RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #26 (Nikola Jokic)

[One_and_Done]

Zach Lowe was among the many commentators who called them out in it. It was blatant. But like what are they going to say? Of course they won't admit it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/denvernuggets/comments/djrpet/zach_lowes_wild_nba_predictions_espn/?rdt=49904

You replied to the wrong link earlier.

[SpreeS]

Nash from 27th to 24th
Stockton from 26th to out of TOP30???

...and I like it a lot. Ewing/Miller/Stockton are all from the same era and these two looked better as teams leaders than Stockton, especially in PO

[70sFan]

Zach Lowe was among the many commentators who called them out in it. It was blatant. But like what are they going to say? Of course they won't admit it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/denvernuggets/comments/djrpet/zach_lowes_wild_nba_predictions_espn/?rdt=49904

You replied to the wrong link earlier.

He called them out for tanking last games, not for being afraid of the Rockets:

The Nuggets could have snagged it last season but instead shamed themselves before the basketball gods in a naked seeding-manipulation scheme. Denver has the best home-court advantage, and it should pile up wins while its competition (Houston, Utah, and the Los Angeles teams) sorts out injuries and chemistry.

It's better to face weaker competition earlier. I don't approve it, but it was a logical move from them.

[One_and_Done]

That's just a snippet. He talked on his podcast about it, and why they did it. Lots of commentators did. The Nuggets were desperate to avoid Harden. Given how he would torch Jokic regularly it was easy to see why.

[Gibson22]

Ranking positions I don't like so far
1) Shaq too low at 8, I'd have him at 5
2) Garnett too high at 9, I'd have him at 14 I think
3) Robertson and West too low, I'd have in top 11, ahead of curry garnett bird and kobe
4) Paul too high at 20, I'd have him around 25
5) Pettit still not in, he's 23/24

[One_and_Done]

Ranking positions I don't like so far
1) Shaq too low at 8, I'd have him at 5
2) Garnett too high at 9, I'd have him at 14 I think
3) Robertson and West too low, I'd have in top 11, ahead of curry garnett bird and kobe
4) Paul too high at 20, I'd have him around 25
5) Pettit still not in, he's 23/24

While I hate where Mikan was ranked, this list is a vast improvement on the last one IMO.

[Gibson22]

What are the active guys left that you have in the top 100 and around what position?

[One_and_Done]

What are the active guys left that you have in the top 100 and around what position?

There's so many names I think it's too big a question to answer here.

[SpreeS]

Straight face I could call Miller as TOP 2 PO scorer of 90ies if consider Volume/Efficiency/Clutch situations

Miller 91-00 .604 TS 32.7pts/100pos

Hakeem 91-98 .567 TS 34.4 pts/100pos
Robinson 91-00 .541 TS 29.9 pts/100pos
Malone 91-00 .534 TS 35.4 pts/100pos
Barkley 91-00 .569 TS 31.1 pts/100pos
O'Neal 94-00 .568 TS 37.8 pts/100pos

for example Miller vs other alltimers guards

Miller 91-00 .604 TS 32.7 pts/100pos
Kobe 01-12 .546 TS 36.1 pts/100pos
Curry 13-23 .605 TS 35.7 pts/100pos
Harden 13-23 .580 TS 34.1 pts/100pos
Wade 05-12 .565 TS 35.2 pts/100pos

[tsherkin]

Straight face I could call Miller as TOP 2 PO scorer of 90ies if consider Volume/Efficiency/Clutch situations

Miller 91-00 .604 TS 32.7pts/100pos

Hakeem 91-98 .567 TS 34.4 pts/100pos
Robinson 91-00 .541 TS 29.9 pts/100pos
Malone 91-00 .534 TS 35.4 pts/100pos
Barkley 91-00 .569 TS 31.1 pts/100pos
O'Neal 94-00 .568 TS 37.8 pts/100pos

So, 3rd-lowest volume; banking on efficiency and not having to also anchor the D, all while playing on teams with better average talent and depth around him. An interesting way to argue for top 2 PO scorer in era. Or anyway, top 2 not including Jordan.

Reggie was very good, for sure, especially in the playoffs. The frame of this comparison seems a little limited, though

[SpreeS]

Straight face I could call Miller as TOP 2 PO scorer of 90ies if consider Volume/Efficiency/Clutch situations

Miller 91-00 .604 TS 32.7pts/100pos

Hakeem 91-98 .567 TS 34.4 pts/100pos
Robinson 91-00 .541 TS 29.9 pts/100pos
Malone 91-00 .534 TS 35.4 pts/100pos
Barkley 91-00 .569 TS 31.1 pts/100pos
O'Neal 94-00 .568 TS 37.8 pts/100pos

So, 3rd-lowest volume; banking on efficiency and not having to also anchor the D, all while playing on teams with better average talent and depth around him. An interesting way to argue for top 2 PO scorer in era. Or anyway, top 2 not including Jordan.

Reggie was very good, for sure, especially in the playoffs. The frame of this comparison seems a little limited, though

Do you understand how many less poss Miller needs to score 33pts compared to Malone 35.4pts? Yea its around 6 poss. Avg team would score around 6.5pts in these 6 poss in 90ies.

