RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Walt Frazier)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
Vote: Walt Frazier
I'll pile on to the blowout here; Frazier was the central figure on a team that went to three NBA finals in four years and won two titles, and he did that while playing at a very high level on both sides of the ball. I think he's one of the five best players of the 70s, but he rarely gets recognized as such, so I think he's one of the more underappreciated star players in the league's history.
Secondary Vote: Anthony Davis
I reserve the right to change my mind next round, but my quick surface-level objective assessment is that Davis is the highest peak out of the other four guys on the ballot right now. But I really am not a fan of the guy, and he seems concerningly inconsistent in the playoffs so, by all means, tell me why I'm wrong .
Nomination: Rick Barry
So, prior to my vote, Gilmore/Manu/Barry were 3-3-2, and then it would be Gilmore/Manu 4-4 after secondary votes.
Doc has done a great job advocating for his guy Manu and, frankly, the more I consider it and the more I look at Manu's numbers, the more I think there's a fairly strong argument for Manu over Barry. Manu's RAPM for his career is impressive, and he's also got some strong WS/48, BPM, and TS numbers in a handful of important playoff runs, not to mention the +/- numbers Doc pointed out.
The only thing that's stopping me is that, however incorrect it might have been, I think Manu was always perceived as #3 after Duncan and Parker during their peak years together and, as such, I'm not sure teams ever focused their defenses on Manu the way teams usually focus their defenses on the other team's offensive focal point. If I am wrong about that, please tell me. ATM, I'm just hesitant to concede that Manu would've put up all of these excellent numbers if teams had been game-planning for him the way they would have for a LBJ or a Wade or a Harden or [insert other star player here].
In a similar vein, because Manu was never seen as #1 or arguably even #2, I'm not sure he ever played with the pressure that comes with that, the pressure of being the guy that gets blamed if the team loses. Duncan carried that weight for his teammates.
I'm just suggesting that the underrating of him throughout his career may have made it easier for him to do what he did.
OTOH, everyone always knew Barry was the guy in 1975 and he won that title.
So while I think Manu has a good case, and the conversation in this thread has me really thinking about it, I'm going to go ahead and vote for Barry again right now, which by my count ties it up at 3-3-3 and 4-4-4 after secondary votes.
So either someone else can break the tie or they can all be added to the next ballot and we can have a great debate.
Secondary Nomination: Manu Ginobili
I would've given Baylor a shout with this secondary nomination, but just in case it comes down to Manu and Gilmore, I want to be on the record stating my preference for Manu out of those two.
I'll pile on to the blowout here; Frazier was the central figure on a team that went to three NBA finals in four years and won two titles, and he did that while playing at a very high level on both sides of the ball. I think he's one of the five best players of the 70s, but he rarely gets recognized as such, so I think he's one of the more underappreciated star players in the league's history.
Secondary Vote: Anthony Davis
I reserve the right to change my mind next round, but my quick surface-level objective assessment is that Davis is the highest peak out of the other four guys on the ballot right now. But I really am not a fan of the guy, and he seems concerningly inconsistent in the playoffs so, by all means, tell me why I'm wrong .
Nomination: Rick Barry
So, prior to my vote, Gilmore/Manu/Barry were 3-3-2, and then it would be Gilmore/Manu 4-4 after secondary votes.
Doc has done a great job advocating for his guy Manu and, frankly, the more I consider it and the more I look at Manu's numbers, the more I think there's a fairly strong argument for Manu over Barry. Manu's RAPM for his career is impressive, and he's also got some strong WS/48, BPM, and TS numbers in a handful of important playoff runs, not to mention the +/- numbers Doc pointed out.
The only thing that's stopping me is that, however incorrect it might have been, I think Manu was always perceived as #3 after Duncan and Parker during their peak years together and, as such, I'm not sure teams ever focused their defenses on Manu the way teams usually focus their defenses on the other team's offensive focal point. If I am wrong about that, please tell me. ATM, I'm just hesitant to concede that Manu would've put up all of these excellent numbers if teams had been game-planning for him the way they would have for a LBJ or a Wade or a Harden or [insert other star player here].
