RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #38 (Jason Kidd)

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #38 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/28/23) 

Post#21 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Oct 28, 2023 4:52 am

Induction Vote 1: Manu Ginobili



Y'all have seen my argue blue in the face on Manu. Think I'll just leave it in Ben's hands here.

Induction Vote 2: Artis Gilmore

So, this is a flip because I was advocating for Rick Barry over Artis previously. Tough call between the two and I may flip again.

I might put it like this:

I think Artis was more valuable at peak.
I think Barry was a more resilient star.
I think Artis was better able to remain a positive contributor with time, on and off the floor.

While I don't think Artis was a superstar-level player in the NBA, and that is a disappointment, there's no doubt that his defense was valuable, and his high efficiency on limited volume offensive game was remarkably ahead of its time.

Nomination Vote 1: Draymond Green

Image

Much like Manu, I'm past the point with Draymond where I'm finding reasons to not take the impact indicators that seriously. Green's career is absolutely remarkable as the #2, and a strong #2 on the dynasty of the modern era. I see him as the best defender of the era, and I think his playmaking impact on offense is significant, as is his leadership capacity - though that's not always in the positive direction.

Last thing I'll say here is that I'm high on Steph, Dray, Kerr, and the Warriors in general. I think what they've accomplished is remarkable, and expect to champion them in debates like this...although as I say that, I'm not sure I have Klay in my Top 100. I think Klay's had a great career, but I think Steph & Dray have been the shoulders on this the rest of the Warriors ride on piggy-back.

Nomination Vote 2: Kevin McHale

Exceptionally scary opponent. Outstanding defense, and extremely effective as a volume scorer. Not to be dismissed.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #38 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/28/23) 

Post#22 » by LA Bird » Sat Oct 28, 2023 4:53 am

Vote: Artis Gilmore
Alt: Jason Kidd
Nom: Dolph Schayes


All time lists can often be hard because of cross-era comparisons but Gilmore vs Barry is pretty straightforward IMO. Both peaked in the same title season (1975) and Gilmore has consistently ranked higher by around ten spots in each of the last three RealGM peak projects. Both of their primes overlapped in the same league for a few years (1972 ABA, 1977/78 NBA) and Gilmore was the better player in each of those seasons. In terms of career longevity, Gilmore crushes Barry and it's not close. I guess Barry stands out more as a volume scoring perimeter player in an era where almost every MVP candidate was a center but unless we are taking into consideration value relative to position and era (in which case Dwight Howard probably goes above Wade for example), I don't see the case for Barry over Gilmore. Actually, the case for Barry over his own teammate Thurmond is already not that strong and Thurmond isn't even nominated yet...

Starting to see Schayes' name appearing in nominations so I'll vote for him now even though I don't have writeup ready for him yet.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #38 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/28/23) 

Post#23 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Sat Oct 28, 2023 5:31 am

Vote: Rick Barry

Difficult choice, but it became easier with the last two votes - a secondary and then a primary vote for Gilmore, which made it look like a two-man race between Barry and GIlmore this round. I appreciate Gilmore's talent, but I'm amazed he might get inducted(he's up 6-5 over Barry after my vote and with secondary votes counted) before Barry, Kidd, and even Manu(who I've been increasingly impressed with). His NBA career left much to be desired imo.

At any rate, Barry is the only one this ballot who led his team to an NBA title as the #1 option, so he gets my vote. I take him pretty easy over Gilmore.

Secondary Vote: I'm going to punt on this this round...it's a difficult choice and it doesn't seem like it's going to matter anyway.

Nomination: Elgin Baylor

At the moment, we have a five-way nomination tie, with Schayes, Baylor, Dwight, Draymond, and Westbrook having two votes apiece. I am going to break that tie, for now, in favor of Baylor. Dwight comes closest, but Baylor put up huge box numbers and was one of the top two players on a team that went to the Finals a bunch of times in the early/mid 60s, and he's also one of the most important players ever, the first perimeter star to play above-the-rim. Before Doc, before MJ, there was Baylor.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #38 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/28/23) 

Post#24 » by ShaqAttac » Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:06 am

VOTE

DAVIS

crazy d and good o and went crazy for a chip once. also busted the dubs for good. idk why no ones talkin bout him.

BARRY
i dont really know if hes the best, but he led a team to a chip so

I'm gonna nom

WALTON

chip and mvp and swept kareem. some ppl say his impact might have been even higher

WESTBROOK

good args were made for him carryin kd in okc and he won an mvp after.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #38 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/28/23) 

Post#25 » by rk2023 » Sat Oct 28, 2023 2:17 pm

Vote: Jason Kidd
Nominate: Elgin Baylor
Alternate Nomination: Russell Westbrook

Kidd has a great case for being the best guard defender in league history. Even with a player who had some clear drawbacks as a scorer, his amazing position-relative rebounding, transition ability, and exploitative - yet highly-proficient - passing made him a very impactful player both in Phoenix and in Jersey. Same applies even in Dallas as he aged and became a better shooter with less of a sheer offensive responsibility.

As proof of the latter, Kidd had a 11.4 net-rating swing from 2002-07 as a Net using RS + PS minutes in aggregate. Somewhat more than 10 points of this are on the offensive end (~105-95), showing his ability to floor-raise an offense through volume creation despite relatively unproductive scoring numbers. Before this span & mentioned earlier, his 1999-01 seasons are solid - and he seems to have been a crucial cog in the late 00s / early 10s Dallas teams - albeit as a less valuable player (playoff on/off looks great in the 08-12 span, while he scaled down).

As for Westbrook, his recent years and downturn as a player in some essence might lead people to forget how good he was in his prime (the 10s, pre 2019). For my 2 cents, he's one of the 10 best playmakers in NBA History - with a great Top 5 argument. In advanced creation metrics, he grades out top of the pack (unsure about era adjusted, still very impressive tho) due to how much pressure prime Westbrook could put on a defense getting downhill & activating a drive and dish game (he's made life easier for a lot of big men throughout their career). At his very best 3 year span from 2015-17, Westbrook was a weak-fringe MVP level imo. A decent, but not great defender, coupled with the ability to floor raise through an immensely high offensive and playmaking load.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #38 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/28/23) 

Post#26 » by falcolombardi » Sat Oct 28, 2023 2:57 pm

This is a tough one for me to vote as i am not as knowledgeable with many of these players

Out of the ones i know i prolly go

Vote: kidd
Alt: manu ginobili
Nom:westbrook
Alt nom: lillard

Jason kidd: his impact signals on team defense make no sense for a guard, and look like the profile you would expect from an all D big consistently being in great defenses which are heavily inpacted by his arrival or abscence. I wouldnt loosely say he had that level of impact but that the impact over the average guard is a needle mover is clear
Good prime longevity + a nice extended career as a impact role player as a little bonus
Really smart passer but scoring limitations made him a limited weapon offensively.

He has the feather on his cap of those nice 2002, 2003 and perhaps more impressively 2004 nets runs (where they gave the eventual champions all they could handle) as a team best player in a borderline contending run...which also means he never "proved" he could be the central piece of a legit champion level team (which someone like ginobili did in 2005)

Manu ginobili, my alt vote. Is someone i consider a better player at his best than kidd. Unfortunately for me, he only was clearly better in a few runs (2005 and arguments to be made for a couple other years) while having weaker longevity -and- durability. It doesnt help him he got into the nba in his near late 20's which costes him some nba logevity

I would have loved to put ginobili ahead, doubly so due to kidd being a rather questionable human being beyond the court. But his peak was so mercurius and short i gotta go with thw longevity guy here

Just a true best offense player in the league contender kind of player who was not even bad defensively. If limited by minutes

My alt vote for now is russel westbrook
Legit mvp impact at his peak (15-17 for me) with surrounding all star seasons like 13, 14 and 18.
His impact profile is not the easiest to build around but there is proof of concept of his rim pressure creation + floor raising scoring creating truly elite offense (scoring lots of points at slightly abbove average efficiency holds value when valued with quality shot creation allowing role players to score) in seasons like 2013 and 2016 (some of the most forgotten all time offensive runs when healthy) for which he deserves as much of the credit as durant imo

Unfortunately he is the only damn player i have ever seen to become less skilled with age so the league evolution passed him by. But it doesny change the impressive prime