[tsherkin]

Do you understand how many less poss Miller needs to score 33pts compared to Malone 35.4pts? Yea its around 6 poss. Avg team would score around 6.5pts in these 6 poss in 90ies.

Yes, I do. And I consider Miller a more reliable postseason scorer. Of course, he didnt have a similar minutes load and only scored 25+ ppg in a postseason longer than 4 games once in his career, so it's worth mentioning that the rate is a bit theoretical to some degree.

And again, context. Reggie did almost nothing but run around and shoot, which exhibited phenomenal cardio but he also played half the game and had a very narrow responsibility profile. It does change things some. There are contextual details in play.

I understand you are describing scoring only, not total player value, which does make this more approachable, and Reggie was quite adept. But even still, a direct comparison based solely on his efficiency (which is what you've done here, essentially) is going to mean only so much, your remark about Malone notwithstanding.

[ty 4191]

Hi All,
I haven't been here in months. The fact that Jokic hasn't been elected yet is, frankly, absurd.

How many players, period, have had a 3 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!

Updated:

Consider that in the past 240 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.5/12.2/8.5 on +8.7 rTS% (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.5/12.2/8.5 in ANY 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.1 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for nearly 3 full seasons, including the playoffs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.8 PER across the last 240 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and Lebron James.

2. His BPM the last 3 seasons is 11.9, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 6 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .660 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .370 from three point range on very high volume for a big man. 



Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

[ty 4191]

Re: Jokic... league depth/quality/difficulty of domination. Which nobody here seems to consider. (Everyone acts like the league hasn't improved significantly over time, and compare stats and records 1:1, linearly.








Note: 120 international players played in the NBA last season. 120 players from 40 different countries. It really IS the best players from every corner of the globe now, compared to Jordan's time, when it was almost exclusively Americans, and, when the drawing pool of players was vastly smaller, by comparison.

Some facts for you:

-The last 5 MVP's have been internationally born.

-6 of the top 10 players the last 5 years (Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, Sabonis, Giannis, Doncic) are not American. Including the top 3 players, themselves.

-5 of the last 7 DPOY winners have been internationally born.

-Half of the All Stars of the past 5 years have been internationally born.

Basically, none of these superstars would have even been playing/did play when Jordan was in his prime.

[ty 4191]

My Voting Ballot:

1. Jokic
2. Pettit
3. Pippen

[Doctor MJ]

Induction Vote 1:

Barkley - 4 (trex, Clyde, OaD, rk)
Wade - 2 (AEnigma, Doc)
Jokic - 5 (HBK, beast, iggy, ltj, ty)
Harden - 1 (trelos)
Pettit - 4 (Samurai, Gibson, OSNB, ZPage)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Jokic, Barkley & Pettit:

Barkley - 0 (none)
Jokic - 2 (Doc, trelos)
Pettit - 0 (none)
none - 1 (AEnigma)

Jokic 7, Barkley 4, Pettit 4.

Nikola Jokic is Inducted at #26.



Nomination Vote 1:

Stockton - 5 (trex, beast, Clyde, iggy, Gibson)
Ewing - 4 (AEnigma, OaD, OSNB, ZPage)
Kawhi - 2 (HBK, ltj)
Pippen - 2 (trelos, ty)
Frazier - 2 (Samurai, Doc)
Miller - 1 (rk)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Stockton & Ewing:

Stockton - 1 (Samurai)
Ewing - 3 (HBK, trelos, rk)
neither - 3 (ltj, ty, Doc)


Ewing 7, Stockton 6.

Patrick Ewing is added to Nominee list.

[Doctor MJ]

My Voting Ballot:

1. Jokic
2. Pettit
3. Pippen

fyi I counted your vote ty on the basis of seeing you put thoughts immediately before your vote, but in general I'd like to see a Voting post, with the Votes in Bold separated between Induction & Nomination votes, and with reasoning within that post. I do this to make sure that someone coming in can quickly understand why a person voted as they did, as well as to make it as easy as possible for me to not miss votes.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Induction Vote 1:

Barkley - 4 (trex, Clyde, OaD, rk)
Wade - 2 (AEnigma, Doc)
Jokic - 5 (HBK, beast, iggy, ltj, ty)
Harden - 1 (trelos)
Pettit - 4 (Samurai, Gibson, OSNB, ZPage)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Jokic, Barkley & Pettit:

Barkley - 0 (none)
Jokic - 2 (Doc, trelos)
Pettit - 0 (none)
none - 1 (AEnigma)

Jokic 7, Barkley 4, Pettit 4.

Nikola Jokic is Inducted at #26.



Nomination Vote 1:

Stockton - 5 (trex, beast, Clyde, iggy, Gibson)
Ewing - 4 (AEnigma, OaD, OSNB, ZPage)
Kawhi - 2 (HBK, ltj)
Pippen - 2 (trelos, ty)
Frazier - 2 (Samurai, Doc)
Miller - 1 (rk)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Stockton & Ewing:

Stockton - 1 (Samurai)
Ewing - 3 (HBK, trelos, rk)
neither - 3 (ltj, ty, Doc)


Ewing 7, Stockton 6.

