RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar)

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#141 » by rk2023 » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:21 pm

Making the Case for Michael Jordan with provided information:

Credit to Thinking Basketball, Squared2020, and various great RealGM posters for quantitative / qualitative info drawn from.

Being very arguably the most popular basketball figure / superstar in history, Jordan makes (in my opinion cements) a remarkable Mt. Rushmore case for himself analytically and pragmatically - which I hope to lay out, rather than a lot of "vibes"-based arguments which less nuanced fans usually present. While I am not the highest on the room on his first three seasons (his Wizards years as well obviously, more on both to come), I believe 1988 was when most of the foundation of Jordan's prime basketball ability came together - with incremental offensive changes & tweaks present up until his peak of 1990/91. While his overall baseline of efficiency marginally declined (and defense took a step down) after that, the polished skill-set still made him all-time in that regard before Jordan's first retirement. After coming back in 1996, Jordan's floor-raising ability declined - but he excelled as the offensive centerpiece [due to his scoring and phenomenal turnover economy] on two GOAT-level teams and one final all-time team.

When looking at the Box-Score, here's how Jordan fares in Thinking Basketball's model from 1988-93:

Spoiler:
- Regular Season: 32.1 Adj. Points / 75 on 6.0% rTS (2.3 ScoreVal), 6.6 Passer Rating, 8.9 Box Creation, 51.2 O-Load, 8.2 BPM, 7.6 PIPM

- Playoffs: 34.5 Adj. Points / 75 on +5.9% rTS (2.5 ScoreVal), 7.0 Passer Rating, 12.4 Box Creation, 57.3 O-Load, 9.3 BPM


Same logic for 1996-98 in what I would classify a different role:

Spoiler:
- Regular Season: 32.1 Adj. Points / 75 on 2.7% rTS (1.8 ScoreVal), 6.0 Passer Rating, 7.3 Box Creation, 50.1 O-Load, 6.4 BPM, 6.0 PIPM

- Playoffs: 33.9 Adj. Points / 75 on +2.1% rTS (1.9 ScoreVal), 6.1 Passer Rating, 8.0 Box Creation, 52.2 O-Load, 7.5 BPM


For some more context, here's how this looked against different opponents (h/t 70sFan):

Spoiler:
1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


Of-course, all of that - unfortunately - isn't complemented by a slate of impact metrics. Courtesy of Ben (again), there is some +/- and on-off tracking from the Playoffs however (listed in rough estimates). Take it for what you would like to, I have linked the video as well:



Spoiler:
1988-90: +3 net rating on-court, 23 on/off
1989-91: +8 net rating on-court, 21 on/off
1990-92: +9 net-rating on-court, 13 on/off
1991-93: +9 net-rating on-court, 8 on/off
1996: +13 net-rating on-court, 16 on/off
1997: +8 net-rating on-court, 21 on/off
1998: +9 net-rating on-court, 12 on/off


When eye-balling all of this, the play-by-play differences and potency signal more of a 'top-tier all time' lift rather than the outlier the box score and derivations of it (eg. BBRef) may make MJ's value to be.

Using some data from the Top-100 teams effort as well as Thinking Basketball, the offensive results present a similar story.

Sansterre's Project - worth noting the 90s Bulls are 5 out of the top 20 teams and 2 of the top 4:
Spoiler:
1991 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 61-21, Regular Season SRS: +8.57 (14th), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +6.7 (11th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -2.7 (64th)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +6.48 (36th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -7.92 (18th)
Playoff SRS: +15.73 (6th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +6.38 (3rd)
Shooting Advantage: +6.2%, Possession Advantage: -1.7 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.92 (28th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -1.18 (69th)

1992 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 67-15, Regular Season SRS: +10.07 (9th), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +7.3 (6th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -3.7 (49th)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +6.0 (44th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -5.15 (48th)
Playoff SRS: +11.75 (34th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +1.09 (80th)
Shooting Advantage: +2.3%, Possession Advantage: +1.5 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.25 (56th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -2.00 (51st)

1993 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 57-25, Regular Season SRS: +6.19 (68th), Earned the 2 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +4.9 (34th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -1.9 (75th)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +8.91 (12th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -2.97 (75th)
Playoff SRS: +10.08 (62nd), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +2.41 (49th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.27 (55th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -3.11 (26th)

1996 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 72-10, Regular Season SRS: +11.80 (2nd), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +7.6 (4th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -5.8 (19th)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +7.66 (23rd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -9.45 (7th)
Playoff SRS: +16.60 (4th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +2.91 (40th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +1.25 (74th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -3.76 (13th)

1997 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 69-13, Regular Season SRS: +10.70 (5th), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +7.7 (3rd), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -4.3 (33rd)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +5.40 (53rd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -7.66 (21st)
Playoff SRS: +11.74 (35th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +0.64 (89th)
Shooting Advantage: +0.0%, Possession Advantage: +7.3 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.66 (37th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -3.90 (9th)

1998 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 62-20, Regular Season SRS: +7.24 (37th), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +2.7 (66th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -5.2 (25th)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +5.42 (52nd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -8.00 (17th)
Playoff SRS: +12.99 (27th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +3.69 (27th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +4.40 (4th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -0.72 (79th)


Spoiler:
Using Thinking Basketball's rORTG adjustments, the Jordan-era Bulls (in 3-year increments - where 1989 = 1987-89 seasons) percentiles in team offenses for the RS/PS are as follows:

Spoiler:
- 1989: 62nd, 39th
- 1990: 77th, 49th
- 1991: 94th, 87th
- 1992: 99th, 93th
- 1993: 99th, 97th
- 1994: 93rd, 95th
- 1995: 76th, 95th
- 1996: 86th, 93rd
- 1997: 98th, 88th
- 1998: 99th, 89th


With these pieces of the puzzle, here's my verdict:

Jordan had the talent and the raw-offensive ability to be deployed as an excellent floor-raiser of sub-par talent as he broke into his own as a player. When assessing 1988 and 1989 (the pre-triangle, Monster O-Load phase) at or around his apex, I don't think the hero-ball was too much of a problem specific to situation - but 1985-88 in whole paints a different story:
From 1985-88, he created shots for teammates only slightly more than he passed them over (6 plays per 100, in line with his traditional box creation estimate).3 His wild forays into multiple defenders yielded a woeful efficiency of 0.59 points per attempt on such plays.


When looking at 1985-87 (which I see as a more valid and prominent explaining factor of the offensive bottlenecks and coupled with negative value on defense due to little discipline), it's hard to see 1985 over an All-NBA level and 1987 over a fringe-MVP level.

His defense was better in 1988 and 1989 due to better athleticism and motor (even with his well-known gambling errors), but the reason I take 1990 and 1991 as his best seasons are due to the ideal combination of defense/connective-skills/heliocentric floor-raising.

When Phil Jackson arrived in 1990 and installed the triangle, Jordan’s habit of shooting into heavy coverage dissipated. (He settled at around 2 missed creations per 100 for the rest of his career, comparable to career rates from LeBron.) But suboptimal court vision isn’t easily correctable and myopia sometimes limited the value of his passes. Not all creation is equal either, and Jordan was inconsistent in finding the high-value spots on the court. In over 1,100 offensive possessions tracked, MJ hit over 2 “good” passes per 100 with a passing profile slightly behind Dwyane Wade’s and Kobe Bryant’s. During the Jackson years, his passing capability didn’t change much, per se. His decision-making simply improved. Jordan replaced difficult, low efficiency shots with setups for open teammates, bumping his own efficiency and creation rates in the process.4 As he upgraded his floor game, MJ morphed into an elite creator, posting rates in the 94th to 98th historical percentile between 1989 and 1997.


As I stated earlier, the efficiency of mega-creator Jordan declined in 1992/93 along with his defense doing the same - leading me to rank the years as follows: 91 >= 90, 89, 92, 88, 93. I see the top 3 years as "GOAT" caliber, 88/92 as "Fringe-GOAT", and 93 as "All-Time".

