Will you take Jokic or LeBron for one playoff series

[LesGrossman]

What does LeBron contribute that Jokic doesnt? And turn it around, what does Jokic contribute that James never had?

LeBron in his youth was a scary defender. He stopped that a few years ago. Then again, young LeBron had nothing but run through people and finish at the rim, where Jokic has the vastly superior basketball skills. Both in low post moves and his crazy shot making from any distance.

Playmaking wise i have Jokic clearly higher than LeBron. He sees things very few people in the league ever saw. He geniunely creates easy finishes for his team, which isnt a very impressive shooting team. Rebound wise, Jokic outplays James.

Overall i'd prefer Joker. He hasnt shown any weakness so far other than his defense, which in itself is also not bad due to lack of effort but only limited by his phyical gifts - or lack thereof.

How is that a win for Jokic? You're saying his defense isn't good because he isn't physically gifted but he tries, so that's okay?

No, thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that comparing prime LeBron (probably around 2016) to Jokic, whose prime we may not even have seen, i see Jokic being better at almost everything. The observation that he is at least trying on defense does not really matter for the discussion of who is better overall, i agree with you. Its just as irrelevant as people who bring LeBron's age up as an excuse for lack of defensive effort today - in the end, it doesnt matter.

I'm not disrespecting LeBron with this assessment btw.. THere werent many players i saw as better than him during his prime; maybe KD, maybe Kawhi. But it has to be possible to say there are people i personally hold higher in overall rank without being instantly personally attacked. I'd rather happily discuss the actual topic.

Imagine placing Jokic into a team like the Miami heatles, surrounded by top 10 talent in the league in terms of finishing ability from outside or at the rim, combined with his playmaking abilities. Yes i believe they'd have had more success than we saw with LeBron.

[fanofthegreats]

What does LeBron contribute that Jokic doesnt? And turn it around, what does Jokic contribute that James never had?

LeBron in his youth was a scary defender. He stopped that a few years ago. Then again, young LeBron had nothing but run through people and finish at the rim, where Jokic has the vastly superior basketball skills. Both in low post moves and his crazy shot making from any distance.

Playmaking wise i have Jokic clearly higher than LeBron. He sees things very few people in the league ever saw. He geniunely creates easy finishes for his team, which isnt a very impressive shooting team. Rebound wise, Jokic outplays James.

Overall i'd prefer Joker. He hasnt shown any weakness so far other than his defense, which in itself is also not bad due to lack of effort but only limited by his phyical gifts - or lack thereof.

How is that a win for Jokic? You're saying his defense isn't good because he isn't physically gifted but he tries, so that's okay?

No, thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that comparing prime LeBron (probably around 2016) to Jokic, whose prime we may not even have seen, i see Jokic being better at almost everything. The observation that he is at least trying on defense does not really matter for the discussion of who is better overall, i agree with you. Its just as irrelevant as people who bring LeBron's age up as an excuse for lack of defensive effort today - in the end, it doesnt matter.

I'm not disrespecting LeBron with this assessment btw.. THere werent many players i saw as better than him during his prime; maybe KD, maybe Kawhi. But it has to be possible to say there are people i personally hold higher in overall rank without being instantly personally attacked. I'd rather happily discuss the actual topic.

Imagine placing Jokic into a team like the Miami heatles, surrounded by top 10 talent in the league in terms of finishing ability from outside or at the rim, combined with his playmaking abilities. Yes i believe they'd have had more success than we saw with LeBron.

Kawhi and Durant have no case over Prime LeBron. And Jokic isn’t doing anything with the corpse of D wade and no depth.

[Jaqua92]

What does LeBron contribute that Jokic doesnt? And turn it around, what does Jokic contribute that James never had?

LeBron in his youth was a scary defender. He stopped that a few years ago. Then again, young LeBron had nothing but run through people and finish at the rim, where Jokic has the vastly superior basketball skills. Both in low post moves and his crazy shot making from any distance.

Playmaking wise i have Jokic clearly higher than LeBron. He sees things very few people in the league ever saw. He geniunely creates easy finishes for his team, which isnt a very impressive shooting team. Rebound wise, Jokic outplays James.

Overall i'd prefer Joker. He hasnt shown any weakness so far other than his defense, which in itself is also not bad due to lack of effort but only limited by his phyical gifts - or lack thereof.

How is that a win for Jokic? You're saying his defense isn't good because he isn't physically gifted but he tries, so that's okay?

No, thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that comparing prime LeBron (probably around 2016) to Jokic, whose prime we may not even have seen, i see Jokic being better at almost everything. The observation that he is at least trying on defense does not really matter for the discussion of who is better overall, i agree with you. Its just as irrelevant as people who bring LeBron's age up as an excuse for lack of defensive effort today - in the end, it doesnt matter.

I'm not disrespecting LeBron with this assessment btw.. THere werent many players i saw as better than him during his prime; maybe KD, maybe Kawhi. But it has to be possible to say there are people i personally hold higher in overall rank without being instantly personally attacked. I'd rather happily discuss the actual topic.

Imagine placing Jokic into a team like the Miami heatles, surrounded by top 10 talent in the league in terms of finishing ability from outside or at the rim, combined with his playmaking abilities. Yes i believe they'd have had more success than we saw with LeBron.

Jokic is absolutely better than 2016 LeBron. LeBron in 2016 is overrated by his own standards. Lebrons prime was so long (and ended a while ago) that people are somehow forgetting his peak.

I think mentally, basketball IQ, LeBron in 2016 is comparible to Jokic, but Jokic is just a better offensive player than LeBron was at that point in his career.

Jokic is having a top 5 all time peak, so it's not unreasonable for people to have him over *most* of Lebron's runs, which is what you're saying.

The only LeBron i'd take over current Jokic is the last 3 Miami stints and his 2009 run.

The answer to the OP is LeBron though, assuming it's his peak

[Jaqua92]

How is that a win for Jokic? You're saying his defense isn't good because he isn't physically gifted but he tries, so that's okay?

No, thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that comparing prime LeBron (probably around 2016) to Jokic, whose prime we may not even have seen, i see Jokic being better at almost everything. The observation that he is at least trying on defense does not really matter for the discussion of who is better overall, i agree with you. Its just as irrelevant as people who bring LeBron's age up as an excuse for lack of defensive effort today - in the end, it doesnt matter.

I'm not disrespecting LeBron with this assessment btw.. THere werent many players i saw as better than him during his prime; maybe KD, maybe Kawhi. But it has to be possible to say there are people i personally hold higher in overall rank without being instantly personally attacked. I'd rather happily discuss the actual topic.

Imagine placing Jokic into a team like the Miami heatles, surrounded by top 10 talent in the league in terms of finishing ability from outside or at the rim, combined with his playmaking abilities. Yes i believe they'd have had more success than we saw with LeBron.

Kawhi and Durant have no case over Prime LeBron. And Jokic isn’t doing anything with the corpse of D wade and no depth.

Jokic isn't as good as Miami LeBron, but he 100% wins championships with that Heat squad XD

[LesGrossman]

How is that a win for Jokic? You're saying his defense isn't good because he isn't physically gifted but he tries, so that's okay?

No, thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that comparing prime LeBron (probably around 2016) to Jokic, whose prime we may not even have seen, i see Jokic being better at almost everything. The observation that he is at least trying on defense does not really matter for the discussion of who is better overall, i agree with you. Its just as irrelevant as people who bring LeBron's age up as an excuse for lack of defensive effort today - in the end, it doesnt matter.

I'm not disrespecting LeBron with this assessment btw.. THere werent many players i saw as better than him during his prime; maybe KD, maybe Kawhi. But it has to be possible to say there are people i personally hold higher in overall rank without being instantly personally attacked. I'd rather happily discuss the actual topic.

Imagine placing Jokic into a team like the Miami heatles, surrounded by top 10 talent in the league in terms of finishing ability from outside or at the rim, combined with his playmaking abilities. Yes i believe they'd have had more success than we saw with LeBron.

Kawhi and Durant have no case over Prime LeBron. And Jokic isn’t doing anything with the corpse of D wade and no depth.

I'm not talking all time ranking. I am talking about the original question - for one playoff series, assuming everyone stays healthy, i disagree. Prime Kawhi literally scared prime LeBron. And KD was a cheat code on legs. I dont know how we can measure them against each other but i feel like these two, as well as Jokic, were less dependent on a premium squad to succeed. Sure KD needed GSW to win it all, but he has shown impressive runs with mediocre guys.

Hell, why dont we throw prime Dirk into this? Prime Dirk went head to head against prime LeBron, who also had his super team best buddies around him, while Dirk had a bunch of leftovers and some guys who used to be good but were way past their prime, and we all remember the result...

[fanofthegreats]

No, thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that comparing prime LeBron (probably around 2016) to Jokic, whose prime we may not even have seen, i see Jokic being better at almost everything. The observation that he is at least trying on defense does not really matter for the discussion of who is better overall, i agree with you. Its just as irrelevant as people who bring LeBron's age up as an excuse for lack of defensive effort today - in the end, it doesnt matter.

