While Pippen and Stockton over Ewing both seem like specious arguments, I'm going to (mostly) focus on just the Pippen vs. Ewing comparison here in order to keep this post from becoming any longer than it's already going to be.
The Bulls and Knicks faced off in the playoffs six times during Pippen and Ewing's careers. I think it's safe to say that from 1988-1989 (the first year they met in the playoffs) to 1993-94, Horace Grant was clearly the best player on the Bulls after Jordan and Pippen, while most would agree that either Charles Oakley or John Starks was Ewing's best teammate over this sustained period of time, with perhaps some even prefering Anthony Mason. I want to briefly compare Grant to Oakley, Starks and Mason to examine Pippen and Ewing's teammate quality (excluding Jordan).
Regular Season
=============================
Horace Grant (1989-1994): 35.2 mpg, 13.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.2 spg, 1.1 bpg, 1.4 tov, 56% TS, 17.6 PER, 58.1 WS (.170 W/48), 2.3 BPM, 18.0 VORP
Charles Oakley (1989-1994): 32.3 mpg, 10.4 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.2 bpg, 2.3 tov, 56% TS, 14.0 PER 41.6 WS (.133 W/48), 0.0 BPM, 7.7 VORP
John Starks (1990-1994): 27.7 mpg, 14.6 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.2 bpg, 2.1 tov, 53% TS, 15.9 PER, 22.0 WS (.135 W/48), 2.4 BPM, 8.8 VORP
Anthony Mason (1991-1994): 27.9 mpg, 8.2 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 1.8 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.2 bpg, 1.5 tov, 54% TS, 11.8 PER, 17.9 WS (.130 W/48), -0.3 BPM, 2.9 VORP
In the regular season, Grant grades out as better than all 3 Knicks in PER, WS, WS/48 and VORP, and comes out better in BPM than all but Starks (2.4 to 2.3). FWIW, Grant also grades out as better in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM and VORP in the playoffs, generally speaking, for this period. I don't want to spend too much time focusing on Horace Grant in a Pippen vs. Ewing debate, but if you look at every Bulls vs. Knicks series where Grant was on Chicago's roster you'll see that he played well against them each year aside from the 93 ECF. In fact, other than 93, Grant had a higher GmSc than any of Ewing's teammates in every playoff series except for Mark Jackson in the 89 semifinals.
I want to hammer home the point about Grant (most likely) being better than any of Ewing's teammates these years, because it now begs the question....if Chicago consistently had the two best players on either team, and 3 of the 4 best players between both teams when they met in the playoffs, how/why were the Knicks almost always able to play them so tough?
If there was some extraordinary coaching mismatch going on in the Knicks' favor, then ok, maybe. But clearly the Knicks did not enjoy a huge sideline advantage during these years. So If Pippen was better than Ewing, and Grant was better than Ewing's teammates, and Jordan was better than all of them - the Knicks should have been getting handled rather easily every year with such a disparity in top end talent, no? But this just doesn't correlate with what actually happened.
Moving on from Grant's value relative to Ewing's teammates, I'll compare Ewing and Pippen directly in their head to head matchups
1989 Playoffs, ECSF
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Pippen (36.1 mpg): 14.8 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.7 bpg, 3 tov, 67% TS, 13.3 GmSc
Ewing (38.7 mpg): 21.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.8 bpg, 1.8 tov, 55% TS, 18.0 GmSc
1991 Playoffs, 1st Round
==============================
Pippen (40.0 mpg): 19.7 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.0 apg, 3.3 spg, 1.3 bpg, 3.3 tov, 55% TS, 17.7 GmSc
Ewing (36.7 mpg): 16.7 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 2.0 apg, 0.3 spg, 1.7 bpg, 1.8 tov, 47% TS, 8.9 GmSc
1992 Playoffs, ECSF
=============================
Pippen (42.3 mpg): 16 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.1 bpg, 2.7 tov, 49% TS, 14.9 GmSc
Ewing (41.1 mpg): 22.1 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 0.3 spg, 2.3 bpg, 2.0 tov, 52% TS, 15.9 GmSc
1993 Playoffs, ECF
===========================
Pippen (40.0 mpg): 22.5 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 4.0 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.5 bpg, 4 tov, 57% TS, 15.7 GmSc
Ewing (41.8 mpg): 25.8 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 1.8 bpg, 2.3 tov, 57% TS, 20.7 GmSc
1994 Playoffs, ECSF
=========================
Pippen (37.6 mpg): 21.7 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.6 bpg, 3.3 tov, 51% TS, 15.6 GmSc
Ewing (42.0 mpg): 22.9 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 2.9 apg, 0.9 spg, 1.9 bpg, 2.7 tov, 58% TS, 18.7 GmSc
1996 Playoffs, ECSF
========================
Pippen (42.8 mpg): 15.6 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 5.2 apg, 3.2 spg, 0.4 bpg, 2.2 tov, 42% TS, 13.0 GmSc
Ewing (41.4 mpg): 23.4 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.2 spg, 2.8 bpg, 3.8 tov, 53% TS, 15.0 GmSc
It looks fairly obvious that aside from the 3 game sweep in '91 Ewing outperformed Pippen every other year when their two respective teams met in the playoffs, and even '91 looks somewhat questionable if you omit Game 1 of that series (41 point blowout where Ewing gets in early foul trouble, plays just 27 min, and only takes 7 shots and no free throws - he'd average 22 & 12 w/ 2 blocks the next two games). The Knicks may have lost most of their playoff battles against Chicago, but it wasn't because Scottie Pippen was better than Patrick Ewing.
