How much of a role does skin color play in guys like West, Walton, Bird, Stockton being considered basketball savants?

[MyUniBroDavis]

What's your problem?

If you don’t see what’s wrong with calling capela a foreigner and then instead of admitting ur mistake and saying my bad saying “eh you know what I meant” that’s an issue lol

I’m not even sensitive about that stuff for the most part but damn lol

I didn't call Capela foreigner, I just said it's tough for foreigners to live in Switzerland from what I've heard, even a generation or two after settling down. I have heard similar things from white people as well.

I’m assuming ur not legit racist but if someone is talking about discrimination capela faced, and you say

“We’ll they aren’t easy on foreigns”

And then when someone corrects you on it you go “eh you know what I meant”

Like, English isn’t ur first language, so I get why you said foreigns even though it does sound a bit weird, but like damn at least say, hey my bad lol

[falcolombardi]

Anyone who thinks race doesnt play a role in how people evaluate players IQ has never talked basketball with hardcore european ball fans, those guys will praise the incredible intellect of 100 random white euroleague players before admitting that maybe lebron is not just athletism and has atiny bit of IQ

[Harry Palmer]

I’ll say this about Bird, his highlights turned me around, I thought he was mostly just a shooter who got a lot of ref help, and I still think those are both true of him, but from watching old games and, yes, highlight on YT I have realized that offensively at least he was an amazing package. Like he might be in the conversation for best passer ever, he has these plays where a teammate fires a pass at him and on the move he just like redirects it to an open guy with one hand, he’s got a lot of them and I’ve never seen anyone else do that except maybe by accident. And he would also play games with defenders, faking passes then shooting over their turned heads, passing between their legs with regularity,I mean, on offence at least he was very, very legit. He still got a **** ton of help from the refs and his defence was really, really matchup reliant from what I can see, but was he Him out there? Based on highlights and player commentary, yeah, he was.

Stockton honestly doesn’t impress me too much except the stats and the degree to which legit players had very different takes than mine. But I dunno, some of it sounds like he got away with being dirty a lot and that might be pigment related. I know he was a Rockets killer, and maybe that keeps me at arm’s length.

Walton I think of as the NBA’s Bigfoot…there are all these rumours about how astonishingly good he was in brief snippets between the foliage, he’s kind of like a walking myth, and I have no way of evaluating how good he was or wasn’t or how much that depended on race. I know that great players talk about him as great, and they clearly know a **** ton more than I do. Maybe the one thing I can say from highlights is he was a very advanced passer for a big, but beyond that I’m looking for tourist brochures.

West, beyond being clearly admired by contemporaries I have almost no idea. I think he was supposed to be among the great shooters of his era, but if you told me that’s wrong I wouldn’t argue. I only ever knew about him as an exec, and even there his accomplishments were mostly in the rear view, so…dunno. Must have been smart.

So the only one I feel confident saying was a truly fantastic player that would translate to this era just fine is Bird, and that’s just on offence. I think probably Stockton belongs in the conversation about best ever at the position based on stats alone, but I couldn’t swear how that played out or would translate, and the other two are just bylines to me.

[70sFan]

If you don’t see what’s wrong with calling capela a foreigner and then instead of admitting ur mistake and saying my bad saying “eh you know what I meant” that’s an issue lol

I’m not even sensitive about that stuff for the most part but damn lol

I didn't call Capela foreigner, I just said it's tough for foreigners to live in Switzerland from what I've heard, even a generation or two after settling down. I have heard similar things from white people as well.

I’m assuming ur not legit racist but if someone is talking about discrimination capela faced, and you say

“We’ll they aren’t easy on foreigns”

And then when someone corrects you on it you go “eh you know what I meant”

Like, English isn’t ur first language, so I get why you said foreigns even though it does sound a bit weird, but like damn at least say, hey my bad lol

OK, I can say "my bad" now. Maybe it is barrier language indeed. Maybe I don't fully understand the meaning of some words, apologies in this case.

Racism is something completely alien to me, I hope I don't need to "prove" on this board now.

