Who is the Shohei Ohtani of the NBA?

[LukaTheGOAT]

Well, in an actual 1:1 comparison it's simply not fair to Ruth as it was so long ago; Ohtani is just worlds better/more advanced as a pitcher and I can't imagine the hitting numbers he'd put up in the 1920's with what he can do against modern arms (we wouldn't call the fastest most dominant sprinter of the 1920's better than the #3 sprinter of 2023, would we?). But yes, Babe 100 years ago is the obvious comparison, and he is widely recognized as a top 3 athlete in sports history. Just so long ago at this point that it's hard to make a real comparison there with the evolution of the sport.

My point is that Ohtani is not 1 of 1. He's 1 of 1 out of guys who could do both that teams actually allow to do both at the same time. Ruth may have won 300 games as a pitcher on top of being the goat batter if the Yankees had decided to let him to do both and Babe had wanted to. Then obviously there's also the Bo/Deion/Brown/Thorpe type comparisons along with some others. Ohtani is on a short list for sure though in terms of how he stands out historically.

I mean this would be like someone averaging 45 a game today and saying wilt averaged 50 though

I mean this is disgenious. We have ways to adjust Wilt's 50 point season and estimate its impact. It comes out as looking like one of the GOAT seasons, but typical 71 Kareem and 16 Steph come out ahead. Wilt didn't have the highest scoring rate per-possession even when adjusted for inflation nor the best efficiency of a high-volume season we have seen.

All people are saying is if you adjust for era, there could be someone comparable (or actually better).

[RTG HD]

lol @ Jokic. Is he even above average defensively? His name is popping up everywhere since Denver won it all. He's the same player he was three months ago, when no one would mention him in this.

By the eye test... well I must be missing something because I don't see that defense but the number indicate that he is a great defensive player.

[MyUniBroDavis]

My point is that Ohtani is not 1 of 1. He's 1 of 1 out of guys who could do both that teams actually allow to do both at the same time. Ruth may have won 300 games as a pitcher on top of being the goat batter if the Yankees had decided to let him to do both and Babe had wanted to. Then obviously there's also the Bo/Deion/Brown/Thorpe type comparisons along with some others. Ohtani is on a short list for sure though in terms of how he stands out historically.

I mean this would be like someone averaging 45 a game today and saying wilt averaged 50 though

I mean this is disgenious. We have ways to adjust Wilt's 50 point season and estimate its impact. It comes out as looking like one of the GOAT seasons, but typical 71 Kareem and 16 Steph come out ahead. Wilt didn't have the highest scoring rate per-possession even when adjusted for inflation nor the best efficiency of a high-volume season we have seen.

All people are saying is if you adjust for era, there could be someone comparable (or actually better).

Bro you know what I mean lmao

[Optms]

Ohtani is above anyone in the NBA. In order for anyone to be close, we need an MVP player who is also a DPOY candidate every year, and play all 5 positions. And even then, they are no Ohtani.

LeBron, but he's not a dominant defender because he's on the perimeter. Ohtani is a dominant pitcher and hitter.

Maybe a big man like Hakeem? He's dominant and isn't tethered to the rim. But he doesn't have open floor ball handing skills or great shooting range.

So as far as doing EVERYTHING, I don't think we've seen it. Victor possibly at some point?

Being able to defend at an elite level 1-4 is a bare minimum. Lebron at his peak was close, Hakeem as well. Maybe toss in Giannis. But the reason why I say they still aren't Ohtani is because we've seen iterations of MVP level players that can play elite defense. Lebron, Jordan, Hakeem, Giannis, etc. All within the last 25-30 years.

Who Ohtani is within his sport as a player is something none of us have seen within our lifetimes. You are either a pitcher or hitter. That has been the rule. But he is both and he is an MVP level player and Cy Young award candidate simultaneously. The further you go into his skillset, the more insane and impossible it seems.

[BoatsNZones]

Babe wasn't a better pitcher than Ohtani, relative to era or otherwise, and it was only a mainstay for him in his early to mid 20's for a few seasons. The man did not have the mental fortitude to continue it on both ends, he was a full blown alcoholic/chain cigar smoker who would get pinch runners at first base for his homers as his career progressed. But yes, as a talent we can agree he had it. And if you want to say the company Ohtani keeps is the man who many consider the greatest in American history, I'm not going to berate you.

