Lebron vs Curry supporting cast 2016

[lessthanjake]

So much is made about the fact that Cavs beat the 73-9 Warriors while being down 3-1. Some say (Lebron himself too) that this series victory made Lebron the goat.

First off this is ridiculous because lets say if instead of winning by 4 the Cavs lost by 2 would that mean that Lebron wasnt the goat ?

So arguments like this I tend to stay away from

My question is why is beating the Warriors who were just taken to 7 games by a very flawed Thunder team such a huge accomplishment?

I know they won 73 games but is that how we measure teams greatness?

The Raptors won 66 games and got swept in the 2nd round in the 2018 playoffs. No one regards that as a great team

If you look at Lebrons cast (no pun intended) and Stephs cast why is it so clear that Stephs was better ?

Obviously, Kyrie is better than Klay (Take the head case stuff out of it) and Kevin Love is better than Draymond Green (especially in a vacuum). So why is this looked at as Lebron overcoming such a huge obstacle.

Was Steph Currys supporting cast so much, if at all, better?

Sure they had more depth and I suppose you can make a coaching argument but does this out way the Cavs superior top end talent?

The Draymond disrespect is insane. In the POY project here at the time, he finished 5th overall with more second place votes than anyone except for Steph. He was the best defensive player in the league, an excellent secondary playmaker, and he was even drilling his threes at a high rate. He put up 32/15/9 on .955 TS% in Game 7 of the NBA Finals. quote]He was much closer to Steph in value than Kevin freakin’ Love. He’s the best #2 you could possibly have in the league that time. Maybe even ever?

That is ridiculous

If you wanna look at the supporting casts as a whole, when Steph was on the bench, the Warriors had a point differential of +4.6 during the regular season and +6.7 in the playoffs. When LeBron was on the bench, the Cavs had a point differential of -4.3 during the regular season and -6.3 during the playoffs. When LeBron missed games, the Cavs went 1-5. When Steph missed games, the Warriors went 6-3 with most of those games in the playoffs. There was a massive gap in the supporting casts. The Warriors still would have been a top 4 seed in the West even if Steph missed the whole regular season while the Cavs would have had no chance of making the playoffs without LeBron.

This is an interesting point but to me this is more about play style. The Warriors had a great functioning system while the Cavs were all about Lebron. So when Lebron was out it was hard to respond to that. Also the sample size is so small I dont think you can make any serious conclusions. Like obviously the Cavs wouldnt have won 20% of their games without Lebron over a 82 game season and go 16-66.

Your point about playstyle is a very good one, I think. It may be harder to do well when a really heliocentric guy is out, because the team is used to being so focused on playing around that player. Please note, though, that the numbers that that person gave you are completely false. See my above post about that.

[Mikeball]

The Draymond disrespect is insane. In the POY project here at the time, he finished 5th overall with more second place votes than anyone except for Steph. He was the best defensive player in the league, an excellent secondary playmaker, and he was even drilling his threes at a high rate. He put up 32/15/9 on .955 TS% in Game 7 of the NBA Finals. quote]He was much closer to Steph in value than Kevin freakin’ Love. He’s the best #2 you could possibly have in the league that time. Maybe even ever?

That is ridiculous

If you wanna look at the supporting casts as a whole, when Steph was on the bench, the Warriors had a point differential of +4.6 during the regular season and +6.7 in the playoffs. When LeBron was on the bench, the Cavs had a point differential of -4.3 during the regular season and -6.3 during the playoffs. When LeBron missed games, the Cavs went 1-5. When Steph missed games, the Warriors went 6-3 with most of those games in the playoffs. There was a massive gap in the supporting casts. The Warriors still would have been a top 4 seed in the West even if Steph missed the whole regular season while the Cavs would have had no chance of making the playoffs without LeBron.

This is an interesting point but to me this is more about play style. The Warriors had a great functioning system while the Cavs were all about Lebron. So when Lebron was out it was hard to respond to that. Also the sample size is so small I dont think you can make any serious conclusions. Like obviously the Cavs wouldnt have won 20% of their games without Lebron over a 82 game season and go 16-66.

Your point about playstyle is a very good one, I think. It may be harder to do well when a really heliocentric guy is out, because the team is used to being so focused on playing around that player. Please note, though, that the numbers that that person gave you are completely false. See my above post about that.

Exactly. And thanks for pointing out that the numbers were false cause Id have never known.

