Where would ‘97 MJ rank today?

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal

Where would he rank?

The best player
49
46%
Top 5
41
39%
Top 10
16
15%
 
Total votes: 106

tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 91,984
And1: 31,586
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#281 » by tsherkin » Mon Jan 9, 2023 2:27 am

The Explorer wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
AEnigma wrote:But did you watch The Last Dance? Have you not seen the “and I took that personally” memes?? What more do you need?????


Indeed. That kind of BS belongs on the GB, not here on the PC Board, though, lol.


I never referenced memes, but how is referencing the last dance and his intangibles and mentality BS? Also, please explain why bringing up intangibles does not belong on this board.


The Explorer wrote:Best in the league.
I take it no one in this thread has seen the last dance and how many times MJ took matchups, other players getting recognition, fake slights, etc personally? He would use anything as fuel to propel him to be the best.


Because this is useless content. No one cares about how many times he "took it personally." What we care about has to do with things relevant to his play on the court, not purely subjective, after-the-fact stuff from how Jordan spun his own career. Yes, we're all aware that he took motivation from things such as you've mentioned. Not of that is relevant to the era-based rules differences, or how he changed his game as he aged, or the actual skills in which he demonstrated proficiency. It's just wasted text, not good debate.

That's why it doesn't really have a place here. If you want to discuss mentality, talk about his approach to the game. Talk about his commitment to getting to his spots. Talk about how he actively avoided three-point shooting. Talk about his dedication to volume scoring. Talk about his approach to defense. Talk about his phenomenal approach to conditioning after his second season. Talk about how his general approach to the game put him at odds with certain other types of players, changing your options for potential talent acquisition.

Stuff from The Last Dance is nice to hear in casual conversation, but like, in no way does it constitute effective debate in the context of discussing his translation to the modern era. It certainly does literally nothing to discuss where he might rank in terms of overall player quality in today's game in his 33/34 year-old 1997 incarnation.
OhayoKD
Head Coach
Posts: 6,042
And1: 3,932
Joined: Jun 22, 2022

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#282 » by OhayoKD » Mon Jan 9, 2023 3:05 am

tsherkin wrote:
The Explorer wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
Indeed. That kind of BS belongs on the GB, not here on the PC Board, though, lol.


I never referenced memes, but how is referencing the last dance and his intangibles and mentality BS? Also, please explain why bringing up intangibles does not belong on this board.


The Explorer wrote:Best in the league.
I take it no one in this thread has seen the last dance and how many times MJ took matchups, other players getting recognition, fake slights, etc personally? He would use anything as fuel to propel him to be the best.


Because this is useless content. No one cares about how many times he "took it personally." What we care about has to do with things relevant to his play on the court, not purely subjective, after-the-fact stuff from how Jordan spun his own career. Yes, we're all aware that he took motivation from things such as you've mentioned. Not of that is relevant to the era-based rules differences, or how he changed his game as he aged, or the actual skills in which he demonstrated proficiency. It's just wasted text, not good debate.

That's why it doesn't really have a place here. If you want to discuss mentality, talk about his approach to the game. Talk about his commitment to getting to his spots. Talk about how he actively avoided three-point shooting. Talk about his dedication to volume scoring. Talk about his approach to defense. Talk about his phenomenal approach to conditioning after his second season. Talk about how his general approach to the game put him at odds with certain other types of players, changing your options for potential talent acquisition.

Stuff from The Last Dance is nice to hear in casual conversation, but like, in no way does it constitute effective debate in the context of discussing his translation to the modern era. It certainly does literally nothing to discuss where he might rank in terms of overall player quality in today's game in his 33/34 year-old 1997 incarnation.

It's also worth noting this isn't necessarily the most objective potrayal of events. A quote like this probably paints a different picture than what one might get if they just went off the last dance to extrap. "intangibles":
“I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn’t do something. It wasn’t my fault.”

Simple narratives can set in easily, but reality is usually more complex.
ShaqAttac
Rookie
Posts: 1,189
And1: 370
Joined: Oct 18, 2022

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#283 » by ShaqAttac » Mon Jan 9, 2023 9:06 am

how is this thread still alive
colts18
Head Coach
Posts: 7,434
And1: 3,256
Joined: Jun 29, 2009

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#284 » by colts18 » Wed May 3, 2023 5:27 am

We are watching a non-shooter in Jimmy Butler average 36 PPG in the playoffs. If Butler dominates every single playoffs, I don't see why 1997 Michael Jordan couldn't do the same.
User avatar
CodeBreaker
Head Coach
Posts: 6,246
And1: 5,938
Joined: Jul 21, 2017
 

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#285 » by CodeBreaker » Fri May 12, 2023 9:31 am

Jokic is better
Image
BoonyPC
Junior
Posts: 399
And1: 21
Joined: Dec 13, 2009

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#286 » by BoonyPC » Fri May 12, 2023 11:01 am