When looking at his retirement, the Bulls added a few pieces amidst a defensive slant. In 1994, they accrued a 2.74 SRS flanked by a -3.6 rDRTG and -.2 rORTG. In 1995, they accrued a 4.7 net rating (109.6-105) in 65 games without Jordan and a 7.5 net rating in 17 games with (112.8-105.3) - keep in mind this being a more rusty Jordan. Comparing to the 1990-93 Bulls roster, what I can most grasp is that the Bulls had enough of a safety net to stay afloat through defense while ~treading water on offense - in alignment with the progression in on/off data presented by Ben & TB's team. Furthermore, Jordan's defense heading into the first retirement was shown to be replace-able while the offense was something much more worthwhile to hold on-to. Furthermore:

In 1995, before his return, Chicago chugged along at +1.2 for 63 games (playing at a 52-win pace), reinforcing the team’s competence but also highlighting Jordan’s value — lifting slightly above average offenses by 5 or 6 points is GOAT-worthy. After nearly two seasons off, MJ (posting a cringeworthy -2.6 percent rTS) lifted the ’95 team’s offense to +4.3 in his 27 games (at a 59-win pace). Again, the turnovers declined, down to 12.1 percent from 14.6. Even an oxidized Jordan made an impact.


From 1996-98, Jordan's playmaking responsibilities declined decently so, he remained a stout volume scorer but on less efficiency, and his motor/athleticism were worse - dialing him into a more cerebral, but less effective (still incredible - where I would say 96-98 is the premier shooting guard slate of seasons all time) role on both sides. The Bulls emphasis on rebounding, defense, skill-set versatility, shooting, movement (all catalyzed by Jordan's floor/ceiling raising hybrid - great TOV/cTOV% like almost all of his career, releases valve scoring, offensive rebounding, and movement) - they reached the heights he did. With the box and impact profiles available, it's very hard to find an argument for 96-98 Jordan being the same caliber player he was at his magnum opus(es). The resiliency against elite and formidable PS defenses tells a similar story as well. With the information provided, my guesstimate is that 1996 was an "All-Time" season, 1997 in between All-Time and MVP (I'll go fringe here), and 1998 an MVP effort.

Some further impact snippets from this second three-peat:
The adjusted game-level data we have on Jordan echoes the common sentiment that he’s one of the most valuable players ever; he’s right at the top of these three studies with an average per-game value of +8.2. We only have two years of adjusted plus-minus (APM) at the end of his career and another year of Augmented plus-minus (AuPM), both of which paint Jordan as an elite and consistent player, but not a sui generis force; Jordan’s scaled adjusted plus-minus figures from 1996-98 (about +6.5) all fall in the 98th percentile for seasons on record.


Augmented +/-:
7.4, 5.2, 4.3

Scaled APM values (a CORP estimate) for 1997/98 come out to be a 5.5 and 5.1 level respectively.

A further assessment I wrote on a past thread regarding the 97/98 Bulls:
Spoiler:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2273425&p=104825395&hilit=harper#p104825395


Even with the high ends and what I feel to be a substantial argument for GOAT peak/prime in Jordan's favor, why I see him as career #3 all-time is due to the meaningful longevity/prime quality and overall longevity aspects. I haven't finalized intel for my pool aside from my Mt. Rushmore / GOAT candidates yet, but James & Jabbar (even Russell) both have more MVP+ level seasons - and better supporting years when factoring in the full body of work.

Anyways, I hope you all enjoyed my reasoning. Had a free day today before a mini-trip, so felt the whim to make an exception and dive in this deep. Cheers. :D
Mogspan wrote:I think they see the super rare combo of high IQ with freakish athleticism and overrate the former a bit, kind of like a hot girl who is rather articulate being thought of as “super smart.” I don’t know kind of a weird analogy, but you catch my drift.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#142 » by iggymcfrack » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:26 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:I mean, honestly the arguments for Kareem > Jordan are more convincing than the arguments for Kareem > Duncan.

Well yeah. The former is a near-slam dunk(that does not mean it is certain, simply I don't see much of an avenue for positive "counter-cases" as far as era-relative impact goes)

The latter is merely "solid"(Jordan's teams did peak substantially higher, his prime was longer, sustained relative separation thanks to expansion, ect)

But I do not see a consistent argument that puts Jordan over both besides "rings in x years" in which case Russell still looms. And I will say, with an era-relative frame, Jordan being "more impactful" than Kareem is borderline indefensible(again, the idea here is not that there's no chance, but that you can't really make the case it's "likely"). And if it really wasn't, I do not think people would bother bringing up 1979 and 1976(which still look better than 86, 95, 97, and Washington by the impact).
I’m starting to think maybe I should re-consider moving Duncan up a spot on my list from #3 to #2. He was a lot more consistent winner than Mike and he certainly had a HUGE longevity edge. I guess the only thing that might give me pause is we have actual impact data numbers on Duncan and while very good, they’re not the tippy top you’d expect for a #2 all-time. Oh, and it’s funny you say that to me about Giannis because I literally have him #10 all-time. I think I was the only one who voted him in the top 10 last time there was a group ranking thing a few months ago.

Honestly,
Image
Do you have a reason to think Kareem wasn't already more impactful in his 2nd-year?

I do respect the Giannis-love though
ty 4191 wrote:
League quality in the 1970’s compared to other decades is something that nobody here wants to- or is willing to- discuss objectively, and comprehensively….

Au contraire, multiple voters have specifically cited the 70's being weak as justification for voting Kareem lower. What I have yet to see is that sort of "objective or comprehensive" justification being used for the 90's relative to more recent players...


Second year Kareem looks fantastic. The first 3 years really. I’m still not quite sure if he just peaked early and then rode Magic for rings though. I will say that one definite takeaway from this project though is that Jordan’s moving out of my first tier which will now be LeBron alone. He’s firmly in Tier 2 now with Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, and KG.

It’s funny because the exact arguments I shoot down in the LeBron/Jordan debates are the same ones I tend to come back to in the Jordan/Kareem debate. I guess it seems like there’s something to the idea that Jordan maxed out on the “rings he was supposed to win” and left early in large part due to that reason so it feels like if you’re going to pass him you should at least have one year you led the weak supporting cast that wasn’t supposed to win like LeBron in 2016 or Duncan in 2003 which Kareem never did.

Also, I was kinda focusing on the years that Kareem’s team seemed closest in shooting holes in his case before but I definitely didn’t mention his worst playoffs. What about ‘73? That was a 60 win Bucks team that should have been favorites and he had a 17.7 PER on .447 TS in a 6 game first round loss. In ‘78, he had a 21.9 PER and a 3.7 BPM on .526 TS% in a first round sweep. I definitely think there are some holes in his resume when he should have been at his peak.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#143 » by lessthanjake » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:30 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
eminence wrote:The leagues merged in 77.

Yeah. I was looking at the year it was "approved" by congress.

Were there any ABA teams who would have made for better competition than the wilt-west Lakers or the 74 Celtics?


I guess to me I’m not primarily concerned specifically with whether it would’ve made it more difficult to win a title. It probably would have, but we mostly have no idea what would’ve happened if that talent had all been in the NBA. Would a team like the 1974 Nets with Dr. J have been more difficult to beat than the 1974 Celtics? Maybe. But in a world with no ABA, would there have even been a Nets team? Probably not. There may have been team expansion but it very likely would’ve happened completely differently. What we do know is that the overall talent in the league would’ve been substantially higher. Maybe/probably Kareem’s teams would’ve ended up more talented too, and so I don’t know that we can say for sure that a more talented league would make it harder for Kareem’s teams to win. What I think we *can* say is that a more talented league would’ve made it harder for Kareem to dominate individually or to make quite as big of an impact for his team, since the average players matched up onto him would’ve been better and so the average gap he’d have on his opponents would be lower.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#144 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:31 pm

One_and_Done wrote:Kareem leading with 6 votes out of 15 so far. I assume if no candidate has a majority then we go to preferences? Or can you win with a plurality, and 2nd preferences only matter for a tie?


My intention:

If majority -> winner.
If plurality, apply 2nd vote for run off. At that point, plurality -> winner.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#145 » by rk2023 » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:34 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Kareem leading with 6 votes out of 15 so far. I assume if no candidate has a majority then we go to preferences? Or can you win with a plurality, and 2nd preferences only matter for a tie?


My intention:

If majority -> winner.
If plurality, apply 2nd vote for run off. At that point, plurality -> winner.


