RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #60 (Alonzo Mourning)

[HeartBreakKid]

My vote is for Dikembe Mutumbo – I think his impact signals are quite alarming (in a good way). It’s quite interesting watching the Nuggets make their legendary run and seeing the anchor that Mutumbo was for that. Hes also interesting in the “defense doesn’t matter as much as offense” debates because he played alongside peak Iverson as an older man, and often was better than him in the post season during their big run. Anyway, versus the field, it seems like Mutumbo is not only a top ten defender of all time, but in serious consideration for top 5. Even if he was mediocre on offense, that’s more than enough to put him over some other guys.

Of course if people would like to argue how Thurmond and Mourning might be better defensively then I’d love to hear it. It’s pretty razor close between Mourning, Reed, and Mutumbo for me with Thurmond as a competitive 4th place. Don’t care much for Gasol over these 4. Could very easily switch my vote.

My alternate vote is for Willis Reed – It’s between him and Alonzo for some of the last elite two way, 1st option type of bigs. I’m not actually sure if he’s better than Alonzo, but I felt like I’ve underrated him in the past and I may be overcompensating for it.


The others

Nate Thurmond – I think his defense is more than enough to carry him over some real great two way and offensive players, but going up against C’s like Mourning and Reed prices him out.


Pau Gasol – Pau is incredibly well rounded and has heroics, but I think he gets a bit too much credit for being a “2nd guy”. I think there are a lot of 1st guys who are stereotyped of not being able to play well with other stars, and I don’t really buy it. I don’t care much for longevity either, and we can’t take into account international play, so Gasol doesn’t rank that high compared to the players available. I think Thurmond's defense might be enough of an outlier for me to take them over Pau for example. Isiah was able to anchor elite offenses due to his ability to facilitate and score at a high level. I think DPOY caliber defense is really hard to beat, and an offensive oriented center going up against an all time great PG is equally hard.



My nomination for Cliff Hagen - I feel this is a consistent pick with my lack of importance on longevity.



Cliff Hagen has some real playoff heroics and is perhaps the biggest catalyst to the Hawks only title. He has a couple of years where he is the playoff hero. He never quite plays at that level for the rest of his career, but he is still good scorer for his era, just not eyepopping like 58 and to a lesser extent 59.

I think most of the players after him typically more regular season guys (at least the guys who are going to be getting votes soon). I'm going to favor someone who had a 05 Manu like run here.

My alternate nomination is for Bill Walton

[OldSchoolNoBull]

My vote is for Dikembe Mutumbo – I think his impact signals are quite alarming (in a good way). It’s quite interesting watching the Nuggets make their legendary run and seeing the anchor that Mutumbo was for that. Hes also interesting in the “defense doesn’t matter as much as offense” debates because he played alongside peak Iverson as an older man, and often was better than him in the post season during their big run. Anyway, versus the field, it seems like Mutumbo is not only a top ten defender of all time, but in serious consideration for top 5. Even if he was mediocre on offense, that’s more than enough to put him over some other guys.

Of course if people would like to argue how Thurmond and Mourning might be better defensively then I’d love to hear it. It’s pretty razor close between Mourning, Reed, and Mutumbo for me with Thurmond as a competitive 4th place. Don’t care much for Gasol over these 4. Could very easily switch my vote.

It's not so much that I think Mourning is better defensively than Mutombo - I'd say Mourning was elite defensively and Mutombo was just even more elite - as it is that prime Zo looks considerably better offensively in addition to being an elite defender.

We don't have RAPM for Mutombo's Denver years, but we have it from his arrival in Atlanta in 96-97 onwards, and he posted a positive O-RAPM exactly one time - 0.07 in 99-00. I'm not entirely sure why, because Deke was basically an efficient scorer even if his volume wasn't very high. But it does strike a contrast to Mourning who, during his peak 96-00 run, was putting up not-huge-but-decent(1.5-3.0 range) O-RAPMs in addition to his impressive D-RAPMs(3.8-4.8 range). So Mourning has the higher O-RAPMs and higher scoring volume(Deke's career high PP100 is 21.1 in his rookie year; Zo had between 29 and 33 every year from 1992-93 to 2000-01) on even marginally higher efficiency, in addition to being very, very good defensively. I just see prime Mourning as a better two-way guy who you'd have more success building around as a #1 option.