I think you're kind of going off the deep end in a need to prop up Shohei. The whole point about Babe being a drinker/smoker doesn't carry that much weight when he absolutely destroyed all the record books in a way that only Bonds' 4 year stretch compares to them. Pitching every 4-5 days may if anything had kept him in better shape. Also for all the talk of Babe being fat or out of shape he probably aged among the best of any hitter of his era or others. He remained the best hitter in mlb at age 36 and still very good at ages 37&38.

I'm speaking to the reality of what happened/is happening in their careers. You're speaking to hypotheticals (that I wouldn't agree with and are here nor there), so I wouldn't say I'm the one off the deep end here. He did age well as a hitter, yes, which is half of the discussion, but better suited for a debate between him and Barry Bonds.

He pitched at an elite level for a very brief time on the Red Sox when he was still very young and a part time player as a budding hitter. He had a single season (1919, his last with the Sox) where he attempted to do what Shohei is doing (full time pitcher/hitter), and while the hitting results were fantastic, it resulted in both his worst pitching season (not near the elite pitchers) and first/last time attempting the feat by him or anyone else (until now). The Ruth of lore (the dominant Yankees slugger) was never a pitcher, and never showed us he could play a full season being elite at both. There is only one player in history who has, and it’s Shohei.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Ohtani is above anyone in the NBA. In order for anyone to be close, we need an MVP player who is also a DPOY candidate every year, and play all 5 positions. And even then, they are no Ohtani.

LeBron, but he's not a dominant defender because he's on the perimeter. Ohtani is a dominant pitcher and hitter.

Maybe a big man like Hakeem? He's dominant and isn't tethered to the rim. But he doesn't have open floor ball handing skills or great shooting range.

So as far as doing EVERYTHING, I don't think we've seen it. Victor possibly at some point?

Being able to defend at an elite level 1-4 is a bare minimum. Lebron at his peak was close, Hakeem as well. Maybe toss in Giannis. But the reason why I say they still aren't Ohtani is because we've seen iterations of MVP level players that can play elite defense. Lebron, Jordan, Hakeem, Giannis, etc. All within the last 25-30 years.

Who Ohtani is within his sport as a player is something none of us have seen within our lifetimes. You are either a pitcher or hitter. That has been the rule. But he is both and he is an MVP level player and Cy Young award candidate simultaneously. The further you go into his skillset, the more insane and impossible it seems.

I agree he clears anyone in the nba but he’s not a cy young candidate, he was earlier in the season

[BoatsNZones]

LeBron, but he's not a dominant defender because he's on the perimeter. Ohtani is a dominant pitcher and hitter.

Maybe a big man like Hakeem? He's dominant and isn't tethered to the rim. But he doesn't have open floor ball handing skills or great shooting range.

So as far as doing EVERYTHING, I don't think we've seen it. Victor possibly at some point?

Being able to defend at an elite level 1-4 is a bare minimum. Lebron at his peak was close, Hakeem as well. Maybe toss in Giannis. But the reason why I say they still aren't Ohtani is because we've seen iterations of MVP level players that can play elite defense. Lebron, Jordan, Hakeem, Giannis, etc. All within the last 25-30 years.

Who Ohtani is within his sport as a player is something none of us have seen within our lifetimes. You are either a pitcher or hitter. That has been the rule. But he is both and he is an MVP level player and Cy Young award candidate simultaneously. The further you go into his skillset, the more insane and impossible it seems.

I agree he clears anyone in the nba but he’s not a cy young candidate, he was earlier in the season

He is top 4 in Cy Young odds (finished 4th last year as well) and leads the league in strikeouts per 9 innings (also led last year) with a 3.02 ERA and ranks #2 in the AL in fielding independent pitching (FIP). He is by all measures a true Cy Young caliber pitcher/candidate.

He's also -1450 at the sportsbook to win MVP, which pre All Star Break may be the most dominant odds I've ever seen (he was easily the MVP last season as well which would set him up for 3X in a row MVP's, but the hype of home runs and New York got Judge the nod).

