Karl Malone v.s Kobe

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Who was better?

K.Malone
14
26%
Kobe
39
74%
 
Total votes: 53

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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#41 » by ceoofkobefans » Tue Jul 18, 2023 7:22 am

penbeast0 wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Being double and triple teamed is not gravity, sorry.


Fortunately Karl Malone never had to deal with that with all the great shooters around him like Eaton, Ostertag, David Benoit, Byron Russell, etc.

(Yup, more sarcasm.)


Bryon Russell was a good shooter and why don’t you mention other good shooters he played with like Hornacek Stockton Jeff Malone blue edwards etc
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#42 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:26 pm

ceoofkobefans wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Being double and triple teamed is not gravity, sorry.


Fortunately Karl Malone never had to deal with that with all the great shooters around him like Eaton, Ostertag, David Benoit, Byron Russell, etc.

(Yup, more sarcasm.)


Bryon Russell was a good shooter and why don’t you mention other good shooters he played with like Hornacek Stockton Jeff Malone blue edwards etc


My point was that Utah never had much front court scoring around Malone either. Russell was a guy who could hit a wide open corner 3 or a layup in transition; beyond that you weren't getting much. That's how Russell got most of his points and, as a career 12 pts/36 minutes guys, he didn't get that many.

If you consider the frontcourt players around Malone good shooters, you must have loved Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Luke Walton, etc. around Kobe and yet, somehow, they did double both players . . . a lot.
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#43 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Jul 18, 2023 2:49 pm

As a Jazz fan... Malone has no argument in this comparison, unless you value every game equal RS or not.

Malone as a regular season performer is probably a top 10 player of all time. But he definitely decreased in the playoffs a lot of times, and let us down when in mattered the most. Kobe was much more consistent than Karl Malone, and despite not having as great of a longevity he doesn't really have many collapses in the playoffs.

Malone was a very good man to man defender in the post, not a rim protector. But the same can be said about Kobe in his position. His man to man D was phenomenal at times, even if his help D was suspicious to say the least.

As I said it... OP confirms it. Kobe's ts% in the playoffs actually surpasses Malone's... also Kobe took care of the ball a lot better. Malone was sometimes a turn over machine. Kobe's TOV% is actually very very low, turning him into a much more efficient player than given credit for.
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#44 » by tsherkin » Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:01 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:despite not having as great of a longevity he doesn't really have many collapses in the playoffs.


I gather you mean other than 6 of his 7 Finals appearances?

As I said it... OP confirms it. Kobe's ts% in the playoffs actually surpasses Malone's


By about 1.5%, yes. 01-10, Kobe's at 54.8%. 88-00, Malone's at 53.4%. 48.6% eFG for Kobe in that time frame, 46.9% for Malone.

... also Kobe took care of the ball a lot better. Malone was sometimes a turn over machine. Kobe's TOV% is actually very very low, turning him into a much more efficient player than given credit for.


01-10, Kobe's at 10.8% TOV, which is quite good. 88-00, Malone's at 10.3% though, which undermines this point. Malone certainly had some bad games/series, but on the whole, no, he wasn't actually a turnover machine, particularly in the mid/late 90s. It was more true when he was hammering in the low post more regularly than when he started to PnR and pop more. You see a similar drop in Jordan's TOV in 1990 and beyond as he started working more off-ball and taking more jumpers. Still very good, but definitely not a pro-Kobe point in this particular comparison.
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#45 » by therealbig3 » Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:18 pm

I think suggesting that K. Malone was comparable to Kobe offensively pretty much means your analysis is flawed from the beginning and you're overly dependent on box score stats. Kobe was a significantly superior offensive anchor. He's closer to Curry (arguably better) than K. Malone is to him.
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#46 » by migya » Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:21 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
ceoofkobefans wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
Fortunately Karl Malone never had to deal with that with all the great shooters around him like Eaton, Ostertag, David Benoit, Byron Russell, etc.

(Yup, more sarcasm.)


Bryon Russell was a good shooter and why don’t you mention other good shooters he played with like Hornacek Stockton Jeff Malone blue edwards etc


My point was that Utah never had much front court scoring around Malone either. Russell was a guy who could hit a wide open corner 3 or a layup in transition; beyond that you weren't getting much. That's how Russell got most of his points and, as a career 12 pts/36 minutes guys, he didn't get that many.