That said, I'm pretty high on Mutombo too. Being arguably the most impactful player, having the highest playoff on/off, on a team that went to the Finals and took a game off the 01 Lakers, matters to me, in addition to his indisputable defensive numbers. Not sure I'd take him over Reed though(honestly, the only real reason I went with Mourning over Reed is longevity).

[OldSchoolNoBull]

For the second spot, Zo proponents in particular have made great arguments and I'm continuing to ponder them. Here there is a tendency toward playoff disappointment with Zo that I do keep in mind, and meanwhile, Reed held up very well.

Just pulling this quote from the previous thread so that I might say this WRT Zo and playoff disappointment:

I assume we're talking about the losses when he was in his prime and the #1 option in Miami, so 1996-2000.

So, first off, I have a hard time blaming him for losing to ATG 72-win/11.80 SRS and 69-win/10.70 SRS Bulls teams in 96 and 97.

Secondly, 98, 99, and 00 were all losses to a Knicks team that was A)VERY motivated to beat them due to the combination of Pat Riley and the PJ Brown brawl and B)Matched up exceptionally well with the Heat(Ewing and Camby for Mourning, Oakley for Brown, Houston and Mashburn, Childs and Ward to guard Hardaway, JVG who knew Riley better than most, etc).

Additionally, compare Zo's numbers in the 98/99/00 playoff runs:

1998: .173 WS/48, 4.6 BPM, +16.6 on/off
1999: .184 WS/48, 5.9 BPM, +1.0 on/off
2000: .217 WS/48, 5.5 BPM, -1.3 on/off

to his #2, Tim Hardaway's:

1998: .166 WS/48, 6.8 BPM, -15.0 on/off
1999: -.127 WS/48, -5.4 BPM, -29.7 on/off
2000: .005 WS/48, -1.9 BPM, -18.4 on/off

and his #3, Jamal Mashburn's;

1998: -.122/WS/48, -7.9 BPM, -14.9 on/off
1999: -.036 WS/48, -2.5 BPM, -6.2 on/off
2000: .105 WS/48, 0.6 BPM, +30.4 on/off

Despite some outliers(that on/off for Mashburn in 2000 is weird), Mourning looks much more consistently good than his partners.

Just some things to consider when considering those playoff losses.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote 1 - Willis Reed
Vote 2 - Nate Thurmond
Nomination 1 - Robert Parish

On their way to the championship in 1970, Wllis helped the Knicks knock off two of the most dominant centers of all time in Wilt and Kareem. Undersized for a center at 6’9”, his brute strength and good defensive instincts were still able to deter them. He also had a great outside shot for a big man, which was very effective against Wilt in his later years. He would again get the best of Wilt in '73 when the Knicks took down the Lakers in the finals.

I don’t have a problem with questioning his 2 finals MVPs relative to Clyde’s level of play in those series. However, I don’t doubt that Reed was a player whose impact went beyond the box score, and I’d say that’s what voters were recognizing when selecting him as finals MVP in both seasons. This was best exemplified in the famous moment when reed came through the tunnel in game 7 of the '70 finals:

Watch on YouTube

As the Lakers were warming up, they froze as they saw Willis coming onto the court (he had previously missed game 6 with a torn muscle in his thigh, and no one expected him to play). He hit his first 2 jumpers, and the rest was history. Dramatic narrative? Of course, but Clyde himself said they wouldn’t have had the confidence to go out there and perform like they did without their captain leading the way. When you have the talent to back it up as willis did, that makes a difference.

He was certainly deserving of winning regular season MVP in 1970, leading the Knicks to a 60-22 record and the #1 ranked SRS in the league. He put together season averages of 21.7 PPG, 13.9 RPG, 2 APG, 50.7 FG, 75.6% FT, 55.2% TS, +4.1 rTS.