[LukaTheGOAT]

Being able to defend at an elite level 1-4 is a bare minimum. Lebron at his peak was close, Hakeem as well. Maybe toss in Giannis. But the reason why I say they still aren't Ohtani is because we've seen iterations of MVP level players that can play elite defense. Lebron, Jordan, Hakeem, Giannis, etc. All within the last 25-30 years.

Who Ohtani is within his sport as a player is something none of us have seen within our lifetimes. You are either a pitcher or hitter. That has been the rule. But he is both and he is an MVP level player and Cy Young award candidate simultaneously. The further you go into his skillset, the more insane and impossible it seems.

I agree he clears anyone in the nba but he’s not a cy young candidate, he was earlier in the season

He is top 4 in Cy Young odds (finished 4th last year as well) and leads the league in strikeouts per 9 innings (also led last year) with a 3.02 ERA and ranks #2 in the AL in fielding independent pitching (FIP). He is by all measures a true Cy Young caliber pitcher/candidate.

He's also -1450 at the sportsbook to win MVP, which pre All Star Break may be the most dominant odds I've ever seen (he was easily the MVP last season as well which would set him up for 3X in a row MVP's, but the hype of home runs and New York got Judge the nod).

But see this is what I mean. The way Ohtani is obtaining is impact is unique, but arguing he clearly should have been MVP and that Judge got it because of of home runs just isn't true. His impact has been matched.

Judge was #1 in ESPN WAR and Fangraphs WAR. It isn't heresy to suggest Judge was deserving.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I mean this would be like someone averaging 45 a game today and saying wilt averaged 50 though

I mean this is disgenious. We have ways to adjust Wilt's 50 point season and estimate its impact. It comes out as looking like one of the GOAT seasons, but typical 71 Kareem and 16 Steph come out ahead. Wilt didn't have the highest scoring rate per-possession even when adjusted for inflation nor the best efficiency of a high-volume season we have seen.

All people are saying is if you adjust for era, there could be someone comparable (or actually better).

Bro you know what I mean lmao

Keeping you on your toes

[Dr Positivity]

With Ohtani separating himself from baseball field and Mahomes and McDavid definitely feeling like "the guy" for their sport, I think NBA has least clear #1 of of major sports. If Jokic has another dominant season next year and wins his 3rd MVP/2nd title he could potentially still get there, but history suggests "the guy" will make it obvious very early like Mahomes 50 TD in his first full season, Ohtani's first MVP, Jordan spectacular rookie season or super prospects like Kareem and Lebron. Wemby is a good candidate.

lol @ Jokic. Is he even above average defensively? His name is popping up everywhere since Denver won it all. He's the same player he was three months ago, when no one would mention him in this.

I see the comp as more Jokic passing numbers for a center is so atypical and shouldn't be able to happen, like how an elite hitter/pitcher wasn't supposed to happen.

[rk2023]

With Ohtani separating himself from baseball field and Mahomes and McDavid definitely feeling like "the guy" for their sport, I think NBA has least clear #1 of of major sports. If Jokic has another dominant season next year and wins his 3rd MVP/2nd title he could potentially still get there, but history suggests "the guy" will make it obvious very early like Mahomes 50 TD in his first full season, Ohtani's first MVP, Jordan spectacular rookie season or super prospects like Kareem and Lebron. Wemby is a good candidate.

lol @ Jokic. Is he even above average defensively? His name is popping up everywhere since Denver won it all. He's the same player he was three months ago, when no one would mention him in this.

I see the comp as more Jokic passing numbers for a center is so atypical and shouldn't be able to happen, like how an elite hitter/pitcher wasn't supposed to happen.

For any swimming enthusiasts, a swimmer who is the closest thing to Phelps from an all around standpoint is coming from France: pay attention to Leon Marchand as the 2024 games approach.

[BoatsNZones]

I agree he clears anyone in the nba but he’s not a cy young candidate, he was earlier in the season

He is top 4 in Cy Young odds (finished 4th last year as well) and leads the league in strikeouts per 9 innings (also led last year) with a 3.02 ERA and ranks #2 in the AL in fielding independent pitching (FIP). He is by all measures a true Cy Young caliber pitcher/candidate.

