At their Peak who had a better perimeter shot? Derrick Rose or Westbrook

[mdonnelly1989]

At their Peak who had a better perimeter shot? Derrick Rose or Westbrook

[OhayoKD]

westbrook more or less is the pinnacle of drose's archetype

[tsherkin]

In Rose's 2011 MVP season, he shot 85.8% at the line, 33.2% from 3, took 19.6% of his shots from 16-23 feet and shot 39.9% on them.

In Westbrook's 2017 MVP season, he shot 84.5% at the line, 34.3% from 3, took 16.7% of his shots from 16-23 feet and shot 34.5% on them.

From 10-16 feet, Westbrook was at 43.4% on 17.1% of his shots and Rose was at 43.7% on 10.5% of his shots, if that helps flesh it out at all.

Tepid 3pt shooting (4.8 3PA for Rose, 7.2 for Westie), though Westbrook was supporting a slightly higher percentage on 40% higher volume, so there's that.

Fairly similar overall, though. Not really a major separation. Rose was better at the line, Westbrook was actually doing better from three. Similar from the short mid-range, Rose with a notable advantage on long twos. But overall, quite similar.

[penbeast0]

And even the 3 point volume thing mainly disappears when you compare it to league norms as the number of 3PA between 2011 and 2017 rose 33% league wide.

[tsherkin]

And even the 3 point volume thing mainly disappears when you compare it to league norms as the number of 3PA between 2011 and 2017 rose 33% league wide.

Indeed, and Rose liked to shoot, so he not doubt would have scaled up his volume as well. The issue I was attempting to identify, though, is more that 3pt shooting propped up his volume a lot. You remove it for both of them to even things out and Westie goes down to 51.0% TS and Rose to 51.5%. He does have a small edge, largely because he was a 48.1% 2FG guy and Westbrook was a 45.9% 2FG guy. So volume 3pt shooting is actually what carried Westbrook's efficiency slightly ahead by that tiniest sliver of margins. It actually flips the script a bit if you normalize 3pt volume.

[Pelly24]

I just remember Russ' midrange feeling like more of a legit weapon than Rose's, regardless of percentages. I feel like he would hit turnarounds and pull ups and shots at more awkward angles than Westbrook. between 2014 and 2017, he basically could have stretches where he was a B-minus Kobe from that area while matching the difficulty and frequency. I remember Russ dominating games at times with his jumper in his three-year peak in a way I don't remember from Rose, who's shot always looked worse.

[tsherkin]

I just remember Russ' midrange feeling like more of a legit weapon than Rose's, regardless of percentages. I feel like he would hit turnarounds and pull ups and shots at more awkward angles than Westbrook. between 2014 and 2017, he basically could have stretches where he was a B-minus Kobe from that area while matching the difficulty and frequency. I remember Russ dominating games at times with his jumper in his three-year peak in a way I don't remember from Rose, who's shot always looked worse.

This is definitely not what was happening, though. Rose was brutally effective in the mid-range. Russ was quite good, for sure, but for much of that stretch, he was also useless from 3-10 feet and of course mediocre to useless past 15 or 16 feet. Our memory from watching is only so reliable, and tends to center around big games and success, rather than failures. It's very clear that Russ was not reliably/consistently better than Rose in the mid-range.

[Pelly24]

I just remember Russ' midrange feeling like more of a legit weapon than Rose's, regardless of percentages. I feel like he would hit turnarounds and pull ups and shots at more awkward angles than Rose. between 2014 and 2017, he basically could have stretches where he was a B-minus Kobe from that area while matching the difficulty and frequency. I remember Russ dominating games at times with his jumper in his three-year peak in a way I don't remember from Rose, who's shot always looked worse.

This is definitely not what was happening, though. Rose was brutally effective in the mid-range. Russ was quite good, for sure, but for much of that stretch, he was also useless from 3-10 feet and of course mediocre to useless past 15 or 16 feet. Our memory from watching is only so reliable, and tends to center around big games and success, rather than failures. It's very clear that Russ was not reliably/consistently better than Rose in the mid-range.

From 10-16 feet, Westbrook was at 43.4% on 17.1% of his shots and Rose was at 43.7% on 10.5% of his shots, if that helps flesh it out at all.


7% in fréquence of midrange shots is a pretty big deal. And then the three-point volume while being a bit more efficient is also big. Those two things combined (10-16 feet midrange same efficiency, but 7% increase in volume, better three-point efficiency on nearly twice the frequency) I think made Russ a considerably more dangerous jump shooter than Rose at their peak. He really closed out games with jumpers regularly his MVP year especially. Pull-up threes, stepbacks and fadeaways, and he took way more threes, and a good amount more short-midrange jumpers than Rose.

[tsherkin]

7% in fréquence of midrange shots is a pretty big deal. And then the three-point volume while being a bit more efficient is also big. Those two things combined (10-16 feet midrange same efficiency, but 7% increase in volume, better three-point efficiency on nearly twice the frequency) I think made Russ a considerably more dangerous jump shooter than Rose at their peak. He really closed out games with jumpers regularly his MVP year especially. Pull-up threes, stepbacks and fadeaways, and he took way more threes, and a good amount more short-midrange jumpers than Rose.

Russ was also taking 4.3 more FGA/g than Rose, and needed to shoot a ton to support that kind of volume. It certainly helped, though I don't think it necessarily means he was a better or more dangerous shooter so much as he was shooting more.

[Pelly24]

7% in fréquence of midrange shots is a pretty big deal. And then the three-point volume while being a bit more efficient is also big. Those two things combined (10-16 feet midrange same efficiency, but 7% increase in volume, better three-point efficiency on nearly twice the frequency) I think made Russ a considerably more dangerous jump shooter than Rose at their peak. He really closed out games with jumpers regularly his MVP year especially. Pull-up threes, stepbacks and fadeaways, and he took way more threes, and a good amount more short-midrange jumpers than Rose.

Russ was also taking 4.3 more FGA/g than Rose, and needed to shoot a ton to support that kind of volume. It certainly helped, though I don't think it necessarily means he was a better or more dangerous shooter so much as he was shooting more.

Yeah I just think it kind of showed in up in notable ways and at pivotal moments. I remember going to see Russ get a 45-point triple double against Boston and he just closed them out with like consecutive pull-up jumpers I think from 3. Russ would just legitimately turn into Kobe Bryant at various points between 2014 and 2017. people don't remember that as much. Rose, even the way he shot them was very straight up and linear and predictable in a way that Russ wasn't, even if the efficiency was similar.

[tsherkin]

Yeah I just think it kind of showed in up in notable ways and at pivotal moments. I remember going to see Russ get a 45-point triple double against Boston and he just closed them out with like consecutive pull-up jumpers I think from 3. Russ would just legitimately turn into Kobe Bryant at various points between 2014 and 2017. people don't remember that as much. Rose, even the way he shot them was very straight up and linear and predictable in a way that Russ wasn't, even if the efficiency was similar.

The latter part, I'll be honest, I don't really care about. That's more of an aesthetic remark than anything. Rose was a dangerous scorer in 2011 and nothing about him being linear or predictable was actually problematic. But Russ was having a wild year in 2017. Even more so when you realize no one had done what he was doing since 1962, and in a totally different pace/FG% environment. So there's that. He was insane, for sure. I think in terms of actual shooting ability, they were quite similar, but there were other things setting 2017 Westie apart from 2011 Rose. Westbrook, I actually believed deserved the MVP, for example.

[mdonnelly1989]

In Rose's 2011 MVP season, he shot 85.8% at the line, 33.2% from 3, took 19.6% of his shots from 16-23 feet and shot 39.9% on them.

In Westbrook's 2017 MVP season, he shot 84.5% at the line, 34.3% from 3, took 16.7% of his shots from 16-23 feet and shot 34.5% on them.

From 10-16 feet, Westbrook was at 43.4% on 17.1% of his shots and Rose was at 43.7% on 10.5% of his shots, if that helps flesh it out at all.

Tepid 3pt shooting (4.8 3PA for Rose, 7.2 for Westie), though Westbrook was supporting a slightly higher percentage on 40% higher volume, so there's that.

Fairly similar overall, though. Not really a major separation. Rose was better at the line, Westbrook was actually doing better from three. Similar from the short mid-range, Rose with a notable advantage on long twos. But overall, quite similar.

Nice breakdown. What you said here sort of solidifies how I felt too. Everytime I turned it around it felt like one guy was getting the edge over the other on Perimeter shooting, but never really did.