Best and worst volume-scorers throughout NBA history

[wojoaderge]

Surprised that my favorite player didn't make the worst list (although my 2nd favorite did)

[penbeast0]

Thinking about the methodology. This does seem to give an overly large bonus to players for extra scoring who should presumably be shooting less. More intuitive is the TS Added stat.

[WestGOAT]

Hey WestGOAT, I doubt you're seeing this but in the off chance you are I was thinking about making a similar video to what you have posted, obviously crediting you, but I was having a lot of trouble understanding and finding where your math came from.

If anyone can help me understand this posts calculations and where to get them that would be greatly appreciated because I was looking to make one with the 2022-2023 season.

Cheers.

Sure go ahead!

About the calculations, I explained it briefly in the OP, and here is an example for 1969:

Code: Select all

      Year             Player   Tm  Pos    Age  PP100    TS%  PP100Δ   TSΔ  Score
1     1969        Jerry West*  LAL   SG  30.00  28.13  55.69    3.24  1.51   4.75
2     1969         Lou Hudson  ATL   SF  24.00  26.00  53.75    0.58  0.77   1.35
3     1969   Oscar Robertson*  CIN   PG  30.00  23.87  57.89   -1.39  2.60   1.21
4     1969         Bob Boozer  CHI   PF  31.00  25.29  53.96   -0.05  0.85   0.80
5     1969           Bob Rule  SEA    C  24.00  25.88  51.13    0.47 -0.12   0.36
6     1969       Earl Monroe*  BAL   SG  24.00  26.46  49.33    1.02 -0.73   0.28
7     1969     Flynn Robinson  TOT   PG  27.00  26.15  50.12    0.72 -0.46   0.26
8     1969       Zelmo Beaty*  ATL    C  29.00  25.27  52.46   -0.07  0.33   0.26
9     1969      Elgin Baylor*  LAL   SF  34.00  26.17  49.99    0.74 -0.50   0.24
10    1969     Bailey Howell*  BOS   PF  32.00  24.85  53.20   -0.44  0.58   0.14
11    1969       Jeff Mullins  SFW   SG  26.00  24.95  51.72   -0.35  0.08  -0.27
12    1969  Billy Cunningham*  PHI   PF  25.00  24.24  49.18   -1.01 -0.78  -1.79
13    1969       Elvin Hayes*  SDR    C  23.00  24.42  48.27   -0.84 -1.12  -1.95
14    1969         Dave Bing*  DET   PG  25.00  24.34  48.18   -0.91 -1.15  -2.06
15    1969     Gail Goodrich*  PHO   PG  25.00  24.19  47.38   -1.06 -1.47  -2.53
mean   NaN                NaN  NaN  NaN  27.27  25.35  51.48    0.04  0.03   0.07
std    NaN                NaN  NaN  NaN   3.45   1.14   3.00    1.17  1.11   1.78

From what I remember, I did this for all years <1974: I approximated points per 100 possessions (PP100) by cross-referencing (1) total points scores and total number of minutes played in a season for a player (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1969_totals.html) and (2) and adjusting it by respective pace played by their team (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1969.html#advanced-team.)

For >1974 onwards, basketball reference has per 100 poss stats for each player per season, which I could simply retrieve: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1975_per_poss.html

So let's look at1969, for which I selected the top 15 PP100 players as the sample for that year, and then calculated their TS%.
From there, I calculated the standard deviation in the sample and then quantified the difference for a player compared to the rest of the sample in the number of standard deviations (Δ) .

For example Jerry West had a PP100 of 28.13, while the mean was 25.35.
For simplicity sake, let's use the standard deviation of the entire sample, so in this case it's 1.14.
28.13 - 25.35 = 2.78
2.78 / 1.14 = 2.4 number of standard deviations difference (Δ)

Now if you look closely in the table it's actually 3.24. That's because I actually exclude the player of interest when I calculate the mean (average) and standard deviation, so for Jerry West I excluded him from the sample, so the mean is actually lower without him and probably the standard deviations is also lower. This way Jerry's West's own stats don't "suppress" the standard deviation differences.

