RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #56 (Paul Arizin)

[MiamiBulls]

Wow, Thomas went as high as 43 in 2020. That's a bit surprising to me.

Not surprising in the least, this project comparatively to 2020 has essentially been treated as the Augmented Greatest Peaks Project w/a hyper emphasis on Peak.

Guys with lower peaks, but great/solid longevity & real-world stable health/durability are going to be noticably devalued (guys like IT, Stockton, Pierce, Pau) taking this approach.

[Doctor MJ]

Wow, Thomas went as high as 43 in 2020. That's a bit surprising to me.

Not surprising in the least, this project comparatively to 2020 has essentially been treated as the Augmented Greatest Peaks Project w/a hyper emphasis on Peak.

Guys with lower peaks, but great/solid longevity & real-world stable health/durability are going to be noticably devalued (guys like IT, Stockton, Pierce, Pau) taking this approach.

Weird to me that you see Isiah as a longevity guy.


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[Owly]

Wow, Thomas went as high as 43 in 2020. That's a bit surprising to me.

39 and 39 in the two prior projects, top 30 before that, though arguably the culture may have been different the further back you go.

[MiamiBulls]

Wow, Thomas went as high as 43 in 2020. That's a bit surprising to me.

Not surprising in the least, this project comparatively to 2020 has essentially been treated as the Augmented Greatest Peaks Project w/a hyper emphasis on Peak.

Guys with lower peaks, but great/solid longevity & real-world stable health/durability are going to be noticably devalued (guys like IT, Stockton, Pierce, Pau) taking this approach.

Weird to me that you see Isiah as a longevity guy.


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Comparatively to Humpty Dumpty players like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, Ginobili, Kawhi,(none of which have 12 seasons of all star level play); yes Isiah, who outside of his last year in '94 was a legitimate All Star caliber player his entire career, is a solid longevity guy.

[lessthanjake]

Vote for #56: Dave Cowens
Alternate Vote: George Gervin
Nomination: Adrian Dantley

I see support for Arizin, but honestly, I just find him to be too long ago. His career does overlap some with early Russell, but I just don’t credit the 1950s all that much, and even within the confines of that era his statistical profile doesn’t look overwhelmingly good. Basically, I put a big thumb on the scale against players who I think played in a genuinely prehistoric NBA, and so they better be way superior statistically or in terms of accomplishments, and I just don’t see that from Arizin.

Leaving Arizin aside then, Cowens feels like an obvious choice to me. There’s one non-Arizin player who was the best player on a championship team (and arguably he was the best for two). There’s one player left who won an MVP award. It’s not clear to me Cowens should’ve gotten an MVP (I think Kareem should’ve won), but he was top 4 in MVP voting four straight seasons, so he was considered up there for a significant time period either way. Cowens’s accomplishments in the game just feel superior to the other players. And that’s enough for me to vote for him.

It’s definitely conceivable to me that Thurmond was a more impactful player in a vacuum, given his defensive capabilities. And Gervin had more longevity as a genuinely great player. But ultimately, I don’t think they achieved as much as Cowens. Notably, though, I also think Cowens was a great player in some ways that don’t show up in stats—hustle plays, great outlet passes, etc. I do acknowledge that Cowens’s achievements came during a weak time period for the NBA—with the ABA around taking some of the talent—but that doesn’t really sway me much as against Thurmond and Gervin, who also played in that era and didn’t achieve nearly as much. As for Gasol, it is definitely conceivable to me that he’s a better player than Cowens. He played in a stronger era, was a great player, and won titles. But there was never a time when I considered Gasol anywhere near one of the best players in the NBA, and Cowens had a span as a consensus top 5 player. Even discounting Cowens for playing in a weaker era, I just can’t bring myself to put Gasol above him.

In terms of my alternate vote, I went with Gervin but don’t feel strongly about it. I just like his consistency for many years as a player who was one of the league’s best players. I didn’t think overly hard about this one, though, since it doesn’t seem like my alternate vote will matter. I could certainly be convinced against this one or change my mind about Gervin versus these other players.

[trex_8063]

Wouldn't mind seeing Nance and Marion start getting some mentions; both fine defenders with decent offensive games as finishers rather than playmakers. Don't have either as high as Bobby Jones though; he seemed more of a difference maker.

fwiw, I think both Marion and Nance have considerably more offensive ability than Jones. Not to mention they are not limited by minutes.
Jones played >29 mpg in the NBA precisely ONE season in his career (never played as many as 35 mpg even in the ABA). And this is before the era when load-management was a thing; it was primarily because Jones had asthma (is it conceivable that that in today's environment [where players have to cover SOOO much more ground defensively on an average possession] that Jones would be playing <24 mpg???).

