seen since LeBron in his prime. Jokic is in rare company with the play he's had up to the point. There are very few who compare.

If those two are your barometer here, then you and I aren't going to be able to come to an agreement on this one. He is absolutely above both of those guys and I'm going to have a tough time not laughing at any argument that tries to state otherwise.

Do you think the same way about Walton vs Havlicek?

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Top 5 Center ever.

Imho only Kareem, Hakeem & Shaq can claim to have had better individual runs to a title than Jokic.

Honorable mention in this aspect (Mikan, Russell Chamberlain, Walton, Malone).

[ty 4191]

Who do you take?

I don’t know where to rank Jokic, but, there’s a strong case that he has had the greatest/most dominant 3 year offensive run in NBA history…

How many players, period, have had a 3 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!

Updated:

Consider that in the past 250 games/3 full seasons (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.6/12.2/8.5 on +8.7 rTS% (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.6/12.2/8.5 in ANY 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.1 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for 3 full seasons, including the playoffs and two deep playoff runs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.6 PER across the last 250 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and Lebron James.

2. His BPM the last 3 seasons is 12.2, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 5 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .660 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while maintaining an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .373 from three point range on very high volume for a big man. 

(.582/.373/.829 splits).

Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

He’s also unequivocally the greatest passing big man ever, and, quite arguably, the greatest passer in NBA history:

Single season assist percentage leaders (RS, min 2000 MP):

1. Jokic (22-23): 46.6%
2. Jokic (21-22): 42.6%
3. Jokic (20-21): 40.6%
4. Jokic (18-19): 37.0%
5. Jokic (19-20): 35.4%
6. Sabonis (22-23): 30.4%
7. Jokic (17-18): 29.6%
8. Jokic (16-17): 28.8%
9. Divac (03-04): 28.7%
10. Alvin Adams (75-76): 27.2%

Hilarious!

One last point: Jokic is 23rd in career assist percentage: (35.5%) among ALL players since they began tracking (1964-1965). Here’s the top 10 in that metric (1964-1965) among all centers:

1. Jokic: 35.5%
2. Alvin Adams: 21.7%
3. DeMarcus Cousins: 17.9%
4. Marc Gasol: 17.1%
5. Pau Gasol: 16.8%
6. Duncan: 16.7%
7. Horford: 16.4%
8. Joakim Noah: 16.1%
9. Mason Plumlee: 16.0%
10. Brad Miller: 16.0%

The separation there between Jokic and every other center the past 58 season is simply staggering.

Other Notable Centers Career Assist%:

Chamberlain: 15.8%
Kareem: 14.6%
Russell: 14.9%
Sikma: 14.0%
Shaq: 13.9%
David Robinson: 12.4%
Hakeem: 12.1%
Thurmond: 10.6%
Ewing: 9.9%
Bellamy: 9.4%
Moses: 6.0%

[migya]

Moses Malone is a good comparison. He was great from 1979 to 1988 or 89. 3 mvps included over top 10 alltime players. Moses isn't even in most top 20 lists. Jokic hasn't yet accomplished that much.

No, that's inaccurate. Jokic is clearly considerably superior to Moses on offense and actually led a team to the title. Malone's title team reached the Finals the year before he even got there, which really doesn't craft a similar narrative.

Jokic was clearly the best player over the last 3 regular seasons including the one he didn't win mvp. Was Moses even the clear best rs player for one of his?

To tsh - What Moses did in 1981 beats what Jokic did.

To Ohayo - Who was better from 81-83?

[Heej]

Top 25 already for me easily. Basically had 3 MVPs in a row and essentially a locked in top 8 peak postseason run ever. I'm taking his career over Dirk's already tbh

Wouldn’t go that far, Dirk has many more elite offensive seasons. I do believe Jokic will pass him and clearly the better talent but not yet.

Dirk was a monster for a long time.

Eh I think the differences in their peaks is so engulfing and the fact that Jokic in my eyes is basically a back to back to back MVP winner is more than enough for me to take him over Dirk at this point. Longevity matters to me but not when there's such a difference in peak play like this over a prime stretch

[NbaAllDay]

Did everyone miss the part where he said talent, not accolades/career.

I think his last 3 years as a talent/peak is easily top 20 and I can see arguments for top 10.

[tsherkin]

81 beats what Jokic did.

I don't really agree with that, personally.

They enjoyed a best-of-3 opening round, which is likely the only reason they had a chance (though tbf, Magic did play like garbage, though that had nothing to do with Moses). Then they beat another 40-win team in the conference finals.

Moses was a good player. 81 was a good run and he was a positive add to the Sixers, for sure. But it's not really the same thing. The biggest part of that whole deal was beating the Lakers in the first round, which mainly happened because it only took them 2 wins to accomplish. That isn't really an impressive series victory compared to what Jokic was doing. Not at all, leastwise to me.

[Woodsanity]

He is around 20-25 for me if he retired today.

Projection is honestly anywhere from top 5-top 15. If he has multiple playoffs like this ending in a ring he will move up REALLY FAST.
Top 15 is pretty much worst case scenario.

[Cavsfansince84]

So first and foremost, I don't really see how you can put Havlicek or even Baylor for that matter (for the record, I think Elgin Baylor is overrated) over Jokic anymore. Even with those things you just mentioned regarding Havlicek, he's never been able to carry a team like this before. He was never this dominant. You mentioned that Jokic has had three super high level seasons and quite frankly, that's underselling it pretty massively. Jokic has had three historically dominant seasons, the likes of which we haven't seen since LeBron in his prime. Jokic is in rare company with the play he's had up to the point. There are very few who compare.

If those two are your barometer here, then you and I aren't going to be able to come to an agreement on this one. He is absolutely above both of those guys and I'm going to have a tough time not laughing at any argument that tries to state otherwise.

It's not about them being a barometer. It's simply about what was accomplished in a career. I didn't say anything about Havlicek being as dominant as Jokic has been the last 3 years or that being the crux of why I'd have him lower either. I don't really care if we agree or not, I'm simply laying out the rationale for having him outside the top 30 still and relying solely on box score metrics(which I'm not against using) does leave defense largely out of the equation. By box score metrics he is up there with anyone but the difference is that some of those guys were among the best defenders in the league at the same time.

[TheLand13]

It isn't that hard. He's basically had 3 super high level seasons at this point. Granted they are super high with 2 mvps, ring and overall very good playoff series but then I look at guys like Havlicek, who was mvp level for a few seasons, all def for about 15 years, 1a or 1b on 2 title teams and a great role player on 6 others and he's outside most people's top 30 and I think still deserves to be ahead of Jokic, as would Baylor and a few others. So I think 35 is a fair place to have him ranked as of now. Keep in mind Jokic has also improved on defense(was considered a major negative there for most of his career) and didn't get himself into great shape until a few seasons ago.

So first and foremost, I don't really see how you can put Havlicek or even Baylor for that matter (for the record, I think Elgin Baylor is overrated) over Jokic anymore. Even with those things you just mentioned regarding Havlicek, he's never been able to carry a team like this before. He was never this dominant. You mentioned that Jokic has had three super high level seasons and quite frankly, that's underselling it pretty massively. Jokic has had three historically dominant seasons, the likes of which we haven't seen since LeBron in his prime. Jokic is in rare company with the play he's had up to the point. There are very few who compare.

If those two are your barometer here, then you and I aren't going to be able to come to an agreement on this one. He is absolutely above both of those guys and I'm going to have a tough time not laughing at any argument that tries to state otherwise.

Do you think the same way about Walton vs Havlicek?

No, and quite frankly, I'm really hoping Jokic's career doesn't end up like Walton's did.

[page]

Hm let us see, judging by those incredibly insightful box score metrics, probably top three.

At least, until we change the formulas around a bit. I am old enough to remember the halcyon days where 2017 Westbrook was a top three box score peak. Guess it depends whether our only interest is box score production, or whether we care about the players who anchor title-winning defences without offloading that responsibility onto others.

...and my "Yearly Login to And-1" Award goes to...

[One_and_Done]

I think 15 is his hard ceiling, even if he'd be borderline 20ish now.