In a similar vein, because Manu was never seen as #1 or arguably even #2, I'm not sure he ever played with the pressure that comes with that, the pressure of being the guy that gets blamed if the team loses. Duncan carried that weight for his teammates.
I'm just suggesting that the underrating of him throughout his career may have made it easier for him to do what he did.
OTOH, everyone always knew Barry was the guy in 1975 and he won that title.
So while I think Manu has a good case, and the conversation in this thread has me really thinking about it, I'm going to go ahead and vote for Barry again right now, which by my count ties it up at 3-3-3 and 4-4-4 after secondary votes.
So either someone else can break the tie or they can all be added to the next ballot and we can have a great debate.
Secondary Nomination: Manu Ginobili
I would've given Baylor a shout with this secondary nomination, but just in case it comes down to Manu and Gilmore, I want to be on the record stating my preference for Manu out of those two.
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
Indeed the recent threads boosted Manu up a couple of spots for me. Coming into the project I wouldn't have nominated him quite yet.
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
Just a few thoughts about Gilmore's lack of success in Chicago, as a Bulls fan(even though I wasn't alive when Gilmore was in Chicago, I've read about it and taken a special interest in it).
On one hand, Artis had the bad luck of being selected(in the 1976 dispersal draft) by a team that was in a bad place. The Bulls had had some pretty good teams in the first half of the 70s under Dick Motta, with Chet Walker, Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier, Bob Love, and Tom Boerwinkle. But Chet Walker had retired in 1975, and after a bad 1975-76 season, Sloan retired and Motta was fired. Bob Love was nearing the end of his career and was traded away midway through 1976-77. Van Lier stuck around until 1978, but he wasn't what he had been. So Artis arrived in Chicago at at a time when the organization was having to essentially start over with him.
That's a tough situation in any event, but the Bulls at this point in time were a pretty poorly-run organization. Arthur Wirtz had purchased the team in 1972 and rather than a single GM, there was a four-person committee where all four had to sign off on any move. By 1978, that was done and Rod Thorn was hired as the sole GM, a position he'd hold until the team was sold to Jerry Reinsdorf and his group in 1985 after Wirtz's death.
So you have a situation where the team needs to essentially be built from the ground up around Artis, and the organization is ill-equipped to do it. It wasn't a great situation for Artis.
On the other hand, there's always been a thought about Artis, somewhat similar to D-Rob, that he just didn't have the dog in him, he wasn't an alpha, he was too nice of a guy, etc. I've pulled some quotes from Roland Lazenby's "And Now, Your Chicago Bulls", a coffee-table book chronicling the first 30 years of the Bulls' history.
It was a bad situation for Artis, but it may also be worth considering the above quotes as well.
On one hand, Artis had the bad luck of being selected(in the 1976 dispersal draft) by a team that was in a bad place. The Bulls had had some pretty good teams in the first half of the 70s under Dick Motta, with Chet Walker, Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier, Bob Love, and Tom Boerwinkle. But Chet Walker had retired in 1975, and after a bad 1975-76 season, Sloan retired and Motta was fired. Bob Love was nearing the end of his career and was traded away midway through 1976-77. Van Lier stuck around until 1978, but he wasn't what he had been. So Artis arrived in Chicago at at a time when the organization was having to essentially start over with him.
That's a tough situation in any event, but the Bulls at this point in time were a pretty poorly-run organization. Arthur Wirtz had purchased the team in 1972 and rather than a single GM, there was a four-person committee where all four had to sign off on any move. By 1978, that was done and Rod Thorn was hired as the sole GM, a position he'd hold until the team was sold to Jerry Reinsdorf and his group in 1985 after Wirtz's death.
So you have a situation where the team needs to essentially be built from the ground up around Artis, and the organization is ill-equipped to do it. It wasn't a great situation for Artis.