[Harry Palmer]

I didn't call Capela foreigner, I just said it's tough for foreigners to live in Switzerland from what I've heard, even a generation or two after settling down. I have heard similar things from white people as well.

I’m assuming ur not legit racist but if someone is talking about discrimination capela faced, and you say

“We’ll they aren’t easy on foreigns”

And then when someone corrects you on it you go “eh you know what I meant”

Like, English isn’t ur first language, so I get why you said foreigns even though it does sound a bit weird, but like damn at least say, hey my bad lol

OK, I can say "my bad" now. Maybe it is barrier language indeed. Maybe I don't fully understand the meaning of some words, apologies in this case.

Racism is something completely alien to me, I hope I don't need to "prove" on this board now.

Nah, no proof required, just send us all a box of chocolate, regardless of colour (of the chocolate) and it’s all good.

[Jaivl]

Anyone who thinks race doesnt play a role in how people evaluate players IQ has never talked basketball with hardcore european ball fans, those guys will praise the incredible intellect of 100 random white euroleague players before admitting that maybe lebron is not just athletism and has atiny bit of IQ

God, so much this. NBA is a bunch of blacks that only know how to run and jump high.

And then, at the same time, every combo guard cut from the Petrovic cloth that can hit tough shots but cannot make a stop or break a play to save his life (Spanoulis, Navarro, etc) is a genius and a SAVANT.

[eminence]

I feel what y'all are saying, had a fair amount of that experience when initially introduced to the game as a kid by older family members. I'm thankful I got re-introduced to basketball by the crowd I did - we had 7 guys in our rented house - a Haitian (a Kobe guy through and through), a Nigerian (Lebron), a Serbian (our 6'7 3s team star who idolized Pippen and didn't really like any of the modern players), a Mormon (a Duncan man), an NYC Puerto Rican (Melo?, poor poor guy), and myself (KG) who were pretty passionate about the sport and one Indian guy who was deeply amused.

[KembaWalker]

I am just happy to live outside the US and to me all these race-related discussions are completely abstract.

Does where you live(somewhere in europe iirc) not have a heavy interest in soccer? Because I think coded language is talked about there

There is a heavy interest in football in Poland... but our national league sucks. We don't really have any significant problems regarding racism here, despite what you may hear in some media.

There is no such thing as countries that don't have problems with racism. You might be confusing that with countries where people are uncomfortable bringing them up (Canadians used to make this mistake years ago but I think everyone realizes Canada is as racist as everywhere else nowadays). Those countries are in worse shape when it comes to race relations than countries where it is discussed openly, like America.

Poland for example has a very legitimate and well known neo Nazi problem, the reason it isn't discussed as much is because it's not rare in that area of Europe and the victims do not have a large platform.

Just saying "we don't have a racism problem here" is a symptom of the problem with most of Europe. They haven't even reached the point where they can own up to it yet. Very behind

[70sFan]

Poland for example has a very legitimate and well known neo Nazi problem, the reason it isn't discussed as much is because it's not rare in that area of Europe and the victims do not have a large platform.

Well, I have no idea where you found this. Poland has a lot of problems (like all countries) and I think it's fair to criticize us for stereotypical look at races at times, but there is no "very legitimate and well known neo Nazi" problem in Poland.

I seriously have no idea where you found it and sorry but it's ridiculous. Poland is one of the most anti-Nazi country in the world - for obvious reasons. Unlike Amercians, we had to deal with Nazi occupation and we were the direct victims of Nazi Germany politics and ideology. So please, keep this bullsh*t for people who have never been in Poland and can't even spot it at the map.

[KembaWalker]

Poland for example has a very legitimate and well known neo Nazi problem, the reason it isn't discussed as much is because it's not rare in that area of Europe and the victims do not have a large platform.

Well, I have no idea where you found this. Poland has a lot of problems (like all countries) and I think it's fair to criticize us for stereotypical look at races at times, but there is no "very legitimate and well known neo Nazi" problem in Poland.

I seriously have no idea where you found it and sorry but it's ridiculous. Poland is one of the most anti-Nazi country in the world - for obvious reasons. Unlike Amercians, we had to deal with Nazi occupation and we were the direct victims of Nazi Germany politics and ideology. So please, keep this bullsh*t for people who have never been in Poland and can't even spot it at the map.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/13/how-poland-became-a-breeding-ground-for-europes-far-right/

[70sFan]

Poland for example has a very legitimate and well known neo Nazi problem, the reason it isn't discussed as much is because it's not rare in that area of Europe and the victims do not have a large platform.

Well, I have no idea where you found this. Poland has a lot of problems (like all countries) and I think it's fair to criticize us for stereotypical look at races at times, but there is no "very legitimate and well known neo Nazi" problem in Poland.

I seriously have no idea where you found it and sorry but it's ridiculous. Poland is one of the most anti-Nazi country in the world - for obvious reasons. Unlike Amercians, we had to deal with Nazi occupation and we were the direct victims of Nazi Germany politics and ideology. So please, keep this bullsh*t for people who have never been in Poland and can't even spot it at the map.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/13/how-poland-became-a-breeding-ground-for-europes-far-right/

Is this all you have? A few lunatics from independence march from 2017? I won't even start breaking down mendacities in this articles, because I don't have the time or desire to talk about politics on this board.

I have a better way to measure how many neo Nazi supporters in Poland. In 2018, estimations suggested that there were a total of 600 neo Nazis in Poland. In comparison, the number in Germany in 2019 was over 19 000...

[Harry Palmer]

Does where you live(somewhere in europe iirc) not have a heavy interest in soccer? Because I think coded language is talked about there

There is a heavy interest in football in Poland... but our national league sucks. We don't really have any significant problems regarding racism here, despite what you may hear in some media.

There is no such thing as countries that don't have problems with racism. You might be confusing that with countries where people are uncomfortable bringing them up (Canadians used to make this mistake years ago but I think everyone realizes Canada is as racist as everywhere else nowadays). Those countries are in worse shape when it comes to race relations than countries where it is discussed openly, like America.

Poland for example has a very legitimate and well known neo Nazi problem, the reason it isn't discussed as much is because it's not rare in that area of Europe and the victims do not have a large platform.

Just saying "we don't have a racism problem here" is a symptom of the problem with most of Europe. They haven't even reached the point where they can own up to it yet. Very behind

Ehhh, yes and no. Saying that all populations are racist is undoubtedly true. Saying they all have the same levels or have systemized it equally is very much not. I mean, there’s a reason that absolutely racist Britain still patrolled the Atlantic for decades just trying to stop the slave trail to the US and Brazil, there’s a reason Canada was at one end of the Underground Railroad and the US at the other, there’s a reason Branch Rickey specifically wanted to start Jackie Robinson out in Montreal. There’s a reason that otherwise playing very happy you’re here Brits rose up in opposition to the US demand that their bars and restaurants be segregated where the troops were stationed during WWII. There’s a reason that Hitler openly admired US racial policies/attitudes and ~ modelled the Holocaust on the US model, incorporating both the way black and native populations were disempowered and separated from ‘good’ society. And there’s a reason the US had by far the largest foreign Nazi party, and was Nazi Germany’s greatest trade partner/munitions supplier even as the bombs fell on London, and in some cases, Ford for example, somehow even after they declared war on the US. And never paid any price for same.

One stat that might interest you: black men are incarcerated at a higher rate in the US right now, modern day, than they ever were in Apartheid South Africa.

But okay, let’s take your premise that it’s all just a matter of honesty and somehow the silent racism is worse…how does that play out in your mind? Like for example how does the Holocaust happen if anti-semitism is commonly thought but not voiced out loud?

[kcktiny]

I’ll say this about Bird, his highlights turned me around, I thought he was mostly just a shooter who got a lot of ref help, and I still think those are both true of him, but from watching old games and, yes, highlight on YT I have realized that offensively at least he was an amazing package. Like he might be in the conversation for best passer ever

Yes he was.

