How many years of Jordan over ’23 Jokic?

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homecourtloss
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Re: How many years of Jordan over ’23 Jokic? 

Post#41 » by homecourtloss » Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:55 am

lessthanjake wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
parsnips33 wrote:Lmfao this definitely needed to become a passive aggressive Lebron thread, we don't have enough of those

If people stopped pushing obvious aesthetic double-standards then they would probably be called out less. Jokic has just seemed to bring out a lot of that in particular.

(Case in point: the Nuggets only go +1.5 when adding Jamal to Jokic, wow, guess Jokic must not scale that well to elite talent. :-?)


Except that that +12.05 with Murray is a really high number, such that they clearly functioned at an elite level together. For reference, in all his years with Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, and Kyrie Irving, LeBron’s teams’ net rating with LeBron on the court with those guys was only that high *one* time—with Wade in 2011-2012 (a shortened year where Wade only played 49 regular season games so the sample size was a bit small).And Jamal Murray in a season where he had to play his way back from a year and a half off with an ACL tear is really really not those other guys. The fact that Jokic + Murray coming back from an ACL tear can accrue a net rating together that LeBron only reached once in like 12 years with Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, and Kyrie Irving is actually strongly indicative of Jokic scaling really well with talented players in comparison.


Not sure where you’re getting this data from. Per NBA.com

2013 LeBron+Wade: +14.4
2012 LeBron+Wade: +13.6
2011 LeBron+Wade: +12.1
2023 Jokic+Murray: +12.1
2015 LeBron+Kyrie: +11.7
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: How many years of Jordan over ’23 Jokic? 

Post#42 » by lessthanjake » Wed Jul 12, 2023 2:50 am

homecourtloss wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:
AEnigma wrote:If people stopped pushing obvious aesthetic double-standards then they would probably be called out less. Jokic has just seemed to bring out a lot of that in particular.

(Case in point: the Nuggets only go +1.5 when adding Jamal to Jokic, wow, guess Jokic must not scale that well to elite talent. :-?)


Except that that +12.05 with Murray is a really high number, such that they clearly functioned at an elite level together. For reference, in all his years with Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, and Kyrie Irving, LeBron’s teams’ net rating with LeBron on the court with those guys was only that high *one* time—with Wade in 2011-2012 (a shortened year where Wade only played 49 regular season games so the sample size was a bit small).And Jamal Murray in a season where he had to play his way back from a year and a half off with an ACL tear is really really not those other guys. The fact that Jokic + Murray coming back from an ACL tear can accrue a net rating together that LeBron only reached once in like 12 years with Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, and Kyrie Irving is actually strongly indicative of Jokic scaling really well with talented players in comparison.


Not sure where you’re getting this data from. Per NBA.com

2013 LeBron+Wade: +14.4
2012 LeBron+Wade: +13.6
2011 LeBron+Wade: +12.1
2023 Jokic+Murray: +12.1
2015 LeBron+Kyrie: +11.7


I got it from www.pbpstats.com. Data like this often differs slightly based on little things like how FTs are counted when a player is subbed in, but it seems fairly obvious to me that the difference here is that the numbers you’re citing are just regular season numbers. Indeed, the above numbers are all virtually identical to the numbers my source has for the regular season. But the numbers I’m citing are for regular season + playoffs (which I should note I did make clear when I first presented the data on Jokic and Murray, prefacing the stats by saying “In regular season + playoffs”).
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
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Re: How many years of Jordan over ’23 Jokic? 

Post#43 » by homecourtloss » Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:21 am

lessthanjake wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:
Except that that +12.05 with Murray is a really high number, such that they clearly functioned at an elite level together. For reference, in all his years with Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, and Kyrie Irving, LeBron’s teams’ net rating with LeBron on the court with those guys was only that high *one* time—with Wade in 2011-2012 (a shortened year where Wade only played 49 regular season games so the sample size was a bit small).And Jamal Murray in a season where he had to play his way back from a year and a half off with an ACL tear is really really not those other guys. The fact that Jokic + Murray coming back from an ACL tear can accrue a net rating together that LeBron only reached once in like 12 years with Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, and Kyrie Irving is actually strongly indicative of Jokic scaling really well with talented players in comparison.


Not sure where you’re getting this data from. Per NBA.com

2013 LeBron+Wade: +14.4
2012 LeBron+Wade: +13.6
2011 LeBron+Wade: +12.1
2023 Jokic+Murray: +12.1
2015 LeBron+Kyrie: +11.7


I got it from www.pbpstats.com. Data like this often differs slightly based on little things like how FTs are counted when a player is subbed in, but it seems fairly obvious to me that the difference here is that the numbers you’re citing are just regular season numbers. Indeed, the above numbers are all virtually identical to the numbers my source has for the regular season. But the numbers I’m citing are for regular season + playoffs (which I should note I did make clear when I first presented the data on Jokic and Murray, prefacing the stats by saying “In regular season + playoffs”).


Ah—I just saw the earlier post. You don’t usually see people combine the regular season and postseason into one, so my mistake there.

As is, 2011-2013 James+Wade is +11.2 over 7,700 minutes, three regular seasons and three post seasons. 2012 James+Wade were +13.46. 2013 Wade+James were still at +11.1 even with Wade’s injury and falling off greatly in the playoffs as well as facing an ATG finals team.

AD+James minus the games in the bubble before the playoffs were at +12.2–12.4 or so without doing the actual algebra.

2016 James+Kyrie were +10.1 primarily due to Kyrie’s terrible defense: 117.8 ORtg, 107.7 DRtg with both ON COURT; 115.2 ORtg 101 DRtg with James ON and Kyrie OFF, +14.2 in about the same about of minutes. The offense scaled just fine and was better with Kyrie on Court with LeBron, but Kyrie being such a terrible defender brought down their net rating. In the post season, the offense was much better with Kyrie on court with LeBron (119.4 compared with 113.7),again scaling just fine, but the defense was much much worse (107.3 vs. 95.1). The Cavs were +12.1 in the post season with the two together on court, +18.6 with just LeBron and Kyrie off court. The net rating may not have gotten to the 12.1, though the finals team in which a good chunk of the minutes were played against were an all time great team compared to the one Denver played, I wasn’t due to anything about a lack of scalability on offense (they were better together, offensively on the court) but rather due to Kyrie’s porous defense. On the other hand, Murray probably played his best defense these playoffs, which was partly one reason why Jokic was a negative on court without him, a rather large negative on court without Murray there.

2017 James+Kyrie were +10.8 (+11.8 before the Finals in which they were a respectable -1.1 vs. the GoAT team) and it would be much higher without Kyrie’s again terrible defense. They reach all-time highs on offense together though with no problems of scalability (122.5 in the regular season, 124.8 in the postseason), and were +12.6 in just the playoffs, +19.3 sans the Finals.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: How many years of Jordan over ’23 Jokic? 

Post#44 » by AEnigma » Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:43 am

Jokic/Murray is just an offbrand Lebron/MoWilliams.

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