My alt vote: damian lillard
Kind of a weird vote at this point maybe, but he has been an all star to all nba level of guy for a decade and aged well into his mid 30's. His bigger than normal playoffs struggles for most of his prime are a big deal to me which is why i am fully open to putting someon3 else here when i think it more in depth. So kind of a place holder vote for now until i think it more
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #38 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/28/23) 

Post#27 » by homecourtloss » Sat Oct 28, 2023 3:23 pm

AEnigma wrote:VOTE: Rick Barry
Alternate: Artis Gilmore

NOMINATE: Paul Pierce
AltNom: Elgin Baylor


Turning to nominations, I had a lengthier discussion on Pierce in the #35 thread. Have him right in line with Jason Kidd but am willing to defer slightly to Kidd on the basis of peak accomplishments (MVP contention, back-to-back Finals as the best player — albeit in the a conference that did not have any of the top three teams and probably not even any of the top four or five times). I do not see a meaningful gap in their respective RAPM values, WOWY values, number of seasons at a certain level of play.


Pierce, in general, seems to have underrated impact signals when it comes to discussing the usual impact monsters—you almost never hear his name mentioned yet…

Moonbeam wrote:Image


JE’s RS+PS 1997-2019 Career Set

Image
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #38 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/28/23) 

Post#28 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Oct 28, 2023 4:21 pm

Induction Vote 1:

Barry - 5 (Clyde, AEnigma, trelos, Ambrose, OSNB)
Kidd - 4 (trex, Samurai, rk, falco)
Ginobili - 2 (hcl, Doc)
Artis - 3 (beast, Ohayo, LA Bird)
iggy - 2 (Davis, ShaqA)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 Barry vs Kidd:

Barry - 1 (ShaqA)
Kidd - 4 (hcl, beast, Ohayo, LA Bird)
neither - 2 (Doc, iggy)

Kidd 8, Barry 6

Jason Kidd is Inducted at #38.

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Nomination Vote 1:

Schayes - 2(Clyde, LA Bird)
Baylor - 4 (trex, Samurai, OSNB, rk)
Pierce - 1 (AEnigma)
Howard - 2 (trelos, Ambrose)
Green - 2 (hcl, Doc)
Westbrook - 3 (Ohayo, iggy, falco)
Walton - 1 (ShaqA)
beast - 1 (none)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 Westbrook vs Baylor:

Baylor - 1 (AEnigma)
Westbrook - 1 (ShaqA)
neither - 7 (beast, Clyde, LA Bird, trelos, Ambrose, hcl, Doc)

Baylor 5, Westbrook 4

Elgin Baylor is added to Nominee list.

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #38 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 10/28/23) 

Post#29 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Sat Oct 28, 2023 4:31 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Induction Vote 1:

Barry - 5 (Clyde, AEnigma, trelos, Ambrose, OSNB)
Kidd - 4 (trex, Samurai, rk, falco)
Ginobili - 2 (hcl, Doc)
Artis - 3 (beast, Ohayo, LA Bird)
iggy - 2 (Davis, ShaqA)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 Barry vs Kidd:

Barry - 1 (ShaqA)
Kidd - 4 (hcl, beast, Ohayo, LA Bird)
neither - 2 (Doc, iggy)

Kidd 8, Barry 6

Jason Kidd is Inducted at #38.

Image

Nomination Vote 1:

Schayes - 2(Clyde, LA Bird)
Baylor - 3 (trex, Samurai, OSNB)
Pierce - 1 (AEnigma)
Howard - 2 (trelos, Ambrose)
Green - 2 (hcl, Doc)
Westbrook - 4 (Ohayo, iggy, rk, falco)
Walton - 1 (ShaqA)
beast - 1 (none)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 Westbrook vs Baylor:

Baylor - 1 (AEnigma)
Westbrook - 1 (ShaqA)
neither - 7 (beast, Clyde, LA Bird, trelos, Ambrose, hcl, Doc)

Westbrook 5, Baylor 4

Russell Westbrook is added to Nominee list.

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Hi Doc - I believe rk's nomination vote was for Baylor first, Westbrook second, so it should actually be Baylor 5, Westbrook 4, by my count.

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