For OaD, any idea how the votes are distributed? I haven't been checking in for updates as much as #1 through this iteration quite yet.
Mogspan wrote:I think they see the super rare combo of high IQ with freakish athleticism and overrate the former a bit, kind of like a hot girl who is rather articulate being thought of as “super smart.” I don’t know kind of a weird analogy, but you catch my drift.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#146 » by OhayoKD » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:38 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Kareem leading with 6 votes out of 15 so far. I assume if no candidate has a majority then we go to preferences? Or can you win with a plurality, and 2nd preferences only matter for a tie?


My intention:

If majority -> winner.
If plurality, apply 2nd vote for run off. At that point, plurality -> winner.

Duncan's overperformance is complicating the picture but I understand run-offs are tricky logistically. Fortunately both my picks are likely to be in direct contention so it's not a personal issue per-say
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#147 » by OhayoKD » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:45 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:

Well yeah. The former is a near-slam dunk(that does not mean it is certain, simply I don't see much of an avenue for positive "counter-cases" as far as era-relative impact goes)

The latter is merely "solid"(Jordan's teams did peak substantially higher, his prime was longer, sustained relative separation thanks to expansion, ect)

But I do not see a consistent argument that puts Jordan over both besides "rings in x years" in which case Russell still looms. And I will say, with an era-relative frame, Jordan being "more impactful" than Kareem is borderline indefensible(again, the idea here is not that there's no chance, but that you can't really make the case it's "likely"). And if it really wasn't, I do not think people would bother bringing up 1979 and 1976(which still look better than 86, 95, 97, and Washington by the impact).
I’m starting to think maybe I should re-consider moving Duncan up a spot on my list from #3 to #2. He was a lot more consistent winner than Mike and he certainly had a HUGE longevity edge. I guess the only thing that might give me pause is we have actual impact data numbers on Duncan and while very good, they’re not the tippy top you’d expect for a #2 all-time. Oh, and it’s funny you say that to me about Giannis because I literally have him #10 all-time. I think I was the only one who voted him in the top 10 last time there was a group ranking thing a few months ago.

Honestly,
Image
Do you have a reason to think Kareem wasn't already more impactful in his 2nd-year?

I do respect the Giannis-love though
ty 4191 wrote:
League quality in the 1970’s compared to other decades is something that nobody here wants to- or is willing to- discuss objectively, and comprehensively….

Au contraire, multiple voters have specifically cited the 70's being weak as justification for voting Kareem lower. What I have yet to see is that sort of "objective or comprehensive" justification being used for the 90's relative to more recent players...


Second year Kareem looks fantastic. The first 3 years really. I’m still not quite sure if he just peaked early and then rode Magic for rings though. I will say that one definite takeaway from this project though is that Jordan’s moving out of my first tier which will now be LeBron alone. He’s firmly in Tier 2 now with Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, and KG.

It’s funny because the exact arguments I shoot down in the LeBron/Jordan debates are the same ones I tend to come back to in the Jordan/Kareem debate. I guess it seems like there’s something to the idea that Jordan maxed out on the “rings he was supposed to win” and left early in large part due to that reason so it feels like if you’re going to pass him you should at least have one year you led the weak supporting cast that wasn’t supposed to win like LeBron in 2016 or Duncan in 2003 which Kareem never did.

Also, I was kinda focusing on the years that Kareem’s team seemed closest in shooting holes in his case before but I definitely didn’t mention his worst playoffs. What about ‘73? That was a 60 win Bucks team that should have been favorites and he had a 17.7 PER on .447 TS in a 6 game first round loss. In ‘78, he had a 21.9 PER and a 3.7 BPM on .526 TS% in a first round sweep. I definitely think there are some holes in his resume when he should have been at his peak.

Re: 1973:
Getting back to the broad-strokes, at least in terms of "value", 77 is not a one-off. By impact, that generous peak mark for Mike is also matched by or within range of
1975(suppressed)
1970(inflated, expansion)
and while there is no off, the Lakers also post higher full-strength marks in 78 and 79.

That does not include 1974(considered by 70's as to be one of two "peak" years) where the Bucks played at a 61-win pace(the next closest team was at +4) despite dandrige and Oscar fading(injuries started the slide in 1972) before dropping 32/12/5 to come within a game of a championship with Oscar averaging 7 points less than he did in 1971 on worse efficiency.

It is quite possible, that for the larger part of a decade, Kareem was, generally, as valuable Jordan at his best. That may not have always mantained in the postseason, but just as there were years he may have folded(1973), there were probably more years where he elevated(72, 74, 77, 80). As Kareem is generally more valuable, as indicated by pretty much all the available "impact" signals, and predicted by the points/assumptions that started this post, it stands to reason that whenever he fluctuates up("peaks") he's probably better there too.

My position is Kareem elevates more often than he folds so him folding from a lower "baseline" still leaves him mostly peaking higher as playoff performer(and 1977 is the best playoff performance of either for me)


Will say while Kareem did not win, I find 1972 more impressive than most title wins.
lessthanjake wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
eminence wrote:The leagues merged in 77.

Yeah. I was looking at the year it was "approved" by congress.

Were there any ABA teams who would have made for better competition than the wilt-west Lakers or the 74 Celtics?


I guess to me I’m not primarily concerned specifically with whether it would’ve made it more difficult to win a title. It probably would have, but we mostly have no idea what would’ve happened if that talent had all been in the NBA. Would a team like the 1974 Nets with Dr. J have been more difficult to beat than the 1974 Celtics? Maybe. But in a world with no ABA, would there have even been a Nets team? Probably not. There may have been team expansion but it very likely would’ve happened completely differently. What we do know is that the overall talent in the league would’ve been substantially higher. Maybe/probably Kareem’s teams would’ve ended up more talented too, and so I don’t know that we can say for sure that a more talented league would make it harder for Kareem’s teams to win. What I think we *can* say is that a more talented league would’ve made it harder for Kareem to dominate individually or to make quite as big of an impact for his team, since the average players matched up onto him would’ve been better and so the average gap he’d have on his opponents would be lower.

Otoh, "expansion" teams are typically weaker and make for good srs/"degree of outlier juices". Will note the best player of the ABA, erving, had pretty weak signals in the nba iirc
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#148 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:46 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
eminence wrote:The leagues merged in 77.

Yeah. I was looking at the year it was "approved" by congress.

Were there any ABA teams who would have made for better competition than the wilt-west Lakers or the 74 Celtics?


I think a good resource is the exhibition games the two leagues played over the last 5 years.

'71-72
Lakers <didn't play>
Pacers 1-3

'72-73
Knicks 2-1
Pacers 1-5

'73-74
Celtics 2-2
Nets 4-1
Note Celtics won the game the two teams played

'74-75
Warriors <didn't play>
Colonels 3-2

'75-76
Celtics 0-1
Nets 5-2

I think that basically from '73-74 onward (the last 3 years), there's a solid case that top teams from the ABA were in the same ballpark as the top teams in the NBA.

Do I think any ABA team was as good as the '70 Knicks, '71 Bucks, or '72 Lakers? No, can't say I do. ('73 Knicks? Might pick champion Nets or Colonels over them.)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#149 » by f4p » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:49 pm

Official Vote
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Nominate:
Hakeem Olajuwon

Here is my post from the #1 thread for Jordan
Spoiler:
I'm voting for Michael Jordan. Is he going to win? No. I accept that the thing that makes me like this place is also why Michael Jordan isn't going to win. And who knows, maybe he shouldn't.

Has Michael Jordan produced more career value than Lebron James? Obviously not. Lebron passed him some time ago.

Does Michael Jordan solve more problems at a high level for a team than Lebron James? Obviously not. There's basically nothing Lebron can't do. Somehow able to drive high-level offenses, guard his own man, and be an unbelievable help defender who can even be a rim protector. A unique combination in NBA history.

If we simulated the careers of Michael Jordan and Lebron James 10,000 times, giving them every possible set of teammates and coaches and opponents, would Jordan win more titles than Lebron? I suspect not. They can both win with good teams, they can both lose with bad teams, and I suspect the Lebron wins/Jordan loses subset of teams is slightly larger than the Jordan wins/Lebron loses subset of teams.