I'm not disrespecting LeBron with this assessment btw.. THere werent many players i saw as better than him during his prime; maybe KD, maybe Kawhi. But it has to be possible to say there are people i personally hold higher in overall rank without being instantly personally attacked. I'd rather happily discuss the actual topic.

Imagine placing Jokic into a team like the Miami heatles, surrounded by top 10 talent in the league in terms of finishing ability from outside or at the rim, combined with his playmaking abilities. Yes i believe they'd have had more success than we saw with LeBron.

Kawhi and Durant have no case over Prime LeBron. And Jokic isn’t doing anything with the corpse of D wade and no depth.

I'm not talking all time ranking. I am talking about the original question - for one playoff series, assuming everyone stays healthy, i disagree. Prime Kawhi literally scared prime LeBron. And KD was a cheat code on legs. I dont know how we can measure them against each other but i feel like these two, as well as Jokic, were less dependent on a premium squad to succeed. Sure KD needed GSW to win it all, but he has shown impressive runs with mediocre guys.

Hell, why dont we throw prime Dirk into this? Prime Dirk went head to head against prime LeBron, who also had his super team best buddies around him, while Dirk had a bunch of leftovers and some guys who used to be good but were way past their prime, and we all remember the result...

Your point doesn’t stand. Prime LeBron was a tier above either guy by virtually all metrics. Your argument as to why is totally unsubstantiated.

[fanofthegreats]

How is that a win for Jokic? You're saying his defense isn't good because he isn't physically gifted but he tries, so that's okay?

No, thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that comparing prime LeBron (probably around 2016) to Jokic, whose prime we may not even have seen, i see Jokic being better at almost everything. The observation that he is at least trying on defense does not really matter for the discussion of who is better overall, i agree with you. Its just as irrelevant as people who bring LeBron's age up as an excuse for lack of defensive effort today - in the end, it doesnt matter.

I'm not disrespecting LeBron with this assessment btw.. THere werent many players i saw as better than him during his prime; maybe KD, maybe Kawhi. But it has to be possible to say there are people i personally hold higher in overall rank without being instantly personally attacked. I'd rather happily discuss the actual topic.

Imagine placing Jokic into a team like the Miami heatles, surrounded by top 10 talent in the league in terms of finishing ability from outside or at the rim, combined with his playmaking abilities. Yes i believe they'd have had more success than we saw with LeBron.

Jokic is absolutely better than 2016 LeBron. LeBron in 2016 is overrated by his own standards. Lebrons prime was so long (and ended a while ago) that people are somehow forgetting his peak.

I think mentally, basketball IQ, LeBron in 2016 is comparible to Jokic, but Jokic is just a better offensive player than LeBron was at that point in his career.

Jokic is having a top 5 all time peak, so it's not unreasonable for people to have him over *most* of Lebron's runs, which is what you're saying.

The only LeBron i'd take over current Jokic is the last 3 Miami stints and his 2009 run.

The answer to the OP is LeBron though, assuming it's his peak

Offense is arguable but LeBron is tiers above as an impact defender. I’m not comfortable stating Jokic is better than 2016 LeBron after that finals performance considering the quality of competition.

[OhayoKD]

What does LeBron contribute that Jokic doesnt? And turn it around, what does Jokic contribute that James never had?

LeBron in his youth was a scary defender. He stopped that a few years ago. Then again, young LeBron had nothing but run through people and finish at the rim, where Jokic has the vastly superior basketball skills. Both in low post moves and his crazy shot making from any distance.

Playmaking wise i have Jokic clearly higher than LeBron. He sees things very few people in the league ever saw. He geniunely creates easy finishes for his team, which isnt a very impressive shooting team. Rebound wise, Jokic outplays James.

Overall i'd prefer Joker. He hasnt shown any weakness so far other than his defense, which in itself is also not bad due to lack of effort but only limited by his phyical gifts - or lack thereof.

How is that a win for Jokic? You're saying his defense isn't good because he isn't physically gifted but he tries, so that's okay?

No, thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that comparing prime LeBron (probably around 2016) to Jokic, whose prime we may not even have seen, i see Jokic being better at almost everything. The observation that he is at least trying on defense does not really matter for the discussion of who is better overall, i agree with you. Its just as irrelevant as people who bring LeBron's age up as an excuse for lack of defensive effort today - in the end, it doesnt matter.

Jokic is worse at nearly everything defensively and is a vastly worse ball-handler. He also gets cooked in data tied to winning as opposed to arbitrary weightings of select basketball actions.

