Which of these is the biggest advantage for *Prime* LeBron over Luka??

[MiamiBulls]

1. Lebron's Motor & Physical Conditioning is the main separator.

Lebron Conditioning is next level, hearing Al Horford speak about Lebron on JJ Redick's Podcast gives clear insights to LBJ's edge in effectiveness. LBJ has the same or similar activity level in the 4th Quarter as he had in the 1st Quarter.

The extreme heliocentric nature of Bron Ball, Luka Ball, Harden Ball is in general a suboptimal playstyle. It diminishes the overall effectiveness of some of their Star teammates in exchange for maximizing their effectiveness/skillsets on the court.

Helio-Ball will likely result in having little to no energy left on Defense as the prolonged Regular Season progresses and as they peak in extreme Usage in the Playoffs.

Lebron made 'Bron Ball' work with his physical conditioning/motor & extraordinary athleticism, something Luka Doncic & James Harden do not possess.

[Heej]

Is this factoring in defensive IQ?

Personally I'm of the opinion that defense is mostly effort and watching film. If you can map the floor on offense it's not that hard to predict the Domino effects from when a guy gets back cut or blown by or caught with a mismatch down low and the help gets pulled in and a gap that needs to be plugged briefly appears.

This gets down to what you consider IQ as well. Is knowing all the opponents sets TRULY IQ or is that more an indicator of work ethic? I'd argue processing speed is the clearest indicator and I rate LeBron as clearly a step slower than Jokic reading the help (although height is a SIGNIFICANT factor here), and I think Luka looks more advanced with his reads at the same age. But that may also be because he played spread pnr in Europe for years while LeBron had to learn those reads in the midst of a massive stylistic overhaul/revolution from the post up dead ball era

Not going to pretend I'm qualified to break down these components, but I don't think it always maps 1:1, (See: Larry Bird)

Maybe it is work ethic but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=205&v=i61OaGo8fjk&feature=youtu.be
("was pretty much subbing his teammates in and out, calling out our whole plays" - bob meyers)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=231&v=LPLn1bjpZDg&feature=youtu.be
("he was pretty much coaching the team on certain actions and that's what he's done his whole career " - KD describing Lebron literally Bill Russelling him")

He's nowhere near my favorite player, but it's wild to me how many of his biggest fans still haven't figured out his effect on a team is alot more than just his Box-composites. It might also explain why his team's "without" gets worse the more they have to play without him (on/off -< wowy -< indirect)

I mean to me subbing players in and out definitely speaks to his attention to detail along with calling out plays, but to me I think that's something Luka Jokic Bird CP etc would all be fairly capable of doing. That doesn't matter anywhere near as much as reacting as quickly as possible when the help comes.

We talk about "functional athleticism" a lot which is where we get the opportunity to credit guys for the less heralded athletic traits like deceleration, coordination, dexterity, etc; and to me this is a case of "functional IQ" where it's incredible and all that LeBron knows all the plays when he's on defense, but bro is getting bottled up by swarms a tad bit easier than Luka and Jokic do and that's a big reason why they're marginally better half court playmakers imo.

And to be clear, I'm heavily exaggerating the difference between LeBron and those 2 in half court situations because I watch his games the most and have the most to nitpick about him. It's really like arguing who's the 9.9 on the IQ scale and who's the 9.8 or 9.85

[OhayoKD]

Personally I'm of the opinion that defense is mostly effort and watching film. If you can map the floor on offense it's not that hard to predict the Domino effects from when a guy gets back cut or blown by or caught with a mismatch down low and the help gets pulled in and a gap that needs to be plugged briefly appears.

This gets down to what you consider IQ as well. Is knowing all the opponents sets TRULY IQ or is that more an indicator of work ethic? I'd argue processing speed is the clearest indicator and I rate LeBron as clearly a step slower than Jokic reading the help (although height is a SIGNIFICANT factor here), and I think Luka looks more advanced with his reads at the same age. But that may also be because he played spread pnr in Europe for years while LeBron had to learn those reads in the midst of a massive stylistic overhaul/revolution from the post up dead ball era

Not going to pretend I'm qualified to break down these components, but I don't think it always maps 1:1, (See: Larry Bird)

Maybe it is work ethic but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=205&v=i61OaGo8fjk&feature=youtu.be
("was pretty much subbing his teammates in and out, calling out our whole plays" - bob meyers)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=231&v=LPLn1bjpZDg&feature=youtu.be
("he was pretty much coaching the team on certain actions and that's what he's done his whole career " - KD describing Lebron literally Bill Russelling him")

He's nowhere near my favorite player, but it's wild to me how many of his biggest fans still haven't figured out his effect on a team is alot more than just his Box-composites. It might also explain why his team's "without" gets worse the more they have to play without him (on/off -< wowy -< indirect)

I mean to me subbing players in and out definitely speaks to his attention to detail along with calling out plays, but to me I think that's something Luka Jokic Bird CP etc would all be fairly capable of doing. That doesn't matter anywhere near as much as reacting as quickly as possible when the help comes.

We talk about "functional athleticism" a lot which is where we get the opportunity to credit guys for the less heralded athletic traits like deceleration, coordination, dexterity, etc; and to me this is a case of "functional IQ" where it's incredible and all that LeBron knows all the plays when he's on defense, but bro is getting bottled up by swarms a tad bit easier than Luka and Jokic do and that's a big reason why they're marginally better half court playmakers imo.