In 5 years, will I still pick Michael Jordan over Lebron James? Perhaps not. Someone may finally pull out that 1001st impact metric that finally wears me down. I'm certainly open to the idea that Lebron James, with his mega-floor raising profile, ability to turn dumpster fire Cleveland teams into 60 win teams, ability to morph his game this way and that through 20 years of NBA changes, ability to decipher everything that is happening on a basketball court, ability to rack up massive playoff runs well into his 30s at a level Jordan really didn't even manage, ability to stay healthy while piling up more NBA mileage than any star in history, ability to hit more playoff game-winners than anyone, ability to win titles with 3 different teams, ability to handle the pressure of being Lebron James from the time he was 16 years old, ability to beat 73 win teams while leading an entire series in every box score stat, just might have a pretty good argument for best player ever. He might even have peak and prime and career over Jordan.

And yet...

I'm not voting for Lebron. Why?

Is career value all there is? After all, Michael Jordan retired under unique circumstances the first time, and as a living god who had no more worlds left to conquer the second time. Everyone who played against him said he was the best. Everyone who coached against him said he was the best. Everyone who watched him said he was the best. He was the biggest star. A global icon. He had more titles as the best player on his team than anyone who anyone had actually seen play (not Bill's fault he started playing in 1957, but doesn't make it untrue). Does one need to ruin the fairytale ending just to win a message board career value battle 25 years in the future? I would say no (though he ruined the fairytale anyway by coming back).

Do you have to solve all of your teams problems if you solve most of them, and solve a few (or at least one, scoring) in ways no one else ever has? And in the biggest moments, and consistently for your whole career?

Do we need to simulate their careers 10,000 random times? After all, GM's don't just randomly put teammates around you (or at least you hope they don't). Maybe some of those circumstances where Lebron would win out are very low probability circumstances, as no one would build around Lebron or Jordan in those ways.

I wrote this in a different thread that I guess was talking about 1998 Game 6 but I think it sums things up:

"I tried to tell myself that Jordan going 15-35 while his teammates went 19-32 in game 6 against the Jazz meant Jordan was just hogging the ball. But I couldn't get there. If my life depended on winning a playoff series, and I got one player to pick to come up big, to play in any era, to make sure nothing went wrong if we had the advantage, to maybe eke it out against a stronger team, to make sure they came up big in the 4th quarter and could even hit the final shot, I just can't pick someone other than Michael Jordan. I can get close with Lebron, but I still want MJ. In that game 6 where his teammates shot 60% from the field and he shot 43% and only had 1 assist, those numbers didn't seem to matter. At age 35, he scored over half of his team's points, with Pippen hobbling and Rodman no longer Rodman. He scored 8 points in something like the last 2:30 of the game. With his legacy of finals perfection on the line, with the highest ratings of any NBA game ever, with the thought it was probably his last game ever and what everyone would remember him for most, his team was down 3 with a minute to go and...? He calmly made a tough layup. Then calmly made a great defensive read and stole the ball from the other team's best player. Then, even though his team was the one trailing, he calmly wound the clock down because he knew. I hoped somehow he would miss and we would have game 7 and someone would finally beat Jordan in a finals. But I knew. And if you were a Jazz fan in the stands, you knew. And if you were one of the millions watching at home, you knew. That shot was going in. Dribble right, stop on a dime, rise up, perfect swish. Inevitable."

Overly dramatic? I think not. Hagiographic, that's for you to decide. But it's how Jordan seemed (and I didn't even like him). Was he truly inevitable? Well, he didn't win a title 9 times in 15 years, so obviously not. But I just can't escape the fact that I trusted Jordan more over the totality of his career. Give me a contending-level team and Jordan is turning it into a champion. Seemingly every time. Lebron reached that level post-2011. Maybe even surpassed it. But he wasn't at that level before 2011. You could shake Lebron. Maybe Lebron would be a force of nature and drop 48 and 9 on you, but you could get him feeling shaky about his jumper. You could even do it a little bit as far out as the first 3 games of the 2013 Finals when the Spurs pulled the 2011 Mavs trick of backing way off of him. But Jordan had it from day 1. Jordan was walking to The Garden and dropping 63 on Larry Bird as a 2nd year player coming off an injury. He was fearless, and feared.

The guy who was the most athletic and dazzling guy in the league, miles ahead of the average player in the league, was also incredibly fundamentally sound. And skilled. And smart. And driven. And cocky. And confident. Confident in ways Lebron wasn't until almost the middle of his career. He could get mad at someone and decide he wanted to drop 45 on them, and then do it. Is scoring all there is? No, but to put it in a different context, one less centered on some "alpha male" ego thing just wanting to score 45. One of the craziest Jordan stats is that he never lost 3 games in a row with the Bulls after some point in 1991. Do you know how easy it is to lose 3 games in a row? An injury here, a lull there, a little team turmoil over there. Not losing 3 in a row, for 6 years, regular season, or playoffs, is basically the team version of deciding you are going to score 45 on someone because they made you mad. Jordan could decide that losing 2 in a row made him mad, and then stop #3 from happening. Lebron has had all sorts of regular season lulls and LeBattical's and chemistry issues that have allowed long stretches of losing to happen.

And in the playoffs? Well, Lebron has been nearly perfect since 2011. If you think beating a 73 win team while leading the series in every stat is the greatest accomplishment ever (I do), maybe he's even exceeded what could be expected of anyone else in history in the playoffs since 2011. But there's 2011. Lebron straight up threw a title away. Jordan never did that. Jordan never even got close to doing that. All Lebron had to do was play halfway acceptable Lebron James basketball and he would have had his 1st title. But he choked. Badly. Blew a 15 point lead with under 8 minutes to go in game 2. Scored 8 points in game 5 in a close loss. These are simply things Jordan would never, ever, ever do. Not in 10,000 simulations, not in 1,000,000. Is it an unforgivable sin? Maybe not in a comparison with anyone else. But against Jordan?

Jordan was 24-0 with homecourt advantage. 25-0 with an SRS advantage. Led both teams in Game Score in 35 out of 37 series and only a few tenths away from being 37 out of 37 (basically no "off" series). Even Lebron the box score stat stuffer was only at leading 85% of his series by 2020. 6 out of 6 in the finals, even if his finals opponents were significantly weaker than Lebron's. Jordan never threw a title away. Rarely even really got close to it. And then there's something someone else brought up early in the thread.

When Lebron had his Heatles reign, it never quite lived up to the 90's Bulls domination. Now maybe I'm double-counting 2011 here, but I don't think so. The Heat were supposed to win "not 5, not 6...", and yet they just barely won 2. They paired up #1, #2, and #4 in PER. Yes, they paired them up with replacement level players in year 1, but outside of the regular season in 2013, they never quite seemed the sum of their parts. Maybe I'm underrating the 90's bulls supporting cast (after all, they won 55 without Jordan) or overrating the Heat until they stocked up with good role players by 2013. And yes, Wade was basically shot by the time the 2013 playoffs rolled around so it was really only 2 playoffs they were healthy. And Bosh missed a big chunk of the 2012 playoffs and the Heat survived. But 58, 58, 66, and 54 wins, with 2 titles, a finals choke, and 2 game 7's to win one of their finals, one of which was after a game 6 they trailed by 5 points with 20 seconds to go. It never felt like Lebron made it as easy as Jordan did. Should it have been as easy? No. Again, I mentioned many of the things holding the Heat back. But do I think Jordan is winning 2011 and at least not getting taken to 7 by the 2013 Pacers? Yes.

The Bulls averaged 65 wins in the 6 full seasons from 91-98. They had 4 or fewer losses in 4 title runs and only faced 2 game 7's total. Yes, Jordan got lucky with stacked teams. But when he had stacked teams, he cruised. In ways even Russell really didn't when you consider the 10 game 7's Russell faced, often against vastly inferior teams. As stacked as the Bulls were, their second best championship odds by SRS was only 58.7% in 1992. Russell had 7 teams with better odds. When the Bulls were good, they were very good. And didn't need to rest up in the regular season to dominate the playoffs. They just dominated both. Much is made of Lebron being better in Games 5-7 of a series than Jordan. But there was no Game 1 Jordan where he felt the series out. He just stomped you from the beginning. And if he got a lead, he didn't lose it. I believe the only lead he ever lost was 1-0. And he was the 6th seed against the #1 seed Pistons. After having already won 2 upset series. In a series where the Bulls gave the Pistons their only 2 losses of the playoffs. So about as forgivable a blown lead as possible (to be fair, Lebron never lost a 2-0 or 3-1 lead).