Patrick Ewing is added to Nominee list.

Doc, you've made a significant mistake here. You say Barkley had zero secondary votes...he had three from non-Jokic voters - Samurai, Gibson, and myself. That makes the final vote 7-7 between Barkley and Jokic and it should have gone to a runoff.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2319745&start=20#p108241033

Vote for #26: Bob Pettit. To state this upfront: I do not care about science fiction time machines whisking Pettit to 1923, 2023 or 2123. In fact, the sci-fi crowd still hasn't convinced me at all that such a time machine even exists. His era was also the weakest of the candidates currently eligible, which is why I am considering him now rather than earlier spots. He was a 2-time MVP and 10-time All NBA First Team and Second Team once. I will also concede that I never saw him play live. But his adaptability is extremely impressive to me. His first season was 1955 and Neil Johnston was the big star then (a broken-down Mikan came out of retirement to play 37 games in 56). But by 1964, Pettit's second to last season, he was competing against the likes of Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Baylor, Lucas and Havlicek. The league strength was much higher in 1964 than 1955 and yet Pettit was still All NBA First Team in 64. He was the bridge from the Mikan era to the Russell/Wilt/Oscar/West era and he was elite in both eras. He doesn't strike me as a flashy player at all, just a tenacious motor guy with solid fundamentals who can do whatever was needed.

Alternate vote: Charles Barkley. This was very tough for me since there are a number of people not nominated yet that I would prefer over the choices available. Kind of like an election where you don't like any of the candidates and would prefer to vote for none of the above. But since I can only vote for someone who has been nominated, I will give Sir Charles my vote. Elite offensive player with longevity. 1993 MVP and 11-time All NBA (5 first teams, 5 second teams and 1 third team), and led the league in TS% 4 times. Also an excellent rebounder in his prime, leading the league once and finishing in the top ten 9 times.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2319745&start=40#p108242545

VOTING: Pettit
Alternate: Barkley

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2319745&start=80#p108257017

Vote: Bob Pettit

Now that he's on the ballot, I think he has the best era-relative case given his individual statistical consistency and quality, relative longevity, and team success resume

Secondary Vote: Charles Barkley

Been pushing for him for a long time based on his astronomical efficiency and rebounding rates, not gonna stop now. Maybe this time is the charm!

In a few years, provided he continues at his current level, I'd probably move Jokic above Barkley. But not yet.

In light of this, I feel the current thread should be suspended and a runoff executed, because it's possible the outcome of #26 and thus the order of the list could be affected by this.

[AEnigma]

Induction Vote 1:

Barkley - 4 (trex, Clyde, OaD, rk)
Wade - 2 (AEnigma, Doc)
Jokic - 5 (HBK, beast, iggy, ltj, ty)
Harden - 1 (trelos)
Pettit - 4 (Samurai, Gibson, OSNB, ZPage)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Jokic, Barkley & Pettit:

Barkley - 0 (none)
Jokic - 2 (Doc, trelos)
Pettit - 0 (none)
none - 1 (AEnigma)

Jokic 7, Barkley 4, Pettit 4.

Nikola Jokic is Inducted at #26.

Doc, you've made a significant mistake here. You say Barkley had zero secondary votes...he had three from non-Jokic voters - Samurai, Gibson, and myself. That makes the final vote 7-7 between Barkley and Jokic and it should have gone to a runoff.

In light of this, I feel the current thread should be suspended and a runoff executed.

Going to emphasise this:

Pettit - 4 (Samurai, Gibson, OSNB, ZPage)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Jokic, Barkley & Pettit

Had one of you made Barkley your first vote, it would have gone to a run-off between two. Instead, it became a three-way vote.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Induction Vote 1:

Barkley - 4 (trex, Clyde, OaD, rk)
Wade - 2 (AEnigma, Doc)
Jokic - 5 (HBK, beast, iggy, ltj, ty)
Harden - 1 (trelos)
Pettit - 4 (Samurai, Gibson, OSNB, ZPage)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Jokic, Barkley & Pettit:

Barkley - 0 (none)
Jokic - 2 (Doc, trelos)
Pettit - 0 (none)
none - 1 (AEnigma)

Jokic 7, Barkley 4, Pettit 4.

Nikola Jokic is Inducted at #26.

Doc, you've made a significant mistake here. You say Barkley had zero secondary votes...he had three from non-Jokic voters - Samurai, Gibson, and myself. That makes the final vote 7-7 between Barkley and Jokic and it should have gone to a runoff.

In light of this, I feel the current thread should be suspended and a runoff executed.

Going to emphasise this:

Pettit - 4 (Samurai, Gibson, OSNB, ZPage)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Jokic, Barkley & Pettit

Had one of you made Barkley your first vote, it would have gone to a run-off between two. Instead, it became a three-way vote.

Shouldn't matter when Barkley has significantly more support when secondary votes are taken into consideration, and I wouldn't have made Barkley my second vote if I thought that's how things would be counted.

I stand by what I said.