2015-17 Steph Curry vs. 2021-23 Nikola Jokic

[Peregrine01]

People start to overrate Jokic defense now because he faced undersized team with no top slashers... interesting.

The Nuggets had the easiest path to a Championship ever, and it isn't even close. I gave the 2020 Lakers a hard time but these teams the Nuggets faced were well below the standard.

Championship difficulty by average opponent SRS (negatives zeroed out):

HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average)
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/(-0.67) (4.6100 average)
GSW 2022 7.02/3.12/5.37/2.15(4.415 average)
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.9875 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average)
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/(-0.53)/(-2.23) (3.5025 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/(-0.23) (3.5 average)
DET 1989 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
BOS 1986 2.10/8.69/2.59/(-3.12) (3.345 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
MIL 2021 5.67/2.14/4.24/-0.6 (3.0125 average)
LAL 1988 5.46/3.59/2.96/(-5.02) (3.0025 average)
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
LAL 1985 6.46/2.05/2.80/(-2.34) (2.8275 average)
BOS 1984 3.32/4.04/3.79/(-2.36) (2.7875 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/(-0.02)/(-1.83) (2.5025 average)
DET 1990 6.48/2.74/0.78/(-0.18) (2.500 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/(-0.39)/(-0.43) (2.4525 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/(-0.17) (2.4475 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/(-0.61) (2.0175 average)
LAL 1987 6.57/0.08/(-2.54)/(-1.14) (1.6625 average)
DEN 2023 (-0.13)/0.22/2.08/(-0.43) (0.575 average)

Not only did they face weaker competition, they themselves only had an SRS of 3.04. In modern basketball history only the 94/95 Rockets have a lower SRS, and they had to go thought teams that were rated 3.85, 5.90, 6.44 & 7.76.

These Nuggets were a statistical anomaly. I wouldn't use this Championship to rank them next to the all time greats until the can prove it's more than just an anomaly.

I think SRS means a lot less than it used to this year because of how much teams load manage and how much player shuffling there was this year. Suns and Lakers were thought of and played like legit contenders following the trade deadline. Nuggets were underdogs against both and beat both.

[Peregrine01]

Jokic is a great player. I'd put him around 20ish all-time. He's not Curry, or KD, or Giannis, or even peak Kawhi probably, because those players don't have glaring weaknesses. Kudos to Jokic for getting a good enough team around him, and a lucky draw that didn't exploit his high pick and roll weakness.

If he was playing the Harden Rockets this year he'd have been spanked in the playoffs, and nobody thinks of Harden as some GOAT like player. Similar story if this team had played the 21 Suns; they'd have been crushed.

Maybe those teams forget to check RAPTOR when they embarassed Jokic.

Just like the Suns (with the addition of KD) was supposed to expose him? And Lebron and AD were supposed to as well?

Jokic guarded the most pick and rolls by far these playoffs and held those plays to middling efficiency.

[PaulieWal]

People start to overrate Jokic defense now because he faced undersized team with no top slashers... interesting.

The Nuggets had the easiest path to a Championship ever, and it isn't even close. I gave the 2020 Lakers a hard time but these teams the Nuggets faced were well below the standard.

Championship difficulty by average opponent SRS (negatives zeroed out):

HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average)
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/(-0.67) (4.6100 average)
GSW 2022 7.02/3.12/5.37/2.15(4.415 average)
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.9875 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average)
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/(-0.53)/(-2.23) (3.5025 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/(-0.23) (3.5 average)
DET 1989 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
BOS 1986 2.10/8.69/2.59/(-3.12) (3.345 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
MIL 2021 5.67/2.14/4.24/-0.6 (3.0125 average)
LAL 1988 5.46/3.59/2.96/(-5.02) (3.0025 average)
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
LAL 1985 6.46/2.05/2.80/(-2.34) (2.8275 average)
BOS 1984 3.32/4.04/3.79/(-2.36) (2.7875 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/(-0.02)/(-1.83) (2.5025 average)
DET 1990 6.48/2.74/0.78/(-0.18) (2.500 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/(-0.39)/(-0.43) (2.4525 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/(-0.17) (2.4475 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/(-0.61) (2.0175 average)
LAL 1987 6.57/0.08/(-2.54)/(-1.14) (1.6625 average)
DEN 2023 (-0.13)/0.22/2.08/(-0.43) (0.575 average)

Not only did they face weaker competition, they themselves only had an SRS of 3.04. In modern basketball history only the 94/95 Rockets have a lower SRS, and they had to go thought teams that were rated 3.85, 5.90, 6.44 & 7.76.