If you consider the frontcourt players around Malone good shooters, you must have loved Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Luke Walton, etc. around Kobe and yet, somehow, they did double both players . . . a lot.


Besides Stockton and Hornacek, who had their weaknesses, Malone had none starter worthy to say the least, besides Eaton before 1991. Kobe had a ton more talent on his teams. It's not a right comparison. Shaq, a much better player than Kobe, always had more talent on his teams than Malone, besides his rookie season, and before 2000 only won for two seasons. Malone was carrying more than most bigs and players overall ever.

You can say he had Stockton, but many here have stated Stockton himself had some playoffs where he didn't perform well, so how did Utah win that much? How did they win like they did so many years? Whatever happened off the court doesn't count on the court. Malone is better than he's viewed as here.
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#47 » by tsherkin » Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:11 pm

therealbig3 wrote:I think suggesting that K. Malone was comparable to Kobe offensively pretty much means your analysis is flawed from the beginning and you're overly dependent on box score stats. Kobe was a significantly superior offensive anchor. He's closer to Curry (arguably better) than K. Malone is to him.


I think it's clear that Kobe had more dynamic elements to his game due to his playmaking ability and mobility as a perimeter player, for sure. I think you're probably dismissing Malone and propping Kobe a little too much with that specific phrasing. I can certainly see the pro-Kobe argument from an offensive standpoint, but Malone was an extremely good offensive player, most especially in the mid/late 90s, and that's reflected as much in Utah's team offensive success as anything as well.

TL;DR, I think it's a little more nuanced than you're making it sound, based on the way Utah performed and what Malone provided, as well as what Kobe achieved. Kobe didn't achieve higher peaks of team offense, nor longer stretches thereof, when he was an offensive anchor, and he did it in a more favorable offensive environment when he was the lead guy as well. And then if we start having the playoff conversation, that doesn't really help him a lot either, because he matches off earlier-round performance with Finals non-performance. It becomes, at least to me, a very interesting conversation.
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#48 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Jul 18, 2023 5:16 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:despite not having as great of a longevity he doesn't really have many collapses in the playoffs.


I gather you mean other than 6 of his 7 Finals appearances?

As I said it... OP confirms it. Kobe's ts% in the playoffs actually surpasses Malone's


By about 1.5%, yes. 01-10, Kobe's at 54.8%. 88-00, Malone's at 53.4%. 48.6% eFG for Kobe in that time frame, 46.9% for Malone.

... also Kobe took care of the ball a lot better. Malone was sometimes a turn over machine. Kobe's TOV% is actually very very low, turning him into a much more efficient player than given credit for.


01-10, Kobe's at 10.8% TOV, which is quite good. 88-00, Malone's at 10.3% though, which undermines this point. Malone certainly had some bad games/series, but on the whole, no, he wasn't actually a turnover machine, particularly in the mid/late 90s. It was more true when he was hammering in the low post more regularly than when he started to PnR and pop more. You see a similar drop in Jordan's TOV in 1990 and beyond as he started working more off-ball and taking more jumpers. Still very good, but definitely not a pro-Kobe point in this particular comparison.


Good point about the TOV%. Still when Kobe was creating his own shot I at least feel he doesn't commit as many TOs as Malone, as you said, operating in the post. And I feel that is a positive point when talking about #1 options. I actually remember some instances of Malone losing the ball operating in the post when we needed him to create his own shot, or believed that was the solution.
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#49 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Jul 18, 2023 5:18 pm

migya wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
ceoofkobefans wrote:
Bryon Russell was a good shooter and why don’t you mention other good shooters he played with like Hornacek Stockton Jeff Malone blue edwards etc


My point was that Utah never had much front court scoring around Malone either. Russell was a guy who could hit a wide open corner 3 or a layup in transition; beyond that you weren't getting much. That's how Russell got most of his points and, as a career 12 pts/36 minutes guys, he didn't get that many.

If you consider the frontcourt players around Malone good shooters, you must have loved Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Luke Walton, etc. around Kobe and yet, somehow, they did double both players . . . a lot.


Besides Stockton and Hornacek, who had their weaknesses, Malone had none starter worthy to say the least, besides Eaton before 1991. Kobe had a ton more talent on his teams. It's not a right comparison. Shaq, a much better player than Kobe, always had more talent on his teams than Malone, besides his rookie season, and before 2000 only won for two seasons. Malone was carrying more than most bigs and players overall ever.