And that's the thing. Jordan just doesn't have many lowlights. Sure, you can try to theorize that his limited this or lack of that could have been surpassed by Lebron and turned some of those early Bulls teams into conference finalists or maybe Lebron could have gotten the 1990 Bulls to the Finals. But true "Jordan sucked and cost his team" lowlights? He didn't lose as a favorite, rarely if ever got outplayed by an opponent superstar, his bad series are like 28/9/4 with mediocre FG% and there's precious few of even those series. Threw away a championship? Definitely not. Does Lebron win back a lot of that blown championship with 2016? I think so. But all of it? No. It was a gimme putt to win the Masters. You don't get those back. Chasing Jordan is sort of like chasing perfection, even if he wasn't perfect. He had a perfect career arc, perfect narrative, perfect media presence, dominated 4th quarters, dominated Finals, showed up to big moments with swagger and then backed it up.

I don't like impact metrics as much as most here, but it would be good to have more Jordan impact numbers just to see what they say. Lebron certainly dominates the databall era in a way that is hard to refute. But Jordan dominates the stats that are available to a huge degree as well. I haven't gotten to do the other age ranges I wanted to do yet, but in Age 22-31 box numbers (10 year prime), he's:

Regular Season PER: #1
Regular Season WS48: #1
Regular Season BPM: #1
Postseason PER: #1
Postseason WS48: #1 (unless you want to count Mikan)
Postseason BPM: #1

And not by a little. If you normalize all of these, with 1.0 being top and #250 being 0 (give or take), and then average them, then you get:

Regular Season
Jordan: 1.000
Wilt: 0.913 (no BPM for him)
Lebron: 0.892

Postseason:
Jordan: 1.000
Jokic: 0.905
Lebron: 0.896

In other words, by the box score, you have go to almost 10% of the way from the #1 player to #250 before you hit the 2nd place person. In both the regular season and playoffs. Now I suspect if I do Age 24-33 or 26-35, that the gap will close, but 22-31 is a pretty normal prime age range. And Jordan dominates. While never losing as a favorite. While never choking away a championship. While dominating as much as anyone has when he had good teams. While being athletic and playing with flair but also somehow being fundamentally sound and doing simple things over and over to get great results. While going 6 for 6 in Finals. While stealing the ball from the other team...before dribbling the clock down...before taking the biggest jumper...in the biggest moment...in the biggest game...swish.


essentially perfect at converting contending opportunities, or at worst 6 for 7 with true contender chances. no losses as a favorite. his 6 full seasons from 91-98 is the most dominant stretch for any dynasty. dominant statistically.

to me, going 6/6 or 6/7 with no losses as a favorite is an unmatched combination. and certainly a huge advantage over kareem.

kareem in 1971 won a dominant title and should be praised for that dominance. but after a title with an incredible 94.6% championship odds at the start of the playoffs, he then hit a lull where he had 36%, 29%, and 69% chances to win and didn't (average champion is at 34%). that 69% chance in 1974 is the 3rd worst non-title, trailing only the 1958 celtics (70.7%) and, of all teams, the 1976 warriors (72.9%). then he missed the playoffs altogether for the next 2 years. in a decade with massive expansion (more than jordan), even more dilution to the ABA, where his biggest competitor in walton was ruined by injuries, and where great teams were rare in the 2nd half of the decade, we get one dominant title, a series of disappointments, and missed playoffs.

he lost 2 series in the 70's as a +4 SRS favorite (1973 warriors, 1974 boston). when comparing him to someone like jordan with no losses as a favorite at all, this is a huge deal. and he tacked on another +4 loss to 1986 houston. kareem was losing +4's at over twice the rate of the other top 30-40 guys i looked at (15.8% to 7.2%, with 7.2% showing you how rare it is). and he even has a near miss with a +3.5 loss.

the standard for jordan seems to be that if he has the most dominant 6 season stretch in nba history, it's still not enough. what even would be enough if the best stretch of results ever isn't enough? it's not enough because his teammates are too good, the odds too stacked in his favor, too much expansion. but the world was kareem's oyster in the 70's. he had all those things and more at various times in the 70's. were all his rosters contender worthy? no. but you can't lose a 69% title and miss the playoffs twice as by far the best player in the league and tell me you maxed out. and early in the 80's, we already have him getting outplayed by his counterpart moses malone and losing to a 40-42 team as a defending champion. these things are simply not on the resume of jordan.

yes, kareem was amazing right from the start. and probably lost out on a season or two of being very good by not getting to leave college early. and put up massive numbers. and has a few years where he dragged a team as far as possible, even if he didn't win. and has scoring numbers and efficiency numbers, even in the playoffs, that are amazing. i'm still voting for him #3 after all. he was very good. and he has lots of championships.

but of course part of kareem's 6 titles are that he got 2 as very clearly not the best player on his team, barely having above average stats (though i think others have indicated possibly good impact numbers). playing next to a top 10 player at his peak. kareem's age 36-38 seasons are 1984-1986, next to essentially peak magic johnson. if MJ came back to play his age 36/37/38 seasons and told the bulls to trade him to the lakers for kobe so he could play with peak shaq (or maybe slightly below peak shaq to make it more fair), he's probably climbing up to 7/8/9 titles. but he retired on top instead of dragging it out.

is it really just all about continually adding seasons together? picking the guy who was most willing to play it out to the very end just to add that last little bit of career value? in the last project, jordan finished #2 and kareem #3 and my notes indicate that neither of them have played any NBA games since then. the "portability/scalability" fever that gripped this place during the peaks project last year seems to have thankfully broken, but now we seem to have a longevity fetish building. is the lebron case on longevity bringing other longevity cases to the fore now?

Other factors for me:

Normalized Box Score Age 22-31 (my own calculation)
Regular Season
Jordan #1 (1.000)
Kareem #8 (0.790)

Post Season
Jordan #1 (0.993)
Kareem #6 (0.840)

Combined (25% RS, 75% PS)
Jordan #1 (0.995)
Kareem #5 (0.828)

Actual vs Expected Championships
Jordan +3.12 (5th out of previous Top 100)
Kareem +1.21 (19th out of previous Top 100)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#150 » by OhayoKD » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:49 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
eminence wrote:The leagues merged in 77.

Yeah. I was looking at the year it was "approved" by congress.

Were there any ABA teams who would have made for better competition than the wilt-west Lakers or the 74 Celtics?


I think a good resource is the exhibition games the two leagues played over the last 5 years.

'71-72
Lakers <didn't play>
Pacers 1-3

'72-73
Knicks 2-1
Pacers 1-5

'73-74
Celtics 2-2
Nets 4-1
Note Celtics won the game the two teams played

'74-75
Warriors <didn't play>
Colonels 3-2

'75-76
Celtics 0-1
Nets 5-2

I think that basically from '73-74 onward (the last 3 years), there's a solid case that top teams from the ABA were in the same ballpark as the top teams in the NBA.

Do I think any ABA team was as good as the '70 Knicks, '71 Bucks, or '72 Lakers? No, can't say I do. ('73 Knicks? Might pick champion Nets or Colonels over them.)

Delightful. 71/72 Kareem as the goat ceiling raiser survives :D
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#151 » by rk2023 » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:58 pm

f4p wrote:Nominate:
Hakeem Olajuwon


I wonder what the nomination pool looks like right now. Have seen KG?, Hakeem, Mikan, Shaq mentioned
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#152 » by ShaqAttac » Thu Jul 6, 2023 7:59 pm

rk2023 wrote:

I mean..you dont really comp mj to anyone. and youre basically just using boxe and acting like wins was worth the same in the 90s n the 60's.

i gotta agree with iggy. this project really solidified how weak mjs case is for me. many ppl just say he peak higher and dont say how and they dont acknowledge or address da other players args.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#153 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 6, 2023 8:10 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
eminence wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:I am of the personal opinion that Duncan doesn't quite belong in the GOAT discussion, and is a tier lower, but I'm looking forward to reading more about his case.

For the people that are high on KG as well, knowing that by pretty much all objective evidence, him and Duncan were virtual equals throughout their prime and that there are team circumstances where KG would actually be better, what in their career evaluations separates Duncan from KG for you, in that Duncan belongs in this conversation while KG does not? Or more from my POV: what is it that is elevating Duncan above KG into this tier, for you?

I've never really seen Duncan's peak being considered on par with Kareem for example, until now.


I have Duncan/KG very very close on individual evaluation (swinging back and forth a bit depending on how I evaluate 90's KG I've found), but on a Top 100 list like this I do weight team accomplishment at least a bit, and there Duncan is arguably the non-Russell GOAT, while KG unfortunately never had that opportunity. So basically Spurs >>> Wolves.


LOL, similar to the point I made about LeBron vs Jordan and their team success, although obviously to a much less extreme degree...is the difference between the Wolves and the Spurs because of some difference between KG and Duncan, or are there other factors you can point to that more easily explains the difference? Like roster construction and stability, front office, and coaching?

Spurs being a much more competent franchise than the Wolves and using that to dock KG (or alternatively, elevate Duncan) doesn't seem fair to me when ranking individual players.

We also had the opportunity to analyze these guys during the data ball era, unlike the LeBron vs Jordan comparison, and there really isn't much meaningful difference you can point to between them. That essentially provides a lot of the context that would be needed when looking at the difference in their team success, so you don't have to give the "benefit of the doubt" to Duncan.

I can see Duncan getting credit for superior longevity and ultimately durability though. Not during his prime, but in his post-prime seasons. Not sure how much extra boost that would give him in an all-time ranking though.


So great thoughts here and I've highlighted that part about fairness because it gets to the heart of the dilemma I've struggled with.

I don't think it's fair that Duncan landed on a superior franchise compared to Garnett.
I do think Duncan had unfair advantage as a result.
But if I try to normalize for fairness, can I do it in a consistent way across eras into the deep past?

I voted Garnett ahead of Duncan in the 2014-2020 projects and while my arguments then were about who the better player was rather than "fairness", I don't think it would be in accurate to call my approach a fairness-oriented approach. But I've just come to the conclusion that I can't do this well enough in an all-time project to achieve meaningful consistency.

The deeper into the past I go, the less able I am to do fairness adjustment for a variety of reasons. The most obvious one is the more and more limited video footage in general. But of course there's also the matter that the information that gets propagated forward tends to have what might be called an achievement-oriented bias. The writers of the time wrote about the top teams and their standout players, those teams tend to be the ones with more footage, and the data we have level of supporting cast is all the tougher to come by.

So if I adopt an achievement-oriented mindset just year-by-year, Duncan tallies out a good bit ahead of Garnett. Someone else might do the same and disagree - more power to them - but as someone who certainly didn't go into this process looking to put Duncan back ahead of Garnett, Duncan got the nod.

It's not fair...but achievement is not fair. Achievement is dependent on opportunity.

In prior projects like this a GOAT physicists has analogue has been brought up a couple times. Consider the inherent opportunity unfairness as we talk about European man vs European man vs European man. In another world, a greatest physicist list would look entirely different...but in this one, it is what it is.

Of course the analogy is imperfect - all analogies are - but despite the structural differences in the fields, I think the critical point is the same: Our ability to make a complete, fair list based on talent is much worse than our ability to make a list that has a consistent notion of achievement, and this contributes to our tendency toward the latter.

Anyway, I hope people do support Garnett like crazy. I would draft him over Duncan for any league with anything close to modern spacing at the very least...but my ranking will not be tied to this here.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#154 » by OhayoKD » Thu Jul 6, 2023 8:15 pm

f4p wrote:the standard for jordan seems to be that if he has the most dominant 6 season stretch in nba history, it's still not enough. what even would be enough if the best stretch of results ever isn't enough?

Vote how you want, but this repeated misrepresentation is wierd.

No. Besides that Russell was clearly more dominant for 6(8! actually)-years(and also overpeformed your expected champions statby a bigger margin than Mike), the argument against Jordan is that the low number of "chances" was a direct result of Jordan not being as good over the large samples of the regular season.

That 74, 77 and 72 are all "negatives" relative to Jordan's 88 and 90 even though Kareem probably led better league-relative teams with less help is why no one should be taking this "srs overperformance/underperformance" approach without

A. establishing what they think a player's rs baseline is
B. demonstrating a basis for different greats all being worth the same in the rs.

If you can't establish Jordan had weaker support, your argument against Kareem is basically that he was too good and thus must be held to a higher standard than Jordan. Much as it would be if we penalized 2009(your #1 ranked season). The 74 Bucks, the 72 Lakers, the 71 Bucks, and the 77 Lakers all did better than the 90 Pistons, the 91 Bulls, and the 88 Bulls relative to the league
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#155 » by rk2023 » Thu Jul 6, 2023 8:16 pm

rk2023 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Kareem leading with 6 votes out of 15 so far. I assume if no candidate has a majority then we go to preferences? Or can you win with a plurality, and 2nd preferences only matter for a tie?


My intention:

If majority -> winner.
If plurality, apply 2nd vote for run off. At that point, plurality -> winner.


For OaD, any idea how the votes are distributed? I haven't been checking in for updates as much as #1 through this iteration quite yet.


To edit, I scrolled and counted 19 votes. Wilt and Duncan (receiving a singular primary vote) seem to be later thoughts for now.

Kareem: 8 first place , 8 second
Jordan: 5 first place , 6 second
Russell: 4 first place , 5 second

Seems to be a quite competitive race with ~10 hours to go! Intrigued for the rest of 'ballots' incoming.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#156 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 6, 2023 8:37 pm

eminence wrote:My big question for the thread - How good was early career Russell, and what does his early career arc look like (how quickly/much does he improve)?

I'd say we generally have quite strong evidence that mid to late career Russell was a strong MVP type of player at least. I'm impressed by how he aged, and obviously by the team level success.

But the evidence for early career Russell is not so impressive (team change from '56 to '57 and how the team was doing prior to his arrival in '57).

How do others feel on the above question, and how do you arrive at your answer?


I think the improvements with Russell are less about holistic improvement and more about specialization.

There was a post in the #1 thread (I may link to it now that I think about it) talking about Russell's offensive limitations. I think people need to understand that Russell was by far his college team's lead scorer, and broke the record for scoring in the NCAA tournament.

Someone else already posted in this project about Auerbach telling Russell he wasn't going to hold it against him if he didn't score. I think people might see that as assuaging Russell's doubts about his limitations, but I think the context is more about Russell joining a team with offensive stars. Sure Auerbach saw Russell has his defensive anchor right from the jump, but would he have chosen to build his offense perimeter-oriented if he hadn't had guys like Cousy & Sharman? My guess that if he were starting from scratch with Russell and question marks he'd have built an offense not all that dissimilar to USF's with Russell at the center, literally and figuratively.

None of that is to say that Russell was ever going to have great shooting touch - that's flat out a weakness of his - but when a guy is longer, more agile, a high jumper, and smarter than everyone else of similar size, I think you can build a decent offense around that, particularly when zones are illegal.

Let's note that Wilt became a greater, not lesser scorer, in the NBA compared to college, and if you go back and watch Wilt in college, you can just see the ways zone defense was used to limit him. Russell was not Wilt's equal on this front, but I'd expect that there could've been an analogous pattern had Russell's NBA coach chose to go down that road.

All this then to say that while I do think Russell's impact went up and up and up at least through '64, I think much of that came from contextual refinement. Russell focused more and more on what was providing the most impact - under the astute supervision of Red - and while some of that is about new skill growth and veteran savvy, I also think it was about the context around him shifting to better make use of him, and that happened to mean not focusing on scoring, or putting him position to score at volume and efficiency.

To your last point:

Knowing what to make about the splits in '56-67 is something I've never come to a firm conclusion on. If one wants to point to the fact that the team seems to have made a defensive shift even before Russell's arrival as a reason not to give Russell too much credit for the success of '56-67, that seems quite reasonable.

Thing for me is that there's just no doubt that as the Celtics were winning that first title, they were relying profoundly on Russell as they would continue to do for the next 13 years. As such, more holistically, I don't feel comfortable dismissing any part of Russell's career as merely being part of an ensemble.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#157 » by ty 4191 » Thu Jul 6, 2023 8:55 pm

lessthanjake wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
eminence wrote:The leagues merged in 77.

Yeah. I was looking at the year it was "approved" by congress.

Were there any ABA teams who would have made for better competition than the wilt-west Lakers or the 74 Celtics?