These Nuggets were a statistical anomaly. I wouldn't use this Championship to rank them next to the all time greats until the can prove it's more than just an anomaly.

I think SRS means a lot less than it used to this year because of how much teams load manage and how much player shuffling there was this year. Suns and Lakers were thought of and played like legit contenders following the trade deadline. Nuggets were underdogs against both and beat both.

I don't remember the Suns series but the Nuggets were pretty decent favorites against the Lakers. They were definitely not the underdogs in WCF.

[GSP]

The Nuggets had the easiest path to a Championship ever, and it isn't even close. I gave the 2020 Lakers a hard time but these teams the Nuggets faced were well below the standard.

Championship difficulty by average opponent SRS (negatives zeroed out):

HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average)
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/(-0.67) (4.6100 average)
GSW 2022 7.02/3.12/5.37/2.15(4.415 average)
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.9875 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average)
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/(-0.53)/(-2.23) (3.5025 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/(-0.23) (3.5 average)
DET 1989 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
BOS 1986 2.10/8.69/2.59/(-3.12) (3.345 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
MIL 2021 5.67/2.14/4.24/-0.6 (3.0125 average)
LAL 1988 5.46/3.59/2.96/(-5.02) (3.0025 average)
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
LAL 1985 6.46/2.05/2.80/(-2.34) (2.8275 average)
BOS 1984 3.32/4.04/3.79/(-2.36) (2.7875 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/(-0.02)/(-1.83) (2.5025 average)
DET 1990 6.48/2.74/0.78/(-0.18) (2.500 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/(-0.39)/(-0.43) (2.4525 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/(-0.17) (2.4475 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/(-0.61) (2.0175 average)
LAL 1987 6.57/0.08/(-2.54)/(-1.14) (1.6625 average)
DEN 2023 (-0.13)/0.22/2.08/(-0.43) (0.575 average)

Not only did they face weaker competition, they themselves only had an SRS of 3.04. In modern basketball history only the 94/95 Rockets have a lower SRS, and they had to go thought teams that were rated 3.85, 5.90, 6.44 & 7.76.

These Nuggets were a statistical anomaly. I wouldn't use this Championship to rank them next to the all time greats until the can prove it's more than just an anomaly.

I think SRS means a lot less than it used to this year because of how much teams load manage and how much player shuffling there was this year. Suns and Lakers were thought of and played like legit contenders following the trade deadline. Nuggets were underdogs against both and beat both.

I don't remember the Suns series but the Nuggets were pretty decent favorites against the Lakers. They were definitely not the underdogs in WCF.

Yeah La were underdogs every series its rare for road team to be favored in a series

[PaulieWal]

I think SRS means a lot less than it used to this year because of how much teams load manage and how much player shuffling there was this year. Suns and Lakers were thought of and played like legit contenders following the trade deadline. Nuggets were underdogs against both and beat both.

I don't remember the Suns series but the Nuggets were pretty decent favorites against the Lakers. They were definitely not the underdogs in WCF.

Yeah La were underdogs every series its rare for road team to be favored in a series

Yeah, I remember because I parlayed the Lakers and Celtics to win their respective series - was only a 20 but both my picks lost lol.

[ceiling raiser]

I love Curry but I can see the argument for Jokic. Took me a long time to appreciate his game. Tossup.

[oaktownwarriors87]

People start to overrate Jokic defense now because he faced undersized team with no top slashers... interesting.

The Nuggets had the easiest path to a Championship ever, and it isn't even close. I gave the 2020 Lakers a hard time but these teams the Nuggets faced were well below the standard.