Thinking about the methodology. This does seem to give an overly large bonus to players for extra scoring who should presumably be shooting less. More intuitive is the TS Added stat.

I didn't perse looked at TS Added, but instead of using PP100 as a cut-off to select players, I used total Trueshooting Attempts (TSA), also this is to focus on volume-scoring. TS Added you still have players like old-man Wilt and Gobert popping up if I recall well enough. I'm actually sitting on this and visualizations cause I can't be arsed yet to share.

[Doctor MJ]

As I look at my old spreadsheet and bkref, I note that what seemed like an untouchable record looks like it's about to fall.

Elvin Hayes -1138.4
Russell Westbrook -1098.4

Westbrook needs only -40 TS Add to fall below Hayes.
Westbrook hasn't had a season better than -40 TS Add since '16-17.

[henshao]

Damn that Amar'e was something special there for a minute

[penbeast0]

As I look at my old spreadsheet and bkref, I note that what seemed like an untouchable record looks like it's about to fall.

Elvin Hayes -1138.4
Russell Westbrook -1098.4

Westbrook needs only -40 TS Add to fall below Hayes.
Westbrook hasn't had a season better than -40 TS Add since '16-17.

Can you list top 10 and bottom top career values for TS ADD so we can compare?

[Doctor MJ]

As I look at my old spreadsheet and bkref, I note that what seemed like an untouchable record looks like it's about to fall.

Elvin Hayes -1138.4
Russell Westbrook -1098.4

Westbrook needs only -40 TS Add to fall below Hayes.
Westbrook hasn't had a season better than -40 TS Add since '16-17.

Can you list top 10 and bottom top career values for TS ADD so we can compare?

I can try. bkref doesn't have this in a query, so this is hand done.

Best:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar +4718.8
2. Artis Gilmore +3880.0
3. Wilt Chamberlain +3587.0
4. Oscar Robertson +3519.5
5. Reggie Miller +3449.8
6.Kevin Durant +3111.7
7. Adrian Dantley +3109.7
8. Charles Barkley +2972.9
9. Karl Malone +2913.8
10. LeBron James +2839.5

Worst - this is where I'm realizing the bigger problem is, because the list we made before was focused on Top 100 candidates. I've now added a few names to the list, and I fear there are bound to be more.

1. Antoine Walker -1306.7
2. Elvin Hayes -1138.4
3. Russell Westbrook -1098.4
4. Mookie Blaylock -1061.3
5. Ish Smith -929.3
6. Fat Lever -879.3
7. Josh Smith -876.3
8. Jason Kidd -806.5
9. Nate Thurmond -790.7
10. Isiah Thomas -771.5

So yeah, as I looked at my list with Hayes at the bottom, it occurred to me to check Walker, and sure enough, he tops Hayes. In general the magnitudes here are small because the very worst scorers don't get a chance to shoot like Kareem, but you can still see how someone who sticks around long enough like Ish Smith can enter the pantheon.

[penbeast0]

As I look at my old spreadsheet and bkref, I note that what seemed like an untouchable record looks like it's about to fall.

Elvin Hayes -1138.4
Russell Westbrook -1098.4

Westbrook needs only -40 TS Add to fall below Hayes.
Westbrook hasn't had a season better than -40 TS Add since '16-17.

Can you list top 10 and bottom top career values for TS ADD so we can compare?

I can try. bkref doesn't have this in a query, so this is hand done.

Best:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar +4718.8
2. Artis Gilmore +3880.0
3. Wilt Chamberlain +3587.0
4. Oscar Robertson +3519.5
5. Reggie Miller +3449.8
6.Kevin Durant +3111.7
7. Adrian Dantley +3109.7
8. Charles Barkley +2972.9
9. Karl Malone +2913.8
10. LeBron James +2839.5

Worst - this is where I'm realizing the bigger problem is, because the list we made before was focused on Top 100 candidates. I've now added a few names to the list, and I fear there are bound to be more.