He's also -1450 at the sportsbook to win MVP, which pre All Star Break may be the most dominant odds I've ever seen (he was easily the MVP last season as well which would set him up for 3X in a row MVP's, but the hype of home runs and New York got Judge the nod).

But see this is what I mean. The way Ohtani is obtaining is impact is unique, but arguing he clearly should have been MVP and that Judge got it because of of home runs just isn't true. His impact has been matched.

Judge was #1 in ESPN WAR and Fangraphs WAR. It isn't heresy to suggest Judge was deserving.

This is actually a fair point if you want to point directly to WAR as a baseline all-in-one, but you have to realize it gave Judge effectively 3X the offensive value of Ohtani, which I can't subscribe to. But this isn't a hill I would die on in the debate.

[Dr Aki]

Peak LeBron, Kareem, MJ, Giannis, Wilt

[Laimbeer]

Ohtani is freakish in that he plays the dominant defensive position at an elite level while being a great all-around offensive player. For me you'd have to be a DPOY-ish defensive anchor and a guy who can do everything offensively in the NBA, incuding handles and three point range. We have not seen that, but Victor has a chance.

[Snakebites]

We don’t have the equivalent of pitching in basketball, so it’s very hard to make a comparison.

Positional defense (which Ohtani does not do) is far less important than a positional players’ offensive production, and pitching, despite a starting pitcher only throwing in about 20 percent of games, is elevated in importance. Before Ohtani, there really was no such thing as a “two way superstar”, since even being a gold glove position player isn’t *that* impactful- no one position player can anchor a defense because the field is too big. And of course before Ohtani, the only “defensive stars”- pitchers- didn’t hit the ball well.

Ohtani is the first true two-way star in modern MLB history. Even Babe Ruth only had one year where he was a top hitter AND high end elite every day pitcher AT THE SANE TIME. Ohtani stands alone. The game is structured too differently than basketball to really compare him to any one NBA player.

This is further complicated by the fact that it’s harder for individual players to have as big an impact in baseball. In the NBA a true superstar can elevate a mediocre supporting staff to a strong record (think LeBron in his first Cavs stint). In baseball the Angels have been mediocre the last few years despite having the two best players in the league (though this year Trout has missed time).

So yeah, cop out answer is you can’t really compare.

Now if you want to talk about how much of an outlier he is in terms of ability and impact relative to other players IN HIS OWN SPORT, there is no NBA player who is an outlier in basketball like Ohtani is in baseball. No comparison.

[DCasey91]

Different sport but a better comparison would be Imran Khan. He’s the only out and out quick (especially early days) that was a very very good bat that I can recall. Now in that sport there’s more all rounders but no one in history that could crank it and score like he could.

[SkyHookFTW]

I don't think there is a true comp because baseball and basketball are very different. EVERYONE who plays basketball has to play both offense and defense; that's just the way the game is designed. Obviously some have been better two-way players than others but every basketball player is in that pool. Very few position players in baseball also learn how to pitch at a high level - extremely few at the MLB level. It would sorta be like a Barry Bonds that also has the ability to pitch like Randy Johnson; someone who could hit like Bonds just wouldn't have the ability to pitch at the MLB level - let alone as well as the Big Unit. So the pool of players to even consider is miniscule in baseball compared to basketball.

Babe Ruth was a pitcher for five years, and an all-star pitcher at that. He even posted a 0.78 ERA in World Series games. So at least one person could do it and perform at a high level.

To answer the OP, Jokic comes to mind as does prime LeBron.

[LakerLegend]

The way Ohtani is getting his impact is absurd, but I wouldn't say his value is something that we have never seen before. The season isn't over yet, but if you look at 02 Bonds, he had a 12.7 WAR. Assuming Ohtani doubles his production (about half the season left), he would be at 12.4.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=2023

That is a very rough measurement though.

Sure but bonds was on PEDs

Doesn't stop everyone from loving LeBron James and Peyton Manning

[CP3nthusiast]

A better comp would be a top 5 QB who was also a top 10 defensive end.