On the other hand, there's always been a thought about Artis, somewhat similar to D-Rob, that he just didn't have the dog in him, he wasn't an alpha, he was too nice of a guy, etc. I've pulled some quotes from Roland Lazenby's "And Now, Your Chicago Bulls", a coffee-table book chronicling the first 30 years of the Bulls' history.
Reggie Theus[AG's teammate, 1978-1982] wrote:Artis was Artis. He was limited in his offensive repertoire. If you could just get him to catch the ball. Artis would tell me, "Reggie, don't throw me the ball when you're not looking at me. If you're looking over there, don't throw it over here."
Ronnie Lester[AG's teammate, 1980-1982] wrote:Artis was the elder statesmen of the team. A great guy. With his size and strength - he was one of the strongest guys in the league - a lot of guys thought he was too soft to be that big and that strong. They thought if he had had a mean streak or a nasty streak, he could have done anything he wanted to. But he was still a very good player.
Ed Badger[AG's head coach, 1976-1978] wrote:Artis always thought he was playing hard, but he wasn't.
Artis Gilmore wrote:Said Gilmore in 1980, "I play against guys who are married and have families. I'm not going out to hurt anyone. But I do try to make my presence known. Using brute force against Darryl Dawkins or Wes Unseld is pointless. They're as strong as I am. I'm more effective when I keep my head, think about situations and take advantage of them."
Rod Thorn[AG's GM, 1978-1982 wrote:My reason for hiring Larry Costello was that he had coached a big low-post player in Kareem Abdul-Jabbar at Milwaukee. Larry had been very effective in getting Jabbar involved at the offensive end of the court. I thought we should involve Artis Gilmore more on the offensive end, and I thought Larry could do that. Later, I learned it was more a matter of Artis' personality. He wasn't suited to being more involved. Artis didn't want to take a lot of shots on a day-to-day basis. I think Artis got tired. We didn't have a strong backup, and he didn't want to play 40 minutes a game.
It was a bad situation for Artis, but it may also be worth considering the above quotes as well.
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Vote: Walt Frazier
I'll pile on to the blowout here; Frazier was the central figure on a team that went to three NBA finals in four years and won two titles, and he did that while playing at a very high level on both sides of the ball. I think he's one of the five best players of the 70s, but he rarely gets recognized as such, so I think he's one of the more underappreciated star players in the league's history.
Secondary Vote: Anthony Davis
I reserve the right to change my mind next round, but my quick surface-level objective assessment is that Davis is the highest peak out of the other four guys on the ballot right now. But I really am not a fan of the guy, and he seems concerningly inconsistent in the playoffs so, by all means, tell me why I'm wrong .
Well, first off Davis has played in 55 of the 56 playoff games he's qualified for so if he's been healthy enough to get his team to the playoffs, injuries haven't been an issue there. His play has also been very good. Here are stats by season:
2015 (4 games): 28.5 PER, 7.4 BPM, +12.6 on/off
2018 (9 games): 25.8 PER, 4.8 BPM, +5.1 on/off
2020 (21 games): 29.6 PER, 8.7 BPM, +17.4 on/off
2021 (5 games): 20.9 PER, 6.0 BPM, +2.9 on/off
2023 (16 games): 24.0 PER, 5.7 BPM. +8.1 on/off
Career averages: 26.6 PER, 6.8 BPM, +11.1 on/off
He's actually been remarkably consistent. Kobe had a worse BPM than Davis' worst in 8 of his 15 postseasons. People want to act like he doesn't score enough, but he's top 20 in playoff PPG on top 3 TS% all-time for a volume scorer. And he shows up with elite defense every single time. There's really nothing to criticize in his playoff record.
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
iggymcfrack wrote:Personally, I’d feel that Manu’s career value is at the very least higher than a typical player who played 27K minutes since he showed the ability to play more minutes in the playoffs, and at least some of the reason for his fewer minutes was his role next to 2 other volume scorers. I don’t think he necessarily could have stayed healthy playing typical minutes over his 16 seasons, but I’d value his longevity as high or higher than say Frazier.