1. Antoine Walker -1306.7
2. Elvin Hayes -1138.4
3. Russell Westbrook -1098.4
4. Mookie Blaylock -1061.3
5. Ish Smith -929.3
6. Fat Lever -879.3
7. Josh Smith -876.3
8. Jason Kidd -806.5
9. Nate Thurmond -790.7
10. Isiah Thomas -771.5

So yeah, as I looked at my list with Hayes at the bottom, it occurred to me to check Walker, and sure enough, he tops Hayes. In general the magnitudes here are small because the very worst scorers don't get a chance to shoot like Kareem, but you can still see how someone who sticks around long enough like Ish Smith can enter the pantheon.

Wow, Ish Smith made the list! I did NOT see that coming. And Iverson didn't make it. Otherwise, other than Fat Lever, the rest are a who's who of stars who are frequently called inefficient.

I would love to see a fantasy team roll out with Thurmond, Hayes, Antoine Walker, Mookie, and Westbrook with Josh and Ish Smith leading the bench.

[ZeppelinPage]

As I look at my old spreadsheet and bkref, I note that what seemed like an untouchable record looks like it's about to fall.

Elvin Hayes -1138.4
Russell Westbrook -1098.4

Westbrook needs only -40 TS Add to fall below Hayes.
Westbrook hasn't had a season better than -40 TS Add since '16-17.

Can you list top 10 and bottom top career values for TS ADD so we can compare?

I can try. bkref doesn't have this in a query, so this is hand done.

Best:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar +4718.8
2. Artis Gilmore +3880.0
3. Wilt Chamberlain +3587.0
4. Oscar Robertson +3519.5
5. Reggie Miller +3449.8
6.Kevin Durant +3111.7
7. Adrian Dantley +3109.7
8. Charles Barkley +2972.9
9. Karl Malone +2913.8
10. LeBron James +2839.5

Worst - this is where I'm realizing the bigger problem is, because the list we made before was focused on Top 100 candidates. I've now added a few names to the list, and I fear there are bound to be more.

1. Antoine Walker -1306.7
2. Elvin Hayes -1138.4
3. Russell Westbrook -1098.4
4. Mookie Blaylock -1061.3
5. Ish Smith -929.3
6. Fat Lever -879.3
7. Josh Smith -876.3
8. Jason Kidd -806.5
9. Nate Thurmond -790.7
10. Isiah Thomas -771.5

So yeah, as I looked at my list with Hayes at the bottom, it occurred to me to check Walker, and sure enough, he tops Hayes. In general the magnitudes here are small because the very worst scorers don't get a chance to shoot like Kareem, but you can still see how someone who sticks around long enough like Ish Smith can enter the pantheon.

I believe Guy Rodgers holds the top spot for career with an impressive -1397.1.

[70sFan]

Can you list top 10 and bottom top career values for TS ADD so we can compare?

I can try. bkref doesn't have this in a query, so this is hand done.

Best:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar +4718.8
2. Artis Gilmore +3880.0
3. Wilt Chamberlain +3587.0
4. Oscar Robertson +3519.5
5. Reggie Miller +3449.8
6.Kevin Durant +3111.7
7. Adrian Dantley +3109.7
8. Charles Barkley +2972.9
9. Karl Malone +2913.8
10. LeBron James +2839.5

Worst - this is where I'm realizing the bigger problem is, because the list we made before was focused on Top 100 candidates. I've now added a few names to the list, and I fear there are bound to be more.

1. Antoine Walker -1306.7
2. Elvin Hayes -1138.4
3. Russell Westbrook -1098.4
4. Mookie Blaylock -1061.3
5. Ish Smith -929.3
6. Fat Lever -879.3
7. Josh Smith -876.3
8. Jason Kidd -806.5
9. Nate Thurmond -790.7
10. Isiah Thomas -771.5

So yeah, as I looked at my list with Hayes at the bottom, it occurred to me to check Walker, and sure enough, he tops Hayes. In general the magnitudes here are small because the very worst scorers don't get a chance to shoot like Kareem, but you can still see how someone who sticks around long enough like Ish Smith can enter the pantheon.

I believe Guy Rodgers holds the top spot for career with an impressive -1397.1.

I remember the old times when I started to learn more about the 1960s basketball. Guy Rodgers was often compared to Bob Cousy by many accounts, but as the time went on I see how massive the difference between these two was. Even old Cousy who clearly lost a step in 1959-63 period got better of Rodgers in TS ADD with twice as small negative value. Rodgers might have been the most overrated player of that era, he was a great passer and ball-handler, but I doubt he was ever a positive offensive player (without being anything special defensively either).

[70sFan]

Woody Saulsberry with an impressive -1326.4 also has the spot.

[penbeast0]

And yet one of the things you will read about Sauldsberry is that he was relegated to a defensive role and not allowed to be the star he should have because of his race. He could have been . . . the Antoine Walker of the 1960s!

[70sFan]

And yet one of the things you will read about Sauldsberry is that he was relegated to a defensive role and not allowed to be the star he should have because of his race. He could have been . . . the Antoine Walker of the 1960s!

Yeah, without questioning racial issues that existed back in the 1950s and the beginning of the 1960s, I always take such stories with a grain of salt...

[ZeppelinPage]

I remember the old times when I started to learn more about the 1960s basketball. Guy Rodgers was often compared to Bob Cousy by many accounts, but as the time went on I see how massive the difference between these two was. Even old Cousy who clearly lost a step in 1959-63 period got better of Rodgers in TS ADD with twice as small negative value. Rodgers might have been the most overrated player of that era, he was a great passer and ball-handler, but I doubt he was ever a positive offensive player (without being anything special defensively either).

Yeah, what's funny is that if you go through his career and look at whenever he joins a new team, their offense rating just completely tanks. I've found a newspaper article with Auerbach basically scoffing at the idea of Rodgers being like Cousy.

He can definitely make good passes but he lacks as a scoring threat. When Frank McGuire joined the Warriors he told him to stop shooting the ball and tried to limit his shots. What's so unremarkable about his game is that he not only shoots poorly from the field and line but he also has an atrocious free throw rate, which tells me he wasn't going to the rim and collapsing the defense like a guard with any passing talent should be trying to do.

[Doctor MJ]

Can you list top 10 and bottom top career values for TS ADD so we can compare?

I can try. bkref doesn't have this in a query, so this is hand done.

Best:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar +4718.8
2. Artis Gilmore +3880.0
3. Wilt Chamberlain +3587.0
4. Oscar Robertson +3519.5
5. Reggie Miller +3449.8
6.Kevin Durant +3111.7
7. Adrian Dantley +3109.7
8. Charles Barkley +2972.9
9. Karl Malone +2913.8
10. LeBron James +2839.5

Worst - this is where I'm realizing the bigger problem is, because the list we made before was focused on Top 100 candidates. I've now added a few names to the list, and I fear there are bound to be more.

1. Antoine Walker -1306.7
2. Elvin Hayes -1138.4
3. Russell Westbrook -1098.4
4. Mookie Blaylock -1061.3
5. Ish Smith -929.3
6. Fat Lever -879.3
7. Josh Smith -876.3
8. Jason Kidd -806.5
9. Nate Thurmond -790.7
10. Isiah Thomas -771.5

So yeah, as I looked at my list with Hayes at the bottom, it occurred to me to check Walker, and sure enough, he tops Hayes. In general the magnitudes here are small because the very worst scorers don't get a chance to shoot like Kareem, but you can still see how someone who sticks around long enough like Ish Smith can enter the pantheon.

I believe Guy Rodgers holds the top spot for career with an impressive -1397.1.

Wow, yeah clearly this Worst list of mine is far from complete.

[homecourtloss]

Can you list top 10 and bottom top career values for TS ADD so we can compare?

I can try. bkref doesn't have this in a query, so this is hand done.