I guess to me I’m not primarily concerned specifically with whether it would’ve made it more difficult to win a title. It probably would have, but we mostly have no idea what would’ve happened if that talent had all been in the NBA. Would a team like the 1974 Nets with Dr. J have been more difficult to beat than the 1974 Celtics? Maybe. But in a world with no ABA, would there have even been a Nets team? Probably not. There may have been team expansion but it very likely would’ve happened completely differently. What we do know is that the overall talent in the league would’ve been substantially higher. Maybe/probably Kareem’s teams would’ve ended up more talented too, and so I don’t know that we can say for sure that a more talented league would make it harder for Kareem’s teams to win. What I think we *can* say is that a more talented league would’ve made it harder for Kareem to dominate individually or to make quite as big of an impact for his team, since the average players matched up onto him would’ve been better and so the average gap he’d have on his opponents would be lower.


I systematically appraised every expansion team from 1966-1967 through 1981-1982, here.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KfFmPYlS0Mx00w0hri6LoGASkES3DWfBY25Q8vhHWoA/edit

(Really awful players and teams added to the league, for the most part.)

To think that the NBA could expand from 9 teams in 1966 to 22 teams in 1977 *without* a precipitous dropoff in overall depth and quality is fairly silly and specious.

Also, by 1976 4 of the 10 best players in the NBA (the following year, post merger) and 15 of the top 50 were playing in the ABA in Kareem’s prime.

See post #2, here, for details:

https://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=833

I know people worship Kareem here, and, ergo, we’re (essentially) not allowed to talk about league depth and quality here, or globalization, as another example, but, if EVER, we REALLY should be discussing both…at length, in THIS ongoing discussion!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/nba-foreign-born-players-2016-11%3famp
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#158 » by OhayoKD » Thu Jul 6, 2023 8:59 pm

ShaqAttac wrote:
rk2023 wrote:

I mean..you dont really comp mj to anyone. and youre basically just using boxe and acting like wins was worth the same in the 90s n the 60's.

i gotta agree with iggy. this project really solidified how weak mjs case is for me. many ppl just say he peak higher and dont say how and they dont acknowledge or address da other players args.

I am very curious what in-between got the offensive bits to >corp than russell. Will say though, if you're using Sansterre's supporting cast assessments, those are based on BPM and uh, subject to all the biases previously discussed.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#159 » by OhayoKD » Thu Jul 6, 2023 9:10 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:Yeah. I was looking at the year it was "approved" by congress.

Were there any ABA teams who would have made for better competition than the wilt-west Lakers or the 74 Celtics?


I guess to me I’m not primarily concerned specifically with whether it would’ve made it more difficult to win a title. It probably would have, but we mostly have no idea what would’ve happened if that talent had all been in the NBA. Would a team like the 1974 Nets with Dr. J have been more difficult to beat than the 1974 Celtics? Maybe. But in a world with no ABA, would there have even been a Nets team? Probably not. There may have been team expansion but it very likely would’ve happened completely differently. What we do know is that the overall talent in the league would’ve been substantially higher. Maybe/probably Kareem’s teams would’ve ended up more talented too, and so I don’t know that we can say for sure that a more talented league would make it harder for Kareem’s teams to win. What I think we *can* say is that a more talented league would’ve made it harder for Kareem to dominate individually or to make quite as big of an impact for his team, since the average players matched up onto him would’ve been better and so the average gap he’d have on his opponents would be lower.


I systematically appraised every expansion team from 1966-1967 through 1981-1982, here.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KfFmPYlS0Mx00w0hri6LoGASkES3DWfBY25Q8vhHWoA/edit

(Really awful players and teams added to the league, for the most part.)

To think that the NBA could expand from 9 teams in 1966 to 22 teams in 1977 *without* a precipitous dropoff in overall depth and quality is fairly silly and specious.

Also, by 1976 4 of the 10 best players in the NBA (the following year, post merger) and 15 of the top 50 were playing in the ABA in Kareem’s prime.

See post #2, here, for details:

https://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=833

I know people worship Kareem here, and, ergo, we’re (essentially) not allowed to talk about league depth and quality here, or globalization, as another example, but, if EVER, we REALLY should be discussing both…at length, in THIS ongoing discussion!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/nba-foreign-born-players-2016-11%3famp

Kareem's teams are a bigger outler than the 91 and 90 Bulls+before the aba strengthens though. And the post-merger teams Kareem leads are consistently better or on par than the pre-triangle bulls(which would include what is most likely MJ's "situational value" apex in 1988). Hell the 1980 Lakers are also a strong champion(+1.81 overall, playoff elevators) and Kareem is still by far the best player. FWIW, enigma and I guesstimated that at 50-ish win support.

Kareem is "worshipped" as a longetivity accumulator, but his impact profile is Lebron-esque. He's consistently super-valuable across all sorts of situations as we should expect a player with his skillset to be and he usually gets better in the playoffs. Expansion doesn't really form a positive argument for anyone left here but russell beyond some small-stretch outliers(not Jordan).
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#160 » by LukaTheGOAT » Thu Jul 6, 2023 9:14 pm

rk2023 wrote:Making the Case for Michael Jordan with provided information:

Credit to Thinking Basketball, Squared2020, and various great RealGM posters for quantitative / qualitative info drawn from.

Being very arguably the most popular basketball figure / superstar in history, Jordan makes (in my opinion cements) a remarkable Mt. Rushmore case for himself analytically and pragmatically - which I hope to lay out, rather than a lot of "vibes"-based arguments which less nuanced fans usually present. While I am not the highest on the room on his first three seasons (his Wizards years as well obviously, more on both to come), I believe 1988 was when most of the foundation of Jordan's prime basketball ability came together - with incremental offensive changes & tweaks present up until his peak of 1990/91. While his overall baseline of efficiency marginally declined (and defense took a step down) after that, the polished skill-set still made him all-time in that regard before Jordan's first retirement. After coming back in 1996, Jordan's floor-raising ability declined - but he excelled as the offensive centerpiece [due to his scoring and phenomenal turnover economy] on two GOAT-level teams and one final all-time team.

When looking at the Box-Score, here's how Jordan fares in Thinking Basketball's model from 1988-93:

Spoiler:
- Regular Season: 32.1 Adj. Points / 75 on 6.0% rTS (2.3 ScoreVal), 6.6 Passer Rating, 8.9 Box Creation, 51.2 O-Load, 8.2 BPM, 7.6 PIPM

- Playoffs: 34.5 Adj. Points / 75 on +5.9% rTS (2.5 ScoreVal), 7.0 Passer Rating, 12.4 Box Creation, 57.3 O-Load, 9.3 BPM


Same logic for 1996-98 in what I would classify a different role:

Spoiler:
- Regular Season: 32.1 Adj. Points / 75 on 2.7% rTS (1.8 ScoreVal), 6.0 Passer Rating, 7.3 Box Creation, 50.1 O-Load, 6.4 BPM, 6.0 PIPM

- Playoffs: 33.9 Adj. Points / 75 on +2.1% rTS (1.9 ScoreVal), 6.1 Passer Rating, 8.0 Box Creation, 52.2 O-Load, 7.5 BPM


For some more context, here's how this looked against different opponents (h/t 70sFan):

Spoiler:
1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


Of-course, all of that - unfortunately - isn't complemented by a slate of impact metrics. Courtesy of Ben (again), there is some +/- and on-off tracking from the Playoffs however (listed in rough estimates). Take it for what you would like to, I have linked the video as well:



Spoiler:
1988-90: +3 net rating on-court, 23 on/off
1989-91: +8 net rating on-court, 21 on/off
1990-92: +9 net-rating on-court, 13 on/off
1991-93: +9 net-rating on-court, 8 on/off
1996: +13 net-rating on-court, 16 on/off
1997: +8 net-rating on-court, 21 on/off
1998: +9 net-rating on-court, 12 on/off


When eye-balling all of this, the play-by-play differences and potency signal more of a 'top-tier all time' lift rather than the outlier the box score and derivations of it (eg. BBRef) may make MJ's value to be.

Using some data from the Top-100 teams effort as well as Thinking Basketball, the offensive results present a similar story.