Yes, he certainly showed some upscaling ability. But even setting aside his theoretical ability to play more MPG in the RS, to me one of the major limitations on how much I value him is his availability. Even at reduced minutes, he perennially missed a lot of games. What I struggle with is how to balance that off against his PS play and his success in-role in those limited minutes during the RS (starting or otherwise).
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
iggymcfrack wrote:OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Secondary Vote: Anthony Davis
But I really am not a fan of the guy, and he seems concerningly inconsistent in the playoffs so, by all means, tell me why I'm wrong .
Well, first off Davis has played in 55 of the 56 playoff games he's qualified for so if he's been healthy enough to get his team to the playoffs, injuries haven't been an issue there. His play has also been very good. Here are stats by season:
2015 (4 games): 28.5 PER, 7.4 BPM, +12.6 on/off
2018 (9 games): 25.8 PER, 4.8 BPM, +5.1 on/off
2020 (21 games): 29.6 PER, 8.7 BPM, +17.4 on/off
2021 (5 games): 20.9 PER, 6.0 BPM, +2.9 on/off
2023 (16 games): 24.0 PER, 5.7 BPM. +8.1 on/off
Career averages: 26.6 PER, 6.8 BPM, +11.1 on/off
He's actually been remarkably consistent. Kobe had a worse BPM than Davis' worst in 8 of his 15 postseasons. People want to act like he doesn't score enough, but he's top 20 in playoff PPG on top 3 TS% all-time for a volume scorer. And he shows up with elite defense every single time. There's really nothing to criticize in his playoff record.
If anything, AD has been underwhelming in the regular season but leverages all his strengths more effectively in the playoffs. In 22,000+ minutes, BKREF has him at +1.5 per 100 on court (better if we take out the rookie year, of course). If you take out minutes played with LeBron, it’s between +.2 and +.6 on court depending on the source. This is not what one would expect from a top 40 type player. His regular seasons are bringing him down in these underwhelming impact sets.


lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.
lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
Induction Vote 1:
Frazier - 10 (beast, HBK, Samurai, Clyde, trelos, Rishkar, Dutchball, Ohayo, Doc, OSNB)
Miller - 2 (AEnigma, falco)
Davis - 1 (iggy)
Kidd - 1 (trex)
Walt Frazier is Inducted at #35.

Nomination Vote 1:
Artis - 3 (beast, Samurai, Dutchball)
Ginobili - 3 (HBK, iggy, Doc)
Barry - 3 (AEnigma, Clyde, OSNB)
Howard - 1 (trelos)
Schayes - 1 (Rishkar)
Baylor - 1 (trex)
Westbrook - 2 (falco, Ohayo)
No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Artis, Ginobili & Barry:
Artis - 1 (trex)
Ginobili - 0 (none)
Barry - 1 (trelos)
none - 3 (Rishkar, falco, Ohayo)
Artis 4, Barry 4, Ginobili 3.
Artis Gilmore & Rick Barry will be added to Nominee list. No new Nominee will be added next thread.


Frazier - 10 (beast, HBK, Samurai, Clyde, trelos, Rishkar, Dutchball, Ohayo, Doc, OSNB)
Miller - 2 (AEnigma, falco)
Davis - 1 (iggy)
Kidd - 1 (trex)
Walt Frazier is Inducted at #35.

Nomination Vote 1:
Artis - 3 (beast, Samurai, Dutchball)
Ginobili - 3 (HBK, iggy, Doc)
Barry - 3 (AEnigma, Clyde, OSNB)
Howard - 1 (trelos)
Schayes - 1 (Rishkar)
Baylor - 1 (trex)
Westbrook - 2 (falco, Ohayo)
No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Artis, Ginobili & Barry:
Artis - 1 (trex)
Ginobili - 0 (none)
Barry - 1 (trelos)
none - 3 (Rishkar, falco, Ohayo)
Artis 4, Barry 4, Ginobili 3.
Artis Gilmore & Rick Barry will be added to Nominee list. No new Nominee will be added next thread.