Best:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar +4718.8
2. Artis Gilmore +3880.0
3. Wilt Chamberlain +3587.0
4. Oscar Robertson +3519.5
5. Reggie Miller +3449.8
6.Kevin Durant +3111.7
7. Adrian Dantley +3109.7
8. Charles Barkley +2972.9
9. Karl Malone +2913.8
10. LeBron James +2839.5

Worst - this is where I'm realizing the bigger problem is, because the list we made before was focused on Top 100 candidates. I've now added a few names to the list, and I fear there are bound to be more.

1. Antoine Walker -1306.7
2. Elvin Hayes -1138.4
3. Russell Westbrook -1098.4
4. Mookie Blaylock -1061.3
5. Ish Smith -929.3
6. Fat Lever -879.3
7. Josh Smith -876.3
8. Jason Kidd -806.5
9. Nate Thurmond -790.7
10. Isiah Thomas -771.5

So yeah, as I looked at my list with Hayes at the bottom, it occurred to me to check Walker, and sure enough, he tops Hayes. In general the magnitudes here are small because the very worst scorers don't get a chance to shoot like Kareem, but you can still see how someone who sticks around long enough like Ish Smith can enter the pantheon.

Wow, Ish Smith made the list! I did NOT see that coming. And Iverson didn't make it. Otherwise, other than Fat Lever, the rest are a who's who of stars who are frequently called inefficient.

I would love to see a fantasy team roll out with Thurmond, Hayes, Antoine Walker, Mookie, and Westbrook with Josh and Ish Smith leading the bench.

A. Walker’s record may stand forever because in todays game, a non-defense playing chucker will not be allowed to do what he did for all these years. Actually, even a defense playing player will not be allowed to chuck this way.

Edit: just read post above — Rodgers’ record will stand forever.

[Doctor MJ]

I can try. bkref doesn't have this in a query, so this is hand done.

Best:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar +4718.8
2. Artis Gilmore +3880.0
3. Wilt Chamberlain +3587.0
4. Oscar Robertson +3519.5
5. Reggie Miller +3449.8
6.Kevin Durant +3111.7
7. Adrian Dantley +3109.7
8. Charles Barkley +2972.9
9. Karl Malone +2913.8
10. LeBron James +2839.5

Worst - this is where I'm realizing the bigger problem is, because the list we made before was focused on Top 100 candidates. I've now added a few names to the list, and I fear there are bound to be more.

1. Antoine Walker -1306.7
2. Elvin Hayes -1138.4
3. Russell Westbrook -1098.4
4. Mookie Blaylock -1061.3
5. Ish Smith -929.3
6. Fat Lever -879.3
7. Josh Smith -876.3
8. Jason Kidd -806.5
9. Nate Thurmond -790.7
10. Isiah Thomas -771.5

So yeah, as I looked at my list with Hayes at the bottom, it occurred to me to check Walker, and sure enough, he tops Hayes. In general the magnitudes here are small because the very worst scorers don't get a chance to shoot like Kareem, but you can still see how someone who sticks around long enough like Ish Smith can enter the pantheon.

Wow, Ish Smith made the list! I did NOT see that coming. And Iverson didn't make it. Otherwise, other than Fat Lever, the rest are a who's who of stars who are frequently called inefficient.

I would love to see a fantasy team roll out with Thurmond, Hayes, Antoine Walker, Mookie, and Westbrook with Josh and Ish Smith leading the bench.

A. Walker’s record may stand forever because in todays game, a non-defense playing chucker will not be allowed to do what he did for all these years. Actually, even a defense playing player will not be allowed to chuck this way.

Edit: just read post above — Rodgers’ record will stand forever.

That logic makes sense, but Westbrook has had -150 TS Add or worse each of the last 3 seasons, and if he does it twice more, he'll break that record. It's within reach!

But I'd say that if Westbrook can't break it, nobody can going forward, for the reasons you gave.
Westbrook is the Cal Ripken of shot-missing, and we're waiting to see if he can last to match his Lou Gehrig.

[nkclouted]

......