Not sure why Lebron needs a defensive excuse when he was making his defenses much better in the regular season too.

Jokic is absolutely better than 2016 LeBron. LeBron in 2016 is overrated by his own standards. Lebrons prime was so long (and ended a while ago) that people are somehow forgetting his peak.

The comparison is not Lebron vs Lebron it's Lebron vs Jokic. It's not that anyone forgot his peak, it's that you can't actually construct a serious argument against "not peak" years. 2015 Lebron showed similar rs lift and then was sweeping 60-win teams without his two co-stars in the playoffs. In similar circumstance, Jokic was struggling with marginally >.500 portland and getting roflstomped by a worse version of the Warriors.

You may not think things like ball-handling, paint-protection, help d, or coordinating teammates, or turnover economy(and yes, Lebron torches Jokic there) matter, but it has consistently helped Lebron cook the field when it comes to making teams win. Lebron beat a better team than anyone Jokic has faced with a cast that by the most optimistic empirical appraisal(lineup-data as opposed to wowy) was average offensively and bad defensively without him and with his two co-stars after seeing his teams play all-time great in the conference. And that was after posting discernible rs impact for 3-years that rivals anyone whose played in the last 50-years historically.

[OhayoKD]

How is that a win for Jokic? You're saying his defense isn't good because he isn't physically gifted but he tries, so that's okay?

No, thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that comparing prime LeBron (probably around 2016) to Jokic, whose prime we may not even have seen, i see Jokic being better at almost everything. The observation that he is at least trying on defense does not really matter for the discussion of who is better overall, i agree with you. Its just as irrelevant as people who bring LeBron's age up as an excuse for lack of defensive effort today - in the end, it doesnt matter.

I'm not disrespecting LeBron with this assessment btw.. THere werent many players i saw as better than him during his prime; maybe KD, maybe Kawhi. But it has to be possible to say there are people i personally hold higher in overall rank without being instantly personally attacked. I'd rather happily discuss the actual topic.

Imagine placing Jokic into a team like the Miami heatles, surrounded by top 10 talent in the league in terms of finishing ability from outside or at the rim, combined with his playmaking abilities. Yes i believe they'd have had more success than we saw with LeBron.

Kawhi and Durant have no case over Prime LeBron. And Jokic isn’t doing anything with the corpse of D wade and no depth.

People forget but Miami were massively hampered by injury in the 2012 playoffs as well. The 2012 finals were the only series post 2011 where we got to see a healthy big three and they cooked an okc side that

A. was historically strong by playoff-srs
B. had been taking eventual champions to 6 as of 2010 and was consistently winning 50
C. Went and posted a +9 SRS the next year without the aid of expansion, and without James Harden

Even with Wade's knee injury they went 8-1 with their big 3 starting and they posted one of the highest playoff ratings ever(opponent-adjusted) even with all the injuries(+13 psrs. Extremely underrated team.

Either way, Jokic is not winning in 2012 or 2013 if the same health issues persist. Any game where the bbr slashline looks similar is a game Lebron played much better than Jokic can hope to.

[therealbig3]

Jokic is a monster, and I think you can make a case he has the GOAT peak…not sure I’d agree, but a case can be made. LeBron for me though, regarding this question.

lol at the Durant and Kawhi mentions. Kawhi won a FMVP purely because he defended a prime LeBron and “held” him to 28/8/4 on 68% TS. LeBron outplayed Durant in every single matchup they’ve had, even when Durant had an overwhelming talent advantage on his teams.

These guys get reputation boosts simply by playing against LeBron lol, that’s how great LeBron is.

[Jaqua92]

How is that a win for Jokic? You're saying his defense isn't good because he isn't physically gifted but he tries, so that's okay?

No, thats not what i'm saying. I'm saying that comparing prime LeBron (probably around 2016) to Jokic, whose prime we may not even have seen, i see Jokic being better at almost everything. The observation that he is at least trying on defense does not really matter for the discussion of who is better overall, i agree with you. Its just as irrelevant as people who bring LeBron's age up as an excuse for lack of defensive effort today - in the end, it doesnt matter.

Jokic is worse at nearly everything defensively and is a vastly worse ball-handler. He also gets cooked in data tied to winning as opposed to arbitrary weightings of select basketball actions.

Not sure why Lebron needs a defensive excuse when he was making his defenses much better in the regular season too.

Jokic is absolutely better than 2016 LeBron. LeBron in 2016 is overrated by his own standards. Lebrons prime was so long (and ended a while ago) