What was Manu in 03 because i think things are getting a bit mixed up here...therealbig3 wrote:OhayoKD wrote:therealbig3 wrote: A motivated Shaq was pretty dominant defensively within their era...yes
Unless you're cherry-picking the 2000 regular season and mixing it with the 2001 playoffs(cough grant cough), I'm not sure how you get there. Over a larger sample the Lakers were actually worse defensively with him.therealbig3 wrote:
1. So does Shaq
1. Not as strong(or consistently strong) as Duncan no.2. So? And I'd argue that's only on defense. Duncan isn't a good enough offensive hub to have a modern offense run through him imo. The Spurs' best offensive seasons happened after Duncan became a role player on offense and ball/player movement and offense by committee became the focus. The best team during the Duncan era may very well be the 2014 team, the one where Duncan played by far the smallest role. Shaq is actually good enough that you could still have him as the anchor of a great offensive team today
I guess if you disregard passing, shooting, ball-handling...3. Why is it Kobe's impact is captured by Shaq, but Duncan's is getting cannibalized? Why isn't Duncan ALSO capturing Manu's/Parker's impact? Why isn't Kobe cannibalizing Shaq's impact? This is just semantics, both of them got the chance to play with great players that made their lives easier. And the combo of Manu and Parker more than makes up for the presence of Kobe imo. Kobe is better than either, but he's one player, while Duncan had the benefit of two really talented guards.
Well depends on the year but
A. Kobe is better than Manu and Parker
B. At least for 2003, the Spurs were unaffected by rookie Many's absence over a decent sample. Duncan also literally won two rings without him. What has shaq done without all-time playmaking guards?4. I agree with defense, that's obvious, but I strongly disagree with off ball scoring. Shaq was a monster off ball, and it's probably the main reason he's one of the greatest offensive players of all time. He was dominant as a 1 on 1 post scorer with the ball in his hands, true, but his movement, sealing, positioning, and offensive rebounding were GOAT-level too. Shaq's off ball game was harder to stop than his on ball game imo. Duncan didn't pressure defenses the same way with his off ball or on ball game.
That reads to me like "one of the greatest scorers of all-time". He still has massive deficits compared to proper offensive goats as a passer, facilitator, ball-handler, teammate ochrestrator...
Yeah, I don't think you've made a "good case" at all tbh.
Sorry for late reply, been busy and haven't checked in a while.
Not as strong as Duncan? I remember seeing RAPM data demonstrating early 00s Shaq as quite dominant and comparable to Duncan. I could be wrong here, can you post some numbers comparing the two?
Shooting and ball handling is irrelevant, since Duncan isn't good enough at any of those things to actually warrant featuring any of those things in a major way in a high level offense. I also don't think he was a better passer than Shaq. They were quite comparable. Shaq was more capable than Duncan as an off ball and on ball player offensively, that's not really debatable.
Kobe is better than Manu and Parker yes, but again, both of them together were better than Kobe. Manu especially, who on a per minute basis, was just as good based on the data.
Are we calling 2000 Kobe an all-time playmaking guard? He became one by 2001, but he was still very much "only" an All-Star level guard before that. Also, when Duncan won a ring without Manu...he was flanked by David Robinson who was still an All-Star in 99 (well not in 99 because there was no All-Star game, but he was an All-Star the year before and the two years after, and was still one of the best defensive bigs in the league even in 03). And it's possible that Robinson was actually the more impactful player between the two in Duncan's early years.
With regards to Shaq's offensive GOAT candidacy, I wouldn't actually pick him, but he's up there, and yes, I think it's entirely based on not just how dominant of a scorer he was, but the gravity he had as an offensive player and how it warped opposing defenses, and the fact that he was also a great passing big man who was excellent at finding cutters and shooters. That's legitimately his claim to fame offensively, so yeah, he couldn't shoot, he wasn't asked to create with the ball in his hands from 20 feet out, and he wasn't a volume playmaker, but he was still one of the best offensive players of all time...and it's well beyond what Duncan provided offensively.
Same with tony.
And david Robinson.
What version of these players was duncan playing with in 03?
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