KD vs Dirk at peaks

[OhayoKD]

If Durant doesn't join the Warriors and never wins a title would people look at Durant the same way?

What kind of question is that? Dirk did not win a title because he got lucky. He won a title because he was dominant.

Did Dallas win the Western conference because Lebron did not play to his normal standards? I am not sure why Lebron "not playing to his normal standards" is a given when the point of the game is trying to prevent players from doing those things.

No, Kevin Durant cannot do the same things Dirk does. Neither is Durant consistently a better defender than Dirk. There are many seasons where Durant is not a good defender.

I understand that Dirk was great in the 2011 playoffs but that’s just one run and even then Dirk himself wasn’t even that great in those finals relatively speaking. He also had his own struggles that aren’t really brought up (06 finals, 07 losing as a first seed to a 8th seed , 08 losing to NOH etc,)

I’m just not seeing what makes Dirk a better basketball player than Durant. KD is a better scorer, passer, shooter, driver, certainly peaked higher defensively. I don’t hold KD titles in high regard. I think they are comparable otherwise as playoff performers

Can we get over this idea that Dirk wasn't great in the playoffs until 2011? He led the playoffs in at least one box score composite in 4 different seasons. In the 2006 playoffs, he led the NBA in WS, WS/48, and BPM. He beat Tim Duncan on the road in a Game 7 by going for 37/15/3 on .684 TS% with zero turnovers and made a clutch 3-point play to send it to OT on the Mavs last possession of regulation. Then with the series tied 2-2 against Phoenix, he dropped 50/12/3 on .737 TS% with only 1 turnover.

From 2001-2011, Dirk put up a 24.7 PER on .584 TS%, a .207 WS/48, and a 6.6 BPM in the playoffs.
From 2011-2021, Durant had a 24.9 PER on .604 TS%, a .205 WS/48, and a 7.4 BPM in the playoffs.

Their prime box score numbers are near identical. And Dirk showed throughout his career to have better non-box impact, be it due to off-ball movement, gravity, defense, or better turnover economy that kept the other team from fastbreaking. He beats KD in peak, in 5 year prime, in 10 year prime, for career, pretty much any way you want to look at it.

Aside from his championship run, Dirk's mavs lost to the eventual champs and pushed them the hardest 3 seperate times(2003, 2006, and 2014). I'm not sure Dirk had the same level of help Durant had in OKC(and maybe he wins anyway if he doesn't ger hurt).

The idea that Dirk was a 1-hit wonder has always been nonsense.

[dooki667]

I just wanna give props to Jason Terry who played great 19 on over 60ts% not to mention a 122 o rating in the finals. Tyson Chandler Dpoy level was a beast on the offensive boards. The Matrix J Kdd. Deshawn Stevenson gad a 153 o rating off the bench in the Finals I feel like they constantly get lost but they deserve so credit and respect as well that's a good damn team

[Mogspan]

2011 Dirk put up all-time RAPM numbers leading the league with a massive margin between first and second. He led a team who was 2-7 when he didn’t play and had a point differential of -5.4 (RS) and -6.6 (PS) with him on the bench past 3 all-time trios (Kobe/Pau/Bynum, Durant/Westbrook/Harden, and LeBron/Wade/Bosh). 2014 KD played like garbage in the playoffs and 2017 KD was either the second or third most valuable player on his own team. This isn’t close to being close.

KD:

Shooting
Overall scoring
Defense
Passing

Dirk:

Rebounding


Dirk didn't reach his peak at 33, bro. He had a flash in the pan playoff run against teams that choked. Great player and more respectable than KD, but he's basically KD if you made him a quarter the athlete, a less talented shooter, and a less talented passer.

The analytics would say Dirk’s actually a better defender. Also, for whatever reason, Dirk did a lot more to make his teammates better on offense. He had a gravity that KD never did. I imagine part of that is due to better off-ball movement drawing the defense to him more. A lot of the time KD just catches the ball, then does a jab step or two to shoot over someone instead of working to get the ball in dangerous places and warping the defense.

Dirk also had much better turnover economy than KD. In KD’s 15 seasons he’s averaged 4.3 TOV per 100 possessions while Dirk in his 15 best seasons averaged only 2.6 TOV per 100 possessions. So while KD might average more assists, he’s also much easier to swarm and force into mistakes that can cause a fastbreak the other way. This is probably a big part of why Dirk does better defensively with analytics.

Finally, characterizing Dirk’s 32 year old season in 2011 as a flash in the pan is pretty ridiculous. 2004, 2006, 2008, and 2010, Dirk had a BPM over 9 in the playoffs all 4 years, a feat KD only managed 3x in his career. 2007 he won the MVP. In both 2008 and 2009, Dirk had a better playoff on/off than KD ever managed for a postseason. From 2003-2011, Dirk was consistently awesome in a way that KD never managed for any stretch his entire career.

I meant flash in the pan because I thought people generally over-indexed on the 2011 run when talking about Dirk's peak. I know Dirk generally was a very good playoff performer, and I'm skeptical of over-reliance on impact data, but I didn't know the data were so in his favor.

It's plausible to me that Dirk's presence commanded more respect in his era, but in an absolute sense, KD seems like the superior player if you parse their skillsets.

[Peregrine01]

When you compare skill for skill it seems like KD would win this handedly. But Dirk always seemed to be the better offensive hub. I think this was in part due to his position - bigs had to guard him which opened up the floor for everyone else. And it's probably also due to personality and playstyle - Dirk was much more inclined to play a team game whereas KD would often get tunnel vision and play one on one, icing out the rest of his team. The Harden/Paul Rockets almost beat those Warriors teams by luring them to do exactly that.

[Texas Chuck]

When you compare skill for skill it seems like KD would win this handedly.

Oh there is a clear bias towards "lots of skills" over actual impact. But just as we have learned that specialists as role players often are far more valuable than more well-rounded players, the same can be true with superstars.

peak Shaq did basically one thing. But you couldn't stop it. Nobody has an issue with that. So its odd that a player like Dirk who was the best PNR Screener in the world and the best high post player in the world at the same time, is dismissed by so many because he doesn't dribble as well as KD, lol.

[One_and_Done]

When you compare skill for skill it seems like KD would win this handedly.

Oh there is a clear bias towards "lots of skills" over actual impact. But just as we have learned that specialists as role players often are far more valuable than more well-rounded players, the same can be true with superstars.

peak Shaq did basically one thing. But you couldn't stop it. Nobody has an issue with that. So its odd that a player like Dirk who was the best PNR Screener in the world and the best high post player in the world at the same time, is dismissed by so many because he doesn't dribble as well as KD, lol.

Sentiment is right on. I'd still take KD though.

[OhayoKD]

Well for one thing if the team is 'more talented', but a bad fit, then it's a worse team alot of times. Secondly the talent is irrelevant if it gets hurt, as often happened to KDs team mates. That's problem 1.

His 2nd preposterous point is that KD has never succeeded without a 'better team mate'. Prime KD has had exactly 1 better team mate in his career; Curry. So that point is wrong too, I don't even want to hear the arguments he wants to advance about Westbrick or whoever being better than him. It's nonsensical.

Then there's 'weakest support cast ofall-time', which is equally absurd.

The only issue here was that OKC fit Durant extremely well

[One_and_Done]

Well for one thing if the team is 'more talented', but a bad fit, then it's a worse team alot of times. Secondly the talent is irrelevant if it gets hurt, as often happened to KDs team mates. That's problem 1.

His 2nd preposterous point is that KD has never succeeded without a 'better team mate'. Prime KD has had exactly 1 better team mate in his career; Curry. So that point is wrong too, I don't even want to hear the arguments he wants to advance about Westbrick or whoever being better than him. It's nonsensical.

Then there's 'weakest support cast ofall-time', which is equally absurd.

The only issue here was that OKC fit Durant extremely well

The lack of shooting certainly didn't.