As much as he was a "difference maker" while on the court, I'm wondering [doubtful] if it's enough to overcome the fact that some other players (including Marion and Nance) were "on the court" ~10 extra minutes night in, night out.
Not to mention BOTH had longer careers.

wrt his impressive on/off, I'm wondering if part of that is WHO he was replacing. Late 70s/80s it was one of Darryl Dawkins or Caldwell Jones (Caldwell an excellent defender, but an empty uniform on offense, Dawkins kinda so-so on both ends). By '83 he was primarily replacing Marc Iavaroni (probably the weakest starter in the line-up). These things aid his on/off.

[penbeast0]

Then he was replacing Charles Barkley after that. But I have Jones slightly better on offense. Marion had more range and quickness, Nance was the longest and best finisher of the 3, so each had their skills, but while Jones scored a bit less (20 pp 100 possessions v. 22 and 24 respectively), Jones had the best passing skills of the 3 (assist % 13 to 11 for Nance and 9 for Marion).

And his defense, which was his calling card, was certainly more celebrated than either.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Induction Vote #1: Paul Arizin

#1 on a title team, one of the best scorers/offensive players of the league’s first 20 years, statistically consistent, resilient in the offseason, decent longevity.

Nomination Vote #1: Isiah Thomas

Leader of a team that in a four year period went to four ECF, three Finals, and won back-to-back titles. Good defender, playmaker, leader.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote 1 - George Gervin
Vote 2 - Paul Arizin
Nomination 1 - Willis Reed

Even though Gervin's playoff success leaves something to be desired, he was still an impressive playoff performer, putting up the following from '75-'83 (65 games):

28.8 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 3 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 56% TS, 113 ORtg 

In '79, the spurs faced the defending champion bullets in the ECF, with a heartbreaking 2 pt game 7 loss. Gervin scored 42 pts in the game, including 24 in the 2nd half. The spurs and bullets ranked 1st and 2nd in SRS respectively that season.

In '82, the spurs made a mid season trade for talented scorer Mike Mitchell. He would only appear in 57 games for the spurs, and gervin still led the spurs to the 7th best SRS in the league. For context as owly mentioned, Ron brewer was pretty productive that season before being traded for Mitchell: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/1982.html. They would fall to the eventual NBA champion lakers (4th in SRS) in the WCF.

In '83, the spurs (6th in SRS) would again fall to the lakers (3rd in SRS) in the WCF. Gervin and Mitchell both had solid performances in the post season that year, but simply weren't enough for a deep lakers roster that featured magic, kareem, nixon, wilkes, mcadoo and cooper.

Had gervin and gilmore had more time together during each other's primes, i'm sure both would have helped each other to further playoff success.

[Doctor MJ]

Induction Vote 1:

Cowens - 2 (AEnigma, ltj)
Gasol - 2 (trex, iggy))
Arizin - 7 (beast, HBK, Samurai, Doc, Winta, trelos, OSNB)
Thurmond - 2 (Ohayo, hcl)
Gervin - 1 (Clyde)

No majority, going to Vote 2 between Cowens, Gasol, Arizin & Thurmond:

Cowens - 0 (none)
Gasol - 0(none)
Arizin - 1(Clyde)
Thurmond - 0 (none)

Arizin 8, Cowens 2, Gasol 2, Thurmond 2

Paul Arizin is Inducted at #56.



Nomination Vote 1:

Isiah - 4 (AEnigma, Doc, Winta, OSNB)
Parish - 1 (trex)
Bobby - 2 (beast, Samurai)
Reed - 2 (HBK, Clyde)
Carter - 1 (iggy)\
Mutombo - 1 (trelos)
Dantley - 1 (ltj)
none - 2 (Ohayo, hcl)

No majority. going to Vote 2 between Isiah, Bobby & Reed:

Isiah - 2 (trex, trelos
Bobby - 0 (none)
Reed - 0 (none)
none - 4 (Ohayo, hcl, iggy, ltj)

Isiah 6, Bobby 2, Reed 2

Isiah Thomas is added to Nominee list.