[lessthanjake]

That is ridiculous



This is an interesting point but to me this is more about play style. The Warriors had a great functioning system while the Cavs were all about Lebron. So when Lebron was out it was hard to respond to that. Also the sample size is so small I dont think you can make any serious conclusions. Like obviously the Cavs wouldnt have won 20% of their games without Lebron over a 82 game season and go 16-66.

Your point about playstyle is a very good one, I think. It may be harder to do well when a really heliocentric guy is out, because the team is used to being so focused on playing around that player. Please note, though, that the numbers that that person gave you are completely false. See my above post about that.

Exactly. And thanks for pointing out that the numbers were false cause Id have never known.

No problem!

I’d further note for people that, even in the KD years, the Warriors were outscored when Steph was on the bench. In those three seasons, they were -0.8 per 100 possessions with Steph off the court in the regular season, and -1.0 per 100 possessions with Steph off the court in the playoffs. And this isn’t from just overlapping minutes with Durant—indeed, the Warriors were substantially positive with Durant off the court in those years. Someone trying to use on-off stats to denigrate Steph is actually pretty wild.

[TheLand13]

Kevin Love being better than Draymond is certainly an opinion.

I dont see how anyone can seriously argue with that.

You see how ineffective Draymond was in 2020 without Curry, Thompson or Durant.

Love is better than Draymond on around 90% of teams I would say

What does that have to do with 2016 where Draymond was a legitimately good third option on offense?

[AEnigma]

Also those numbers on what happened with Steph on the bench are objectively completely false. You said that the Warriors had a point differential of +4.6 during the regular season with Steph off the court. You appear to not understand how to interpret on/off stats, because the actual number is -4.6. Which of course makes an *enormous* difference, and completely vitiates your entire point. And it certainly makes it pretty absurd for you to suggest they “would have been a top 4 seed in the West even if Steph missed the whole regular season.” They actually performed similar to one of the worst few teams in the league when Steph was not playing that season. Meanwhile, the actual number for the playoffs that season was +0.7, not +6.7. Just to make sure you understand this, I’ll take the regular season numbers and explain it to you. As you’ve surely seen, the Warriors were +18.0 per 100 possessions with Steph on the floor. Steph’s on-off was +22.6. That means that the Warriors did 22.6 points per 100 possessions better with Steph on the floor than with him off the floor. And 18.0 - 22.6 = -4.6.

I’d further note for people that, even in the KD years, the Warriors were outscored when Steph was on the bench. In those three seasons, they were -0.8 per 100 possessions with Steph off the court in the regular season, and -1.0 per 100 possessions with Steph off the court in the playoffs. And this isn’t from just overlapping minutes with Durant—indeed, the Warriors were substantially positive with Durant off the court in those years. Someone trying to use on-off stats to denigrate Steph is actually pretty wild.

Lol love the irony of this as an attempt to scold people for “not understanding how to interpret on/off stats”.

There is a difference between how a team performs when you and other starters are off the court, and how it performs when you are staggered with other starters or are otherwise outright absent from the game. Across 2015/16, the Warriors were +10.1 when Draymond was on the court without Steph. Curry was +5.7 without Draymond on the court. Expand it, and Curry looks better, but even then, 2015-19 Draymond is still +4.5 without Curry or Durant on the court.

And of course the Warriors have a +10.3 net rating across 12 playoff games without Steph. +9 in six games in 2016. And even more broadly, when Draymond has been on the court in the postseason without Curry or Durant (whether because they are outright missing or just sitting on the bench), the Warriors have a +8 net rating.

But much easier to pretend that Draymond was a lesser Kevin Love and that the Warriors were some hopeless team without Curry there.

[Mikeball]

Kevin Love being better than Draymond is certainly an opinion.

I dont see how anyone can seriously argue with that.

You see how ineffective Draymond was in 2020 without Curry, Thompson or Durant.

Love is better than Draymond on around 90% of teams I would say

What does that have to do with 2016 where Draymond was a legitimately good third option on offense?

We are comparing players. 2016 Love is better than 2016 Draymond on most teams.

And im saying most to be generous to Draymond.

I understand the fit argument but saying that Love is better than Draymond should not only not be a controversial statement but an obvious one.

[70sFan]

I stopped reading at "Love is better than Green". Another example of people completely ignoring defense and going all about ppg...

You cant seriously think that Draymond Green is a better basketball player than Kevin Love. Stop.

I can and I do. Go trolling somewhere else.