LA Bird wrote:Giving the alternate to Bobby Jones because this looks to be a 3 way race and I don't have Hagan this high. I feel like his argument is too heavily based on 17 playoffs games since outside of 58/59, Hagan is not really much of a playoffs riser. And at that sample size, I would pick 96/97 Penny Hardaway and 78/81 Marques Johnson for example as better players. If we are strictly looking at an era relative case, Hagan's numbers were indeed very impressive but I don't think they are that far ahead of the best playoff runs from Frank Ramsey and Bobby Wanzer during that era, especially considering the caliber of 2/3 teams he went up against.
So, if we look at perimeter players from the era born between Wanzer & Ramsey, here are the guys with the most Top 5 TS Add season - noting that TS Add is exclusively an RS stat:
Arizin 5
Sharman 4
Hagan 3
Wanzer 2
And to be clear Ramsey is never in the Top 5.
I point this out to emphasize that within his own era, it's not like there were other perimeter guys having oodles of badass volume/efficiency seasons while Hagan was just a playoff flash in the pan. The reality is that it's really just Arizin & Sharman who have the edge there. And of course, Sharman really didn't show the ability to rise up and put up absolutely massive numbers in the playoffs like Hagan did.
This to say that it might not seem like Hagan has great prime duration, but relative to similar players from his own era, I don't really think this is something that allows anyone else to surge past him. I can see a case for Sharman on this front, but that's really it, and if we're simply asking who was better at basketball between Hagan & Sharman, I just think Hagan stands out quite a bit more.
When we go into other eras of course it gets trickier. Great longevity gets easier to come by, and it's understandable to favor more modern guys based on a sense of them playing in a tougher era.
Now you singled out Penny & Marques on the basis just of their short primes so I'll speak to them.
Penny is a guy I think very, very highly of and I welcome the conversation involving him. I probably would be inclined to take him over Hagan just best vs best. But while it might seem like a vote for Hagan is a vote not caring about longevity, as I've said, Hagan's longevity is considerably stronger than I first realized. The Hawks decided to focus their core elsewhere and that killed of Hagan's accolades, but Hagan was still largely able to do his thing for a while.
Here's a funny thing to consider, that isn't purely a pro-Hagan argument, but I think does give insight into the conversation:
Penny's last year as an all-star was at age 26, because of injuries.
Hagan's first year as an all-star was at age 26, because of the military.
So, Hagan's late starter absolutely should hurt him in this project...but the man had better longevity than Penny, with more all-star appearances, despite the issues that were in no way caused by himself.
What about Marques? Well, what do you do with a guy who self-destructs his way out of his best situation and the team doesn't really miss a beat without him? I think Marques was talented as all get out, but the issue with him isn't just that his prime was short, but that he literally became a problem before the age of 25. Fair to point out that he still made a couple more all-star seasons in his career after that, but it's hard for me to elevate a guy like ahead of guys who contenders could actually expect to build around.
Okay, just because I calculated this stat for everyone when I did this, here are the list of perimeter players with the most Top 5 TS Add seasons:
Reggie 12
Durant 10
Oscar 10
Curry 9
Harden 9
Dantley 8
West 8
LeBron 7
Jordan 6
Arizin 5
Stockton 5
Allen 4
Gervin 4
Sharman 4
Arnie Johnson 3
Cornbread 3
Mullin 3
Hagan 3
Nash 3
So, highest guys on that list not already voted in:
Dantley
Sharman
Arnie Johnson
Cornbread
Mullin
Hagan