Granted, there's more to ranking any two players than how they fared against one another in head to head contests, but when Player A just outperforms Player B year after year head to head AND has a more impressive statistical footprint in a general sense (regular season and overall playoff output), it seems very unlikely that Player B was the better of the two. I know certain stats like BPM and VORP favor Pippen in a career sense, I'm just not sure that's enough to support the weight of the argument of Pippen being the better player, especially in their prime.
trelos6 wrote:Overall, my personal rankings say it isn’t close. Pippen with 6 weak MVP level seasons, Ewing with 3.
For example, we can look at MVP voting. This was actually the head scratching statement that prompted me to jump in.
MVP Voting
===========================
1988-89: Ewing (4th, 8 1st place votes)
1989-90: Ewing (5th, 1 1st place vote)
1990-91: Ewing (11th, 0 1st place votes)
1991-92: Ewing (5th, 0 1st place votes)
1992-93: Ewing (4th, 4 1st place votes)
1993-94: Ewing (5th, 1 1st place vote)
1994-95: Ewing (4th, 2 1st place votes)
1995-96: Ewing (N/A)
1996-97: Ewing (8th, 0 1st place votes)
1997-98: Ewing (N/A)
1988-89: Pippen (N/A)
1989-90: Pippen (N/A)
1990-91: Pippen (N/A)
1991-92: Pippen (9th, 1 1st place vote)
1992-93: Pippen (N/A)
1993-94: Pippen (3rd, 7 1st place votes)
1994-95: Pippen (7th, 1 1st place vote)
1995-96: Pippen (5th, 0 1st place votes)
1996-97: Pippen (11th, 0 1st place votes)
1997-98: Pippen (10th, 0 1st place votes)* (Pippen finished 10th in MVP voting, but only played 44 games this year)
Pippen had two top 5 MVP finishes (94, 96)
Ewing had six top 5 MVP finishes (89, 90, 92, 93, 94, 95)
Pippen received at least one 1st place vote in MVP Balloting in 3 years (92, 94, 95)
Ewing received at least one 1st place vote in MVP Balloting in 5 years (89, 90, 93, 94, 95)
Pippen received 9 total 1st place votes over his career
Ewing received 16 total 1st place votes over his career
I'm going to post Stockton's MVP votes here as well
Stockton
==================
1988: 10th, 0 1st place votes
1989: 7th, 0 1st place votes
1990: 9th, 0 1st place votes
1991: 12th, 0 1st place votes
1992: 12th, 0 1st place votes
1993: 10th, 0 1st place votes (received a single 3rd place vote - 1 point out of 980)
1994: 11th, 0 1st place votes (received a single 3rd place vote - 1 point out of 1010 points)
1995: 8th, 1 1st place vote
1996: 11th, 0 1st place votes
1997: 15th, 0 1st place votes
1998: 13th, 0 1st place votes
1999: N/A
2000: N/A
2001: 15th, 0 1st place votes (received a single 3rd place vote - 1 point out of 1240)
Stockton received 1 first place vote over his career.
Here's how they rank by MVP shares over their careers:
Ewing: 1.42
Pippen: 0.716
Stockton: 0.161
36 different players have won the MVP Award in NBA History. Ewing, despite never winning an MVP, is 36th in career MVP shares. I'm not sure how anyone can make a good faith argument that Pippen had more MVP level seasons than Ewing, much less twice as many. It seems like pretty much the opposite of what occurred in reality.
We can also look at RWOWY. I see someone posted the 5Y Ridge numbers for Pippen and Ewing already, but the Lasso and ENet sets have Ewing clearly ahead.
Ewing (RWOWY 5 Year Lasso)
===========
85-89: 59th
86-90: 70th
87-91: 67th
88-92: 40th
89-93: 12th
90-94: 1st
91-95: 9th
92-96: 8th
93-97: 6th
94-98: 13th
95-99: 39th
96-00: 41st
97-01: 72nd
98-02: 63rd
Pippen (RWOWY 5 Year Lasso)
==========
87-91: N/A
88-92: N/A
89-93: N/A
90-94: N/A
91-95: N/A
92-96: 72nd
93-97: 73rd
94-98: 18th
95-99: 19th
96-00: 13th
97-01: 53rd
98-02: 39th
99-03: 63rd
00-04: 70th
Ewing (RWOWY 5 Year ENet)
=================================
85-89: 52nd
86-90: 61st
87-91: 80th
88-92: 55th
89-93: 14th
90-94: 1st
91-95: 21st
92-96: 13th
93-97: 9th
94-98: 16th
95-99: 42nd
96-00: 44th
97-01: 68th
98-02: 67th
Pippen (RWOWY 5 Year ENet)
================================
87-91: N/A
88-92: N/A
89-93: N/A
90-94: N/A
91-95: N/A
92-96: 66th
93-97: 76th
94-98: 19th
95-99: 23rd
96-00: 19th
97-01: 41st
98-02: 39th
99-03: 61st
00-04: 65th
01-05: 62nd
02-06: 41st
03-07: 72nd
Pippen (and Stockton) over Ewing are a HARD sell for me. I just don't see it.