And to be clear, I'm heavily exaggerating the difference between LeBron and those 2 in half court situations because I watch his games the most and have the most to nitpick about him. It's really like arguing who's the 9.9 on the IQ scale and who's the 9.8 or 9.85

Fair enough on the others. But Bird straight up wasn't court-mapping or really anticipating much beyond what was immediately in his line of sight defensively

[Heej]

Not going to pretend I'm qualified to break down these components, but I don't think it always maps 1:1, (See: Larry Bird)

Maybe it is work ethic but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=205&v=i61OaGo8fjk&feature=youtu.be
("was pretty much subbing his teammates in and out, calling out our whole plays" - bob meyers)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=231&v=LPLn1bjpZDg&feature=youtu.be
("he was pretty much coaching the team on certain actions and that's what he's done his whole career " - KD describing Lebron literally Bill Russelling him")

He's nowhere near my favorite player, but it's wild to me how many of his biggest fans still haven't figured out his effect on a team is alot more than just his Box-composites. It might also explain why his team's "without" gets worse the more they have to play without him (on/off -< wowy -< indirect)

I mean to me subbing players in and out definitely speaks to his attention to detail along with calling out plays, but to me I think that's something Luka Jokic Bird CP etc would all be fairly capable of doing. That doesn't matter anywhere near as much as reacting as quickly as possible when the help comes.

We talk about "functional athleticism" a lot which is where we get the opportunity to credit guys for the less heralded athletic traits like deceleration, coordination, dexterity, etc; and to me this is a case of "functional IQ" where it's incredible and all that LeBron knows all the plays when he's on defense, but bro is getting bottled up by swarms a tad bit easier than Luka and Jokic do and that's a big reason why they're marginally better half court playmakers imo.

And to be clear, I'm heavily exaggerating the difference between LeBron and those 2 in half court situations because I watch his games the most and have the most to nitpick about him. It's really like arguing who's the 9.9 on the IQ scale and who's the 9.8 or 9.85

Fair enough on the others. But Bird straight up wasn't court-mapping or really anticipating much beyond what was immediately in his line of sight defensively

To be fair, defenses in the 80s were a lot more rudimentary and lazy compared to modern ones

[MyUniBroDavis]

Personally I'm of the opinion that defense is mostly effort and watching film. If you can map the floor on offense it's not that hard to predict the Domino effects from when a guy gets back cut or blown by or caught with a mismatch down low and the help gets pulled in and a gap that needs to be plugged briefly appears.

This gets down to what you consider IQ as well. Is knowing all the opponents sets TRULY IQ or is that more an indicator of work ethic? I'd argue processing speed is the clearest indicator and I rate LeBron as clearly a step slower than Jokic reading the help (although height is a SIGNIFICANT factor here), and I think Luka looks more advanced with his reads at the same age. But that may also be because he played spread pnr in Europe for years while LeBron had to learn those reads in the midst of a massive stylistic overhaul/revolution from the post up dead ball era

Not going to pretend I'm qualified to break down these components, but I don't think it always maps 1:1, (See: Larry Bird)

Maybe it is work ethic but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=205&v=i61OaGo8fjk&feature=youtu.be
("was pretty much subbing his teammates in and out, calling out our whole plays" - bob meyers)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=231&v=LPLn1bjpZDg&feature=youtu.be
("he was pretty much coaching the team on certain actions and that's what he's done his whole career " - KD describing Lebron literally Bill Russelling him")

He's nowhere near my favorite player, but it's wild to me how many of his biggest fans still haven't figured out his effect on a team is alot more than just his Box-composites. It might also explain why his team's "without" gets worse the more they have to play without him (on/off -< wowy -< indirect)

I mean to me subbing players in and out definitely speaks to his attention to detail along with calling out plays, but to me I think that's something Luka Jokic Bird CP etc would all be fairly capable of doing. That doesn't matter anywhere near as much as reacting as quickly as possible when the help comes.

We talk about "functional athleticism" a lot which is where we get the opportunity to credit guys for the less heralded athletic traits like deceleration, coordination, dexterity, etc; and to me this is a case of "functional IQ" where it's incredible and all that LeBron knows all the plays when he's on defense, but bro is getting bottled up by swarms a tad bit easier than Luka and Jokic do and that's a big reason why they're marginally better half court playmakers imo.

And to be clear, I'm heavily exaggerating the difference between LeBron and those 2 in half court situations because I watch his games the most and have the most to nitpick about him. It's really like arguing who's the 9.9 on the IQ scale and who's the 9.8 or 9.85

I feel second stint bron did way better than he does now dealing with stuff like that, if anything though I think his ability to manage games back then was better with his athleticism, them playing into each other and stuff

[kcktiny]

Defense.

By his 6th season and the age of just 24 James was all-defensive 1st team, and was for the following 4 seasons.

This is Doncic's 6th season. Anyone think he is anywhere near an all-defensive 1st team defender? I sure don't, not even close. Nor do I see him becoming one anytime soon.

Also turnovers.

Doncic has already had 3 seasons of 4+ turnovers per game.

James did not commit 4+ turnovers per game until his 14th season in the league.

[Whiffyemperor]

Better shooter and decisions maker