From '69-'73, reed would anchor a Knicks defense that ranked in the top 3rd of the league for 4 seasons:

'69 - 4th
'70 - 1st
'71 - 2nd
'73 - 4th

The season after reed retired, the Knicks dropped to 11th (of 18) in DRtg. Yes, I'm aware there are other factors in the high DRtgs given the overall strength of the rosters, and this drop off the season he retired included other roster subtractions. Even still, his impact on that end of the floor was clear, as was the ability to lead a group of players to what’s often considered one of the best stretches of “team play” in NBA history.

[Doctor MJ]

Induction Vote 1: Willis Reed
Induction Vote 2: Alonzo Mourning

Continuing to side with Reed among this group despite good Zo arguments...but Zo does slide in to the 2nd spot.

I've always been a fan of Zo being a) elite on defense, b) quite good on offense, and c) an intense energy guy whether as star or role player.

Still feel like Reed held up the best of the bunch against the toughest competition though.

Nomination Vote 1: Cliff Hagan
Nomination Vote 2: Bobby Jones

Well I said I'd be careful about championing more super-oldtimers, but with Hagan getting support I can leave them hanging. The truth is that I do think Hagan stands out significantly compared to the other old timers left. The way he was dominant in the playoffs really impresses.

For the second vote, siding with Bobby among the major candidates. I do find the Parish arguments to be pretty compelling too, but Bobby really stands out to me.

[Doctor MJ]

Induction Vote 1:

Zo - 3 (AEnigma, Samurai, OSNB)
Thurmond - 3 (beast, Ohayo, LA Bird)
Mutombo - 2 (trelos, HBK)
Reed - 2 (Clyde, Doc)
Gasol - 1 (trex)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Zo & Thurmond:

Zo - 1 (trelos, Doc)
Thurmond - 1 (Clyde)
neither - 1 (HBK, tex)

Zo 5, Thurmond 4

Alonzo Mourning is Inducted at #60.



Nomination Vote 1:

Parish - (AEnigma, OSNB, Clyde)
Bobby - (Samurai, beast)
Ben - (trelos)
Gobert - (Ohayo)
Billups - (LA Bird)
Hagan - (HBK, Doc)

No majority, going to Vote 2 between Parish, Bobby & Hagan.

Parish - 1 (trelos)
Bobby - 0 (none)
Hagan - 0 (none)
none - 2 (Ohayo, LA Bird)

Parish 4, Bobby 2, Hagan 2.

Robert Parish is added to Nominee list.

[LA Bird]

.

You missed trex_8063's vote in post #12 which makes this a Mourning vs Thurmond runoff (I think)

[trex_8063]

Induction Vote 1:

Zo - 3 (AEnigma, Samurai, OSNB)
Thurmond - 3 (beast, Ohayo, LA Bird)
Mutombo - 2 (trelos, HBK)
Reed - 2 (Clyde, Doc)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Zo & Thurmond:

Zo - 2 (trelos, Doc)
Thurmond - 1 (Clyde)
neither - 1 (HBK)

Zo 5, Thurmond 4

Alonzo Mourning is Inducted at #60.

You completely missed my vote on page one. Voted Gasol, alternate was for Mutombo. Not sure if that changes anything.

Glad to see Parish got in even without me, as he was my nomination.

[Doctor MJ]

Induction Vote 1:

Zo - 3 (AEnigma, Samurai, OSNB)
Thurmond - 3 (beast, Ohayo, LA Bird)
Mutombo - 2 (trelos, HBK)
Reed - 2 (Clyde, Doc)

No majority. Going to Vote 2 between Zo & Thurmond:

Zo - 2 (trelos, Doc)
Thurmond - 1 (Clyde)
neither - 1 (HBK)

Zo 5, Thurmond 4

Alonzo Mourning is Inducted at #60.

You completely missed my vote on page one. Voted Gasol, alternate was for Mutombo. Not sure if that changes anything.

Glad to see Parish got in even without me, as he was my nomination.

My apologies trex!

[Doctor MJ]

.

You missed trex_8063's vote in post #12 which makes this a Mourning vs Thurmond runoff (I think)

Crap, I think you're right.

Edit: No, I think it's still Zo.

Because trex only voted for Mutombo in his 2nd vote, Mutombo had less votes than Zo & Nate in the initial round, which meant Mutombo still gets eliminated, and trelos' 2nd vote (for Zo) is still used.

Keeping the threads going as is, but do let me know if I'm in error (again).