Championship difficulty by average opponent SRS (negatives zeroed out):

HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average)
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/(-0.67) (4.6100 average)
GSW 2022 7.02/3.12/5.37/2.15(4.415 average)
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.9875 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average)
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/(-0.53)/(-2.23) (3.5025 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/(-0.23) (3.5 average)
DET 1989 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
BOS 1986 2.10/8.69/2.59/(-3.12) (3.345 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
MIL 2021 5.67/2.14/4.24/-0.6 (3.0125 average)
LAL 1988 5.46/3.59/2.96/(-5.02) (3.0025 average)
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
LAL 1985 6.46/2.05/2.80/(-2.34) (2.8275 average)
BOS 1984 3.32/4.04/3.79/(-2.36) (2.7875 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/(-0.02)/(-1.83) (2.5025 average)
DET 1990 6.48/2.74/0.78/(-0.18) (2.500 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/(-0.39)/(-0.43) (2.4525 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/(-0.17) (2.4475 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/(-0.61) (2.0175 average)
LAL 1987 6.57/0.08/(-2.54)/(-1.14) (1.6625 average)
DEN 2023 (-0.13)/0.22/2.08/(-0.43) (0.575 average)

Not only did they face weaker competition, they themselves only had an SRS of 3.04. In modern basketball history only the 94/95 Rockets have a lower SRS, and they had to go thought teams that were rated 3.85, 5.90, 6.44 & 7.76.

These Nuggets were a statistical anomaly. I wouldn't use this Championship to rank them next to the all time greats until the can prove it's more than just an anomaly.

I think SRS means a lot less than it used to this year because of how much teams load manage and how much player shuffling there was this year. Suns and Lakers were thought of and played like legit contenders following the trade deadline. Nuggets were underdogs against both and beat both.

Any data to back that up? SRS still looks consistent to me.

[One_and_Done]

Jokic is a great player. I'd put him around 20ish all-time. He's not Curry, or KD, or Giannis, or even peak Kawhi probably, because those players don't have glaring weaknesses. Kudos to Jokic for getting a good enough team around him, and a lucky draw that didn't exploit his high pick and roll weakness.

If he was playing the Harden Rockets this year he'd have been spanked in the playoffs, and nobody thinks of Harden as some GOAT like player. Similar story if this team had played the 21 Suns; they'd have been crushed.

Maybe those teams forget to check RAPTOR when they embarassed Jokic.

Just like the Suns (with the addition of KD) was supposed to expose him? And Lebron and AD were supposed to as well?

Jokic guarded the most pick and rolls by far these playoffs and held those plays to middling efficiency.

The Suns would have won. Then CP3 got hurt, the Booker got hurt, then Ayton missed a game too, and the Suns have no depth as it is. The Suns come back with even modest depth and health next year and the Nuggets are going down.

[TheGOATRises007]

Jokic is a great player. I'd put him around 20ish all-time. He's not Curry, or KD, or Giannis, or even peak Kawhi probably, because those players don't have glaring weaknesses. Kudos to Jokic for getting a good enough team around him, and a lucky draw that didn't exploit his high pick and roll weakness.

If he was playing the Harden Rockets this year he'd have been spanked in the playoffs, and nobody thinks of Harden as some GOAT like player. Similar story if this team had played the 21 Suns; they'd have been crushed.

Maybe those teams forget to check RAPTOR when they embarassed Jokic.

Just like the Suns (with the addition of KD) was supposed to expose him? And Lebron and AD were supposed to as well?

Jokic guarded the most pick and rolls by far these playoffs and held those plays to middling efficiency.

The Suns would have won. Then CP3 got hurt, the Booker got hurt, then Ayton missed a game too, and the Suns have no depth as it is. The Suns come back with even modest depth and health next year and the Nuggets are going down.

CP3 always gets hurt and they literally won 2 games without him.

[letskissbro]

Offensive edge decidedly goes to Jokic. He's much more resilient as a scorer and not as reliant on his teammates to capitalize on the openings he creates. 5 out spacing combined with high post passing is so incredibly difficult to defend, even more so than Golden State's motion offense.

From a team building perspective I'm still leaning toward Steph. The opportunity cost of having a slow footed center who is virtually non-existent as a rim protector is just too high.

[ardee]

Yeah this is Jokic for me. The Playoff resilience Jokic's game has shown is something Steph didn't achieve until very recently and even then he still has semi-frequent bad games. Jokic almost never has a poor Playoff game offensively.

Jokic I believe is clearly the best player since LeBron.

[Mikeball]

The answer is Steph Curry and clearly.

Steph adds more value as a scorer and a playmaker due to his unprecedented gravity. Jokic has fewer off nights but that doesnt make up the difference in offensive value imo.

People are forgetting that Jokic has been played off the floor in the playoffs vs the Suns (in 2021) and vs the Lakers (in 2020). He has never been on a team that has been top 10 in defense. Probably because he puts a low cap on your teams defensive ceiling.

Curry has been on a top 10 defensive team 6 times because you can put these rim protectors like Andrew Bogut and Zaza Pachulia next to him. You cant do that with Jokic because they will be exploited on the perimeter so you are stuck with a bad rim protecting Center. It doesnt even really hurt the Warriors offense because they were still the number 1 offense ever in the 2016 reg season and in the 2017 playoffs.

With Curry you have more offensive and defensive potential and he is far easier to build around.

I do think Jokic would be better on the very worst teams in the NBA as a floor raiser cause of his size and durability.

[LukaTheGOAT]

The Nuggets had the easiest path to a Championship ever, and it isn't even close. I gave the 2020 Lakers a hard time but these teams the Nuggets faced were well below the standard.

Championship difficulty by average opponent SRS (negatives zeroed out):

HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average)
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/(-0.67) (4.6100 average)
GSW 2022 7.02/3.12/5.37/2.15(4.415 average)
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.9875 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average)
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/(-0.53)/(-2.23) (3.5025 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/(-0.23) (3.5 average)
DET 1989 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
BOS 1986 2.10/8.69/2.59/(-3.12) (3.345 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
MIL 2021 5.67/2.14/4.24/-0.6 (3.0125 average)
LAL 1988 5.46/3.59/2.96/(-5.02) (3.0025 average)
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
LAL 1985 6.46/2.05/2.80/(-2.34) (2.8275 average)
BOS 1984 3.32/4.04/3.79/(-2.36) (2.7875 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/(-0.02)/(-1.83) (2.5025 average)
DET 1990 6.48/2.74/0.78/(-0.18) (2.500 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/(-0.39)/(-0.43) (2.4525 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/(-0.17) (2.4475 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/(-0.61) (2.0175 average)
LAL 1987 6.57/0.08/(-2.54)/(-1.14) (1.6625 average)
DEN 2023 (-0.13)/0.22/2.08/(-0.43) (0.575 average)

Not only did they face weaker competition, they themselves only had an SRS of 3.04. In modern basketball history only the 94/95 Rockets have a lower SRS, and they had to go thought teams that were rated 3.85, 5.90, 6.44 & 7.76.

These Nuggets were a statistical anomaly. I wouldn't use this Championship to rank them next to the all time greats until the can prove it's more than just an anomaly.

I think SRS means a lot less than it used to this year because of how much teams load manage and how much player shuffling there was this year. Suns and Lakers were thought of and played like legit contenders following the trade deadline. Nuggets were underdogs against both and beat both.

Any data to back that up? SRS still looks consistent to me.

Maybe looking at vetting odds is arguably better?

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[AEnigma]

Did you think the Suns were better than the Nuggets?

Did any statistical models think the Suns were better than the Nuggets?

Even with Durant, the Suns did not have a particularly impressive starting lineup (although individually Durant had a high on-court rating).

The fact the Suns were ever favoured is a key example why futures betting is not a serious marker of quality.

Now, per the models, the Nuggets would not have been favoured over most expected East winners, and they did not establish a commanding lead over their own conference. Anyone who wants to portray them as inevitable is wrong. 2015 and 2017 Steph had a much easier path. We do not need Vegas to tell us that though.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Did you think the Suns were better than the Nuggets?

Did any statistical models think the Suns were better than the Nuggets?

Even with Durant, the Suns did not have a particularly impressive starting lineup (although individually Durant had a high on-court rating).

The fact the Suns were ever favoured is a key example why futures betting is not a serious marker of quality.

Now, per the models, the Nuggets would be not been favoured over most expected East winners, and they did not establish a commanding lead over their own conference. Anyone who wants to portray them as inevitable is wrong. 2015 and 2017 Steph had a much easier path. We do not need Vegas to tell us that though.

Betting odds is a terrible way, but no way the Warriors had an easier path. A healthy Harden/Howard/Ariza/Smith/Terry on the 56 win Rockets team is far better than anything Denver faced. That 55 win Memphis team with Gasol and Randolph was also great. Cleveland snuck in two wins, but it wasn't a complete team even though they had prime LeBron James. The Pelicans teams wasn't very good.

Also, LOL at prime LeBron + prime Irving being "easier" in 2017 than anything Denver faced. Sure, the path wasn't the toughest... but it wasn't the easiest.

Denver had the easiest path to a Finals in modern NBA history and the numbers show that it wasn't even close.

[AEnigma]

Part of the easiness of a path is your own comparative advantage. There was basically no way for the 2017 Warriors to have a difficult path — and one of the few obstacles they could have had was removed halfway through Game 1 of the conference finals. I see what you mean in the sense that the 2017 defending champion Cavaliers are one of the best non-champions ever… but the team advantage was massive all the same.

I would call the 2015 run tougher if their opponents had ever been fully healthy, but they were not, and they had a clearer talent advantage. The 2015 Rockets (missing their starting point guard…) were not a tougher out than the 2023 Lakers, especially not considering the talent disparity in play.

[thekdog34]

Curry for me. GOAT level offense over many years. Not sure where the resiliency criticism comes from.

Jokic's playoff on/off is pretty bad, for what it's worth (unadjusted). Also only won 4 playoff games total 2021-22.

[HeartBreakKid]

Did you think the Suns were better than the Nuggets?

Did any statistical models think the Suns were better than the Nuggets?

Even with Durant, the Suns did not have a particularly impressive starting lineup (although individually Durant had a high on-court rating).

The fact the Suns were ever favoured is a key example why futures betting is not a serious marker of quality.

Now, per the models, the Nuggets would be not been favoured over most expected East winners, and they did not establish a commanding lead over their own conference. Anyone who wants to portray them as inevitable is wrong. 2015 and 2017 Steph had a much easier path. We do not need Vegas to tell us that though.

Betting odds is a terrible way, but no way the Warriors had an easier path. A healthy Harden/Howard/Ariza/Smith/Terry on the 56 win Rockets team is far better than anything Denver faced. That 55 win Memphis team with Gasol and Randolph was also great. Cleveland snuck in two wins, but it wasn't a complete team even though they had prime LeBron James. The Pelicans teams wasn't very good.

Also, LOL at prime LeBron + prime Irving being "easier" in 2017 than anything Denver faced. Sure, the path wasn't the toughest... but it wasn't the easiest.

Denver had the easiest path to a Finals in modern NBA history and the numbers show that it wasn't even close.

It was easier. It isn't The Cavs vs the teams the Nuggets faced.

The Warriors were way better than the Cavs and every other team, and people thought that for the entire season. The Nuggets were not favored to win the title or do as well as they did.

Competition is relative.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Did you think the Suns were better than the Nuggets?

Did any statistical models think the Suns were better than the Nuggets?

Even with Durant, the Suns did not have a particularly impressive starting lineup (although individually Durant had a high on-court rating).

The fact the Suns were ever favoured is a key example why futures betting is not a serious marker of quality.

Now, per the models, the Nuggets would be not been favoured over most expected East winners, and they did not establish a commanding lead over their own conference. Anyone who wants to portray them as inevitable is wrong. 2015 and 2017 Steph had a much easier path. We do not need Vegas to tell us that though.

Betting odds is a terrible way, but no way the Warriors had an easier path. A healthy Harden/Howard/Ariza/Smith/Terry on the 56 win Rockets team is far better than anything Denver faced. That 55 win Memphis team with Gasol and Randolph was also great. Cleveland snuck in two wins, but it wasn't a complete team even though they had prime LeBron James. The Pelicans teams wasn't very good.

Also, LOL at prime LeBron + prime Irving being "easier" in 2017 than anything Denver faced. Sure, the path wasn't the toughest... but it wasn't the easiest.

Denver had the easiest path to a Finals in modern NBA history and the numbers show that it wasn't even close.

It was easier. It isn't The Cavs vs the teams the Nuggets faced.

The Warriors were way better than the Cavs and every other team, and people thought that for the entire season. The Nuggets were not favored to win the title or do as well as they did.

Competition is relative.

The Warriors were way better than every other team, but the teams they faced were better than the teams the Nuggets faced. Every championship team in the modern era has faced tougher competition than the Nuggets. Even the COVID bubble Lakers.