I feel like he’d be a slightly better, healthy Kawhi

Which would put you Top 5 and with the right team, championship contenders/favourites/winners
colts18
Head Coach
Posts: 7,434
And1: 3,256
Joined: Jun 29, 2009

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#287 » by colts18 » Thu May 18, 2023 1:38 pm

Jimmy Butler again dominating in today's "modern" game while playing with an old school game. 97 MJ was 2 tiers ahead of Butler in terms of athleticism and feel for the game. If Butler can do this to an elite defense like the Celtics, 97 MJ could carve the modern NBA.
DQuinn1575
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,951
And1: 712
Joined: Feb 20, 2014

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#288 » by DQuinn1575 » Thu May 18, 2023 1:59 pm

BoonyPC wrote:I feel like he’d be a slightly better, healthy Kawhi

Which would put you Top 5 and with the right team, championship contenders/favourites/winners


A slightly better Kawhi would be the best player in the league.
ShotCreator
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,817
And1: 2,536
Joined: May 18, 2014
Location: CF
     

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#289 » by ShotCreator » Thu May 18, 2023 2:06 pm

colts18 wrote:Jimmy Butler again dominating in today's "modern" game while playing with an old school game. 97 MJ was 2 tiers ahead of Butler in terms of athleticism and feel for the game. If Butler can do this to an elite defense like the Celtics, 97 MJ could carve the modern NBA.

97 MJ was not tiered up over Jimmy Butler on athleticism, or even feel, I definitely don’t believe he was smarter or had better habits at all.
Swinging for the fences.
User avatar
GSP
RealGM
Posts: 19,561
And1: 16,035
Joined: Dec 12, 2011
     

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#290 » by GSP » Thu May 18, 2023 2:07 pm

BoonyPC wrote:I feel like he’d be a slightly better, healthy Kawhi

Which would put you Top 5 and with the right team, championship contenders/favourites/winners


Michael was a far better slasher and playmaker than Kawhi. With a modern offense and spacing and abundance of shooting talent every team has hes averaging 7-8 Apg most likely. Kawhi is an extremely novice and basic passer and playmaker and can still average 4-5 Apg w/ the spacing and shooting he has

Raps and Clips Kawhi w/ the offensive burden prolly isnt even the better defender either altho still good. His defense just hasnt been close to what it was in San Antonio. A historically great and loaded at every position defense in Toronto fooled ppl but their defense got better next season w/o Kawhi and w/ Og while also losing the best 3&d and all defense Sg defender Danny Green

His Clips defenses w/ a premier wing defender in Pg13 - whos been the better defender since theyve been together- have been extremely inconsistent and meh specially in playoffs
tone wone
Pro Prospect
Posts: 949
And1: 719
Joined: Mar 10, 2015

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#291 » by tone wone » Thu May 18, 2023 3:27 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
colts18 wrote:Jimmy Butler again dominating in today's "modern" game while playing with an old school game. 97 MJ was 2 tiers ahead of Butler in terms of athleticism and feel for the game. If Butler can do this to an elite defense like the Celtics, 97 MJ could carve the modern NBA.

97 MJ was not tiered up over Jimmy Butler on athleticism, or even feel, I definitely don’t believe he was smarter or had better habits at all.

Yeah 97 was the year he lost a lot of his hops and was really ground bound.
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I don’t think LeBron was as good a point guard as Mo Williams for the point guard play not counting the scoring threat. In other words in a non shooting Rondo like role Mo Williams would be better than LeBron.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 91,984
And1: 31,586
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#292 » by tsherkin » Thu May 18, 2023 3:49 pm

tone wone wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:
colts18 wrote:Jimmy Butler again dominating in today's "modern" game while playing with an old school game. 97 MJ was 2 tiers ahead of Butler in terms of athleticism and feel for the game. If Butler can do this to an elite defense like the Celtics, 97 MJ could carve the modern NBA.

97 MJ was not tiered up over Jimmy Butler on athleticism, or even feel, I definitely don’t believe he was smarter or had better habits at all.

Yeah 97 was the year he lost a lot of his hops and was really ground bound.


Was still quite athletic, though, and an insane mid-range shooter.
1993Playoffs
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,085
And1: 4,247
Joined: Apr 25, 2017

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#293 » by 1993Playoffs » Thu May 18, 2023 4:42 pm

tsherkin wrote:
tone wone wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:97 MJ was not tiered up over Jimmy Butler on athleticism, or even feel, I definitely don’t believe he was smarter or had better habits at all.

Yeah 97 was the year he lost a lot of his hops and was really ground bound.


Was still quite athletic, though, and an insane mid-range shooter.


I think he’d be behind Jokic and maybe Butler and not sure about Curry. I think that’s fair
magicman1978
Analyst
Posts: 3,158
And1: 2,123
Joined: Dec 27, 2005
     

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#294 » by magicman1978 » Thu May 18, 2023 4:46 pm

tsherkin wrote:
tone wone wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:97 MJ was not tiered up over Jimmy Butler on athleticism, or even feel, I definitely don’t believe he was smarter or had better habits at all.