Sansterre's Project - worth noting the 90s Bulls are 5 out of the top 20 teams and 2 of the top 4:
Spoiler:
1991 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 61-21, Regular Season SRS: +8.57 (14th), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +6.7 (11th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -2.7 (64th)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +6.48 (36th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -7.92 (18th)
Playoff SRS: +15.73 (6th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +6.38 (3rd)
Shooting Advantage: +6.2%, Possession Advantage: -1.7 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.92 (28th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -1.18 (69th)

1992 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 67-15, Regular Season SRS: +10.07 (9th), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +7.3 (6th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -3.7 (49th)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +6.0 (44th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -5.15 (48th)
Playoff SRS: +11.75 (34th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +1.09 (80th)
Shooting Advantage: +2.3%, Possession Advantage: +1.5 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.25 (56th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -2.00 (51st)

1993 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 57-25, Regular Season SRS: +6.19 (68th), Earned the 2 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +4.9 (34th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -1.9 (75th)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +8.91 (12th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -2.97 (75th)
Playoff SRS: +10.08 (62nd), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +2.41 (49th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.27 (55th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -3.11 (26th)

1996 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 72-10, Regular Season SRS: +11.80 (2nd), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +7.6 (4th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -5.8 (19th)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +7.66 (23rd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -9.45 (7th)
Playoff SRS: +16.60 (4th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +2.91 (40th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +1.25 (74th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -3.76 (13th)

1997 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 69-13, Regular Season SRS: +10.70 (5th), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +7.7 (3rd), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -4.3 (33rd)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +5.40 (53rd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -7.66 (21st)
Playoff SRS: +11.74 (35th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +0.64 (89th)
Shooting Advantage: +0.0%, Possession Advantage: +7.3 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.66 (37th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -3.90 (9th)

1998 Bulls:
Regular Season Record: 62-20, Regular Season SRS: +7.24 (37th), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +2.7 (66th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -5.2 (25th)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +5.42 (52nd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -8.00 (17th)
Playoff SRS: +12.99 (27th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +3.69 (27th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +4.40 (4th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -0.72 (79th)


Spoiler:
Using Thinking Basketball's rORTG adjustments, the Jordan-era Bulls (in 3-year increments - where 1989 = 1987-89 seasons) percentiles in team offenses for the RS/PS are as follows:

Spoiler:
- 1989: 62nd, 39th
- 1990: 77th, 49th
- 1991: 94th, 87th
- 1992: 99th, 93th
- 1993: 99th, 97th
- 1994: 93rd, 95th
- 1995: 76th, 95th
- 1996: 86th, 93rd
- 1997: 98th, 88th
- 1998: 99th, 89th


With these pieces of the puzzle, here's my verdict:

Jordan had the talent and the raw-offensive ability to be deployed as an excellent floor-raiser of sub-par talent as he broke into his own as a player. When assessing 1988 and 1989 (the pre-triangle, Monster O-Load phase) at or around his apex, I don't think the hero-ball was too much of a problem specific to situation - but 1985-88 in whole paints a different story:
From 1985-88, he created shots for teammates only slightly more than he passed them over (6 plays per 100, in line with his traditional box creation estimate).3 His wild forays into multiple defenders yielded a woeful efficiency of 0.59 points per attempt on such plays.


When looking at 1985-87 (which I see as a more valid and prominent explaining factor of the offensive bottlenecks and coupled with negative value on defense due to little discipline), it's hard to see 1985 over an All-NBA level and 1987 over a fringe-MVP level.

His defense was better in 1988 and 1989 due to better athleticism and motor (even with his well-known gambling errors), but the reason I take 1990 and 1991 as his best seasons are due to the ideal combination of defense/connective-skills/heliocentric floor-raising.

When Phil Jackson arrived in 1990 and installed the triangle, Jordan’s habit of shooting into heavy coverage dissipated. (He settled at around 2 missed creations per 100 for the rest of his career, comparable to career rates from LeBron.) But suboptimal court vision isn’t easily correctable and myopia sometimes limited the value of his passes. Not all creation is equal either, and Jordan was inconsistent in finding the high-value spots on the court. In over 1,100 offensive possessions tracked, MJ hit over 2 “good” passes per 100 with a passing profile slightly behind Dwyane Wade’s and Kobe Bryant’s. During the Jackson years, his passing capability didn’t change much, per se. His decision-making simply improved. Jordan replaced difficult, low efficiency shots with setups for open teammates, bumping his own efficiency and creation rates in the process.4 As he upgraded his floor game, MJ morphed into an elite creator, posting rates in the 94th to 98th historical percentile between 1989 and 1997.


As I stated earlier, the efficiency of mega-creator Jordan declined in 1992/93 along with his defense doing the same - leading me to rank the years as follows: 91 >= 90, 89, 92, 88, 93. I see the top 3 years as "GOAT" caliber, 88/92 as "Fringe-GOAT", and 93 as "All-Time".

When looking at his retirement, the Bulls added a few pieces amidst a defensive slant. In 1994, they accrued a 2.74 SRS flanked by a -3.6 rDRTG and -.2 rORTG. In 1995, they accrued a 4.7 net rating (109.6-105) in 65 games without Jordan and a 7.5 net rating in 17 games with (112.8-105.3) - keep in mind this being a more rusty Jordan. Comparing to the 1990-93 Bulls roster, what I can most grasp is that the Bulls had enough of a safety net to stay afloat through defense while ~treading water on offense - in alignment with the progression in on/off data presented by Ben & TB's team. Furthermore, Jordan's defense heading into the first retirement was shown to be replace-able while the offense was something much more worthwhile to hold on-to. Furthermore:

In 1995, before his return, Chicago chugged along at +1.2 for 63 games (playing at a 52-win pace), reinforcing the team’s competence but also highlighting Jordan’s value — lifting slightly above average offenses by 5 or 6 points is GOAT-worthy. After nearly two seasons off, MJ (posting a cringeworthy -2.6 percent rTS) lifted the ’95 team’s offense to +4.3 in his 27 games (at a 59-win pace). Again, the turnovers declined, down to 12.1 percent from 14.6. Even an oxidized Jordan made an impact.


From 1996-98, Jordan's playmaking responsibilities declined decently so, he remained a stout volume scorer but on less efficiency, and his motor/athleticism were worse - dialing him into a more cerebral, but less effective (still incredible - where I would say 96-98 is the premier shooting guard slate of seasons all time) role on both sides. The Bulls emphasis on rebounding, defense, skill-set versatility, shooting, movement (all catalyzed by Jordan's floor/ceiling raising hybrid - great TOV/cTOV% like almost all of his career, releases valve scoring, offensive rebounding, and movement) - they reached the heights he did. With the box and impact profiles available, it's very hard to find an argument for 96-98 Jordan being the same caliber player he was at his magnum opus(es). The resiliency against elite and formidable PS defenses tells a similar story as well. With the information provided, my guesstimate is that 1996 was an "All-Time" season, 1997 in between All-Time and MVP (I'll go fringe here), and 1998 an MVP effort.

Some further impact snippets from this second three-peat:
The adjusted game-level data we have on Jordan echoes the common sentiment that he’s one of the most valuable players ever; he’s right at the top of these three studies with an average per-game value of +8.2. We only have two years of adjusted plus-minus (APM) at the end of his career and another year of Augmented plus-minus (AuPM), both of which paint Jordan as an elite and consistent player, but not a sui generis force; Jordan’s scaled adjusted plus-minus figures from 1996-98 (about +6.5) all fall in the 98th percentile for seasons on record.


Augmented +/-:
7.4, 5.2, 4.3

Scaled APM values (a CORP estimate) for 1997/98 come out to be a 5.5 and 5.1 level respectively.

A further assessment I wrote on a past thread regarding the 97/98 Bulls:
Spoiler:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2273425&p=104825395&hilit=harper#p104825395


Even with the high ends and what I feel to be a substantial argument for GOAT peak/prime in Jordan's favor, why I see him as career #3 all-time is due to the meaningful longevity/prime quality and overall longevity aspects. I haven't finalized intel for my pool aside from my Mt. Rushmore / GOAT candidates yet, but James & Jabbar (even Russell) both have more MVP+ level seasons - and better supporting years when factoring in the full body of work.

Anyways, I hope you all enjoyed my reasoning. Had a free day today before a mini-trip, so felt the whim to make an exception and dive in this deep. Cheers. :D


Great post. However, I see you think of 87 Jordan as a fringe MVP level guy. What do you believe separates a 06 Kobe year from a 87 Jordan? I could be wrong but I believe you have 06 Kobe at Strong MVP at minimum. There's not much evidence that Kobe was a huge needle mover on defense at this point.

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