You can say he had Stockton, but many here have stated Stockton himself had some playoffs where he didn't perform well, so how did Utah win that much? How did they win like they did so many years? Whatever happened off the court doesn't count on the court. Malone is better than he's viewed as here.


I have him in high regard. I have Kobe as top 10. I don't think Malone gets there. Yes I believe he has an argument for top 15 overall.

The 90s was a time the league was not as deep, and having Stockton and Horny is a good "big 3" to begin with. Having 2 all-stars was a luxury back then.
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#50 » by tsherkin » Tue Jul 18, 2023 5:27 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:Good point about the TOV%. Still when Kobe was creating his own shot I at least feel he doesn't commit as many TOs as Malone, as you said, operating in the post. And I feel that is a positive point when talking about #1 options. I actually remember some instances of Malone losing the ball operating in the post when we needed him to create his own shot, or believed that was the solution.


I think Kobe was a better isolation scorer, yes. Kobe was one of the best iso scorers we've seen. And in context, his TOV% is the more impressive for it, I'll agree with that for sure.

Utah made a clear leap when Malone started to be able to shoot more. My biggest wonder with him isn't about turnovers, or post versus pick and roll, though. It's what would have happened if he could have hit his FTs in big games, which was not a weakness Kobe ever displayed. Malone's FTr in the 97 and 98 Finals was .475 and .319. In 97, that was BETTER than it had been in the RS. Considerably worse in 98, though. But he shot 60.3% from the line in 97. He also shot 44.3% from the field, which was a tank job. He was at 78.9% in 98, and shot 50.4% from the field. Much better overall. His trouble in 98 was more that no one else showed up. Hornacek was the only other double-digit scorer over the series (at 10.7 ppg, though Stockton was close at 9.7 ppg). That was a flaw more in terms of how Utah staffed their roster than with Malone. He just didn't have enough assistance to compete with the Bulls as a solo act on offense. Scottie looked like crap that series but he and Kukoc were at least both 15 ppg scorers in the 98 Finals, and moved the ball well. Coincidentally, Jordan posted that sexy 51.6% TS (-1.3% rTS) in that same series, laboring with a lack of offensive support at a low tempo, 82 possessions per game). Makes you wonder, right? MJ wasn't exactly scintillating in his scoring efficiency when he posted a TS% of league playoff average in the 97 Finals either.

Certainly, you can say some stuff about Malone's iso game. It was ugly, it wasn't as effective as Kobe's. But his utility as a volume scorer was still there, and given that he was tasked with excessive usage, not as bad as his reputation suggests, and actually far more competitive than most seem to allow, IMHO. Again, I think the answer here is still probably Kobe, but Malone is one of those guys where I think he takes more of a hit than he should, I guess.
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#51 » by rk2023 » Tue Jul 18, 2023 5:28 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:despite not having as great of a longevity he doesn't really have many collapses in the playoffs.


I gather you mean other than 6 of his 7 Finals appearances?

As I said it... OP confirms it. Kobe's ts% in the playoffs actually surpasses Malone's


By about 1.5%, yes. 01-10, Kobe's at 54.8%. 88-00, Malone's at 53.4%. 48.6% eFG for Kobe in that time frame, 46.9% for Malone.

... also Kobe took care of the ball a lot better. Malone was sometimes a turn over machine. Kobe's TOV% is actually very very low, turning him into a much more efficient player than given credit for.


01-10, Kobe's at 10.8% TOV, which is quite good. 88-00, Malone's at 10.3% though, which undermines this point. Malone certainly had some bad games/series, but on the whole, no, he wasn't actually a turnover machine, particularly in the mid/late 90s. It was more true when he was hammering in the low post more regularly than when he started to PnR and pop more. You see a similar drop in Jordan's TOV in 1990 and beyond as he started working more off-ball and taking more jumpers. Still very good, but definitely not a pro-Kobe point in this particular comparison.


Good point about the TOV%. Still when Kobe was creating his own shot I at least feel he doesn't commit as many TOs as Malone, as you said, operating in the post. And I feel that is a positive point when talking about #1 options. I actually remember some instances of Malone losing the ball operating in the post when we needed him to create his own shot, or believed that was the solution.


cTOV% (adjusted for O Load) is a better measure of turnover economy.
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Re: Karl Malone v.s Kobe 

Post#52 » by Stan » Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:55 pm

Yikes

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