Also keep in mind his first nine years in the league (1979-80 to 1987-88) Bird:

- won 3 titles
- played in 5 Finals
- was MVP three times
- was all-NBA 1st team all 9 years
- was all-defensive 2nd team three times
- over the 9 years among all players in the league ranked 2nd in points, 3rd in rebounds (2nd in defensive rebounds), 4th in steals, 6th in assists

He was great on offense and very good on defense (an incredibly smart defender), as complete an all around player as we had seen in decades. He was blessed to have good teammates but he was clearly the catalyst/engine for them all that time, and missed few games (an average of just 3 games/year).

Lebron, Kawhi, and Durant are all-time great SFs. But peak-wise Bird was every bit their equals, if not better.

[lessthanjake]

I think it’s less that certain great white players are considered savants when they shouldn’t be, as much as that some black players are not given that label when they probably should.

Like, in general, if there’s a player that is not particularly gifted in terms of athleticism but nevertheless becomes an elite player, obviously there’s something beyond athleticism that is making them elite. Part of that could, of course, just be shooting touch (which I’d classify as neither athleticism nor something that would get someone properly labeled as a “savant”). But in many cases, where a guy who isn’t particularly athletic is nevertheless an elite player, he probably has a through-the-roof basketball IQ. In that case, “basketball savant” seems like it’d be an appropriate term. And I think it is properly applied to a guy like Larry Bird, not a label improperly given to him due to skin color.

I think the inconsistency is more that black players don’t always get that label when the above logic suggests they should. Like, for instance, Chris Paul is one of the best players ever despite not being tall at all and, except perhaps in his early years, not being particularly athletic by NBA standards. It seems quite obvious to me that his basketball IQ is through the roof and that that’s a huge reason he’s so good. And, to be fair, I don’t think this goes entirely unrecognized—I’ve certainly heard Chris Paul be praised along these sorts of lines. But I do think it’s perhaps not quite as much as he would be if he had a different skin pigmentation.

I do also think that there’s an assumption among fans that white players aren’t athletic, which can lead to overestimation of their basketball IQ. Like, if you know how good a player is but you underestimate how athletic they are, then you’ll naturally probably overestimate their basketball IQ in order to explain how they’re as good as they are. This might apply to a guy like Jerry West, for instance, who actually was an athletic player (but not a guy like Larry Bird, who I think is properly understood to not be athletic).

[OhayoKD]

Well, I have no idea where you found this. Poland has a lot of problems (like all countries) and I think it's fair to criticize us for stereotypical look at races at times, but there is no "very legitimate and well known neo Nazi" problem in Poland.

I seriously have no idea where you found it and sorry but it's ridiculous. Poland is one of the most anti-Nazi country in the world - for obvious reasons. Unlike Amercians, we had to deal with Nazi occupation and we were the direct victims of Nazi Germany politics and ideology. So please, keep this bullsh*t for people who have never been in Poland and can't even spot it at the map.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/13/how-poland-became-a-breeding-ground-for-europes-far-right/

Is this all you have? A few lunatics from independence march from 2017? I won't even start breaking down mendacities in this articles, because I don't have the time or desire to talk about politics on this board.

I have a better way to measure how many neo Nazi supporters in Poland. In 2018, estimations suggested that there were a total of 600 neo Nazis in Poland. In comparison, the number in Germany in 2019 was over 19 000...

do you have that by percentage?

[PaulieWal]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/13/how-poland-became-a-breeding-ground-for-europes-far-right/

Is this all you have? A few lunatics from independence march from 2017? I won't even start breaking down mendacities in this articles, because I don't have the time or desire to talk about politics on this board.

I have a better way to measure how many neo Nazi supporters in Poland. In 2018, estimations suggested that there were a total of 600 neo Nazis in Poland. In comparison, the number in Germany in 2019 was over 19 000...

do you have that by percentage?

No, he doesn't.

If you want to discuss Neo Nazis in Poland or elsewhere, use the Current Affairs board.