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
Doctor MJ wrote:Induction Vote 1:
Frazier - 10 (beast, HBK, Samurai, Clyde, trelos, Rishkar, Dutchball, Ohayo, Doc, OSNB)
Miller - 2 (AEnigma, falco)
Davis - 1 (iggy)
Kidd - 1 (trex)
Walt Frazier is Inducted at #35.
Nomination Vote 1:
Artis - 3 (beast, Samurai, Dutchball)
Ginobili - 3 (HBK, iggy, Doc)
Barry - 3 (AEnigma, Clyde, OSNB)
Howard - 1 (trelos)
Schayes - 1 (Rishkar)
Baylor - 1 (trex)
Westbrook - 2 (falco, Ohayo)
No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Artis, Ginobili & Barry:
Artis - 1 (trex)
Ginobili - 0 (none)
Barry - 1 (trelos)
none - 3 (Rishkar, falco, Ohayo)
Artis 4, Barry 4, Ginobili 3.
Artis Gilmore & Rick Barry will be added to Nominee list. No new Nominee will be added next thread.
Hi Doc - you missed HCL's secondary nomination vote for Manu in post #20:
homecourtloss wrote:homecourtloss wrote:Vote: Walt Frazier
ALT Vote: Reggie Miller
Nomination: Draymond Green
ALT Nomination: Manu Ginobli
Since his first nomination vote was for neither Gilmore nor Barry, I believe it should count, and Manu should be added to the current ballot in the new thread.
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
Hi Doc - you missed HCL's secondary nomination vote for Manu in post #20:homecourtloss wrote:homecourtloss wrote:Vote: Walt Frazier
ALT Vote: Reggie Miller
Nomination: Draymond Green
ALT Nomination: Manu Ginobli
Since his first nomination vote was for neither Gilmore nor Barry, I believe it should count, and Manu should be added to the current ballot in the new thread.
Wow! You're right. Okay, Ginobili will be added to the Nominee list too.

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
HeartBreakKid wrote:falcolombardi wrote:I am unfortunalte short on time to spend talking basketball so i will be brief
Vote-reggie miller
All time level playoff scorer with great (offense) portability and strong longevity, and unlike other "old" players his style of play fits perfectly in any era old or new
Unlike some other great scorers who were not great passers or on-ball playmakers for their teams say adrian dantley or george gervin. Reggie actually has the big impact signals leading a team offense run on par with many guys way more awarded than him (such as barkley)
His teams were not weak as he generally had some combination of high level players as mark jackson, rik smits or detlef schremp , but were not stacked with stars either with reggie being by far the epicenter of a top offensive team for a really long time
Compar3d to the other guys here who have big flaws in either longevity, durability or have a era handicap applied to them to some degree. Reggie fits the more boxes for me
Alternate: i cannot in good faith vote davis here with a durability/longevity that makes kawhi look like AC Green. And i am unfamiliar with many of the guys proposed here like hondo
I will avoid voting am alternate for now
If alts are a requirement then i will go with frazier who while mayve a tad mythologized on defense for me from watching film ( i think his style was made possible by the era dribble rules and limitationa) he seems like a tier 1 offense star whose offensive brillancy went weirdly under the radar
My nomination is russel westbrook
Not the best aging curve being arguably one of the few ever players to get less skilled as he aged so longevity is so-so. But the average prime year was really good. In some ways the apex of the inneficient scorer with huge creation archetype
And unlike what a lot of people would expect,he was able to be half of the motor of some truly monstrous offenses.
He is also a player with serious fit limitations (mediocre defender, bad off ball, not a top end om ball decision maker so his ceiling will always be lower than true offense mega stars)
But on aggregate i think the value he provided to legit contending thunder teams fron 2013-2016 and then as a floor raiser in 2017 before he started a not so gentle decline is worth noticing.
Would you put Westbrook over Davis?
Very possible, davis has too few healthy runs
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Walt Frazier)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Walt Frazier)
Well, we're now past a third thru, and 35 is a nice round number (sort of).......thought people might be interested in some demographics of the top 35.
Avg # of seasons played by the top 35
15.6
# of Spots in Top 35 by Position (Average rank of those spots)
PG - *8.5 (20.8)
SG - *3.5 (16.4)
SF - 6 (20.3)
PF - 7 (19.3)
C - 10 (13.9)**
*couldn't decide on James Harden, so counted him as half SG/half PG. Jerry West counted as PG, btw, and Tim Duncan as PF.
**It truly is a big-man dominated game historically (that's with putting Duncan in with the PF's).
# of Seasons played within each decade
40s - 3
50s - 13.4
60s - 46
70s - 47
80s - 78.1
90s - 108.7
00s - 105
10s - 116
20s - 30
Players per decade based on which decade they played the most seasons in [half credit if it's evenly split] (avg rank)
50s - 1 (16)
60s - 5 (14.2)
70s - 2 (15.5)
80s - 4 (14.1)
90s - 8 (21)
00s - 5.5 (12.4)
10s - 9 (23.9)
20s - 0.5 (26)
Avg # of seasons played by the top 35
15.6
# of Spots in Top 35 by Position (Average rank of those spots)
PG - *8.5 (20.8)
SG - *3.5 (16.4)
SF - 6 (20.3)
PF - 7 (19.3)
C - 10 (13.9)**
*couldn't decide on James Harden, so counted him as half SG/half PG. Jerry West counted as PG, btw, and Tim Duncan as PF.
**It truly is a big-man dominated game historically (that's with putting Duncan in with the PF's).
# of Seasons played within each decade
40s - 3
50s - 13.4
60s - 46
70s - 47
80s - 78.1
90s - 108.7
00s - 105
10s - 116
20s - 30
Players per decade based on which decade they played the most seasons in [half credit if it's evenly split] (avg rank)
50s - 1 (16)
60s - 5 (14.2)
70s - 2 (15.5)
80s - 4 (14.1)
90s - 8 (21)
00s - 5.5 (12.4)
10s - 9 (23.9)
20s - 0.5 (26)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/19/23)
Doctor MJ wrote:MrLurker wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:
Okay, if you're point is that it's more than just PER that overrated Drummond, you are of course correct.
My point is that it's problematic to say Davis > X because PER when we know that PER would say Drummond > X, when we know Drummond << X.
I'm not saying it's ridiculous to look at the stat and mention it in passing, but fundamentally, the existence of the Drummonds of the world makes it hard for some of us to be influenced much when we see anything favoring one guy over another.
Re: but there's no reason to think Davis is overrated by it. Hmm. That logic seems to imply that if you know a guy is great, and he looks better than someone else by a certain stat, then the stat must have some authority, and I would say that's false.
In the end, PER is just clumsily adding up box score stuff and can't really tell the difference between Davis & Drummond, which means it's just not that effective of a tool.
Not to champion this stat - I think I share your concerns - but wouldn't a great defensive force like Davis be underrated by a stat like PER?
Compared to another big who is bad at defense? Absolutely.
But bigs in general are not underrated by the stat.
Really? Reading this thread it seems BPM does underrate them - or at least the ones who exert value defensively.
Does PER work differently?
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Walt Frazier)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Walt Frazier)
Manu Ginobili meets Gary Payton. One of my favorite peak players ever, Clyde Frazier. Willis Reed was pretty damn good too, as was that team. But I really think Frazier in particular would kill it in any era. He is just such a valuable type of player no matter what. Peak wise he certainly belongs ahead of Kidd/Payton but career wise it becomes tougher.
Peak Frazier vs. Peak Pippen is a tough one, Frazier was so much better of a scorer so I’d go him.
Peak Frazier vs. Peak Pippen is a tough one, Frazier was so much better of a scorer so I’d go him.
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Walt Frazier)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Walt Frazier)
Doctor MJ wrote:....
Can you please start including the link to the full list here.
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Walt Frazier)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #35 (Walt Frazier)
mdonnelly1989 wrote:Can you please start including the link to the full list here.
Look in the stickied Projects list, it's the second project listed.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.