Yeah 97 was the year he lost a lot of his hops and was really ground bound.


Was still quite athletic, though, and an insane mid-range shooter.


Yeah, I think he was shiftier/quicker than Jimmy as well. Jimmy also has a lower than average standing reach (8'5.5") and wingspan (6'7.5") for someone his height. Wade for example had a 8'6" standing reach and 6'10.75". So another advantage for Jordan.

Which makes it all the more amazing what Jimmy is able to do.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 91,984
And1: 31,586
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#295 » by tsherkin » Thu May 18, 2023 7:26 pm

magicman1978 wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
tone wone wrote:Yeah 97 was the year he lost a lot of his hops and was really ground bound.


Was still quite athletic, though, and an insane mid-range shooter.


Yeah, I think he was shiftier/quicker than Jimmy as well. Jimmy also has a lower than average standing reach (8'5.5") and wingspan (6'7.5") for someone his height. Wade for example had a 8'6" standing reach and 6'10.75". So another advantage for Jordan.

Which makes it all the more amazing what Jimmy is able to do.


Aggression with solid size and good athleticism goes a long way. Of course, playoff Jimmy isnt the same as RS Jimmy, either. He is definitely better in the playoffs. And has been shooting the lights out from all over this postseason, at that.

1993Playoffs wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
tone wone wrote:Yeah 97 was the year he lost a lot of his hops and was really ground bound.


Was still quite athletic, though, and an insane mid-range shooter.


I think he’d be behind Jokic and maybe Butler and not sure about Curry. I think that’s fair




Dunno where I'd put MJ. Kind of depends on what he does differently and how he responds to this environment. Directly translated, he'd be like Demar DeRozan but a little less efficient, but obviously I dont think anyone believes that would be the case. I think he'd a few more threes, see his FG% at the rim rise and would surely benefit from all the transition action we see at the higher tempo today vs in 97.

Curry just posted a 29/6/6 season on almost 66% TS, and had immense gravity as soon as he crossed the halfcourt line, shooting almost 43% on over 11 3PA/g. It's hard to envision 97 Jordan being better than that, at least for me.

Still, top 5 makes some sense. Overall depends on how well his D translates and of course postseason and all that. I waffle because there are so many what-ifs to consider.
OhayoKD
Head Coach
Posts: 6,042
And1: 3,932
Joined: Jun 22, 2022

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#296 » by OhayoKD » Sat May 20, 2023 12:40 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
colts18 wrote:Jimmy Butler again dominating in today's "modern" game while playing with an old school game. 97 MJ was 2 tiers ahead of Butler in terms of athleticism and feel for the game. If Butler can do this to an elite defense like the Celtics, 97 MJ could carve the modern NBA.

97 MJ was not tiered up over Jimmy Butler on athleticism, or even feel, I definitely don’t believe he was smarter or had better habits at all.

Butler's production is also dramatically worse than Mike's when you account for box-inflation. Not sure why people keep comparing his raw numbers historically.
ty 4191
Veteran
Posts: 2,598
And1: 2,017
Joined: Feb 18, 2021
   

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#297 » by ty 4191 » Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:56 am

Wrong post. Deleted. Sorry!
Pelly24
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,886
And1: 4,824
Joined: Aug 02, 2016
     

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#298 » by Pelly24 » Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:52 am

tone wone wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:
colts18 wrote:Jimmy Butler again dominating in today's "modern" game while playing with an old school game. 97 MJ was 2 tiers ahead of Butler in terms of athleticism and feel for the game. If Butler can do this to an elite defense like the Celtics, 97 MJ could carve the modern NBA.

97 MJ was not tiered up over Jimmy Butler on athleticism, or even feel, I definitely don’t believe he was smarter or had better habits at all.

Yeah 97 was the year he lost a lot of his hops and was really ground bound.



This is an interesting one. MJ had an extreme outlier finishing season on the bad side for him, making just 55% of his shots at the rim (!!!). With that said, he had 565 rim attempts at 63% with much, much less spacing than today at age 34-35 during the 1997-1998 season, so with spacing today, I'd bet that's at least mid-high 60s (conservatively) at the rim on SGA type volume. He also had 100 dunks that year, which is a big man total. From the eye test, MJ had a better first step and was still infinitely more flexible than Jimmy. At worst, I say their athletic ability at this point was similar.

As for where MJ would rank now, clearly better than Embiid and Steph, and I'll say even Luka ... Idk about Giannis, definitely not Jokic.

MJ would be a top 3 player
lessthanjake
Analyst
Posts: 3,082
And1: 2,826
Joined: Apr 13, 2013

Re: Where would ‘97 MJ rank today? 

Post#299 » by lessthanjake » Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:56 am

He’d basically be a healthy Kawhi Leonard with substantially better court vision and more competitive drive (not that Kawhi is necessarily lacking in that, but Jordan was basically an insane person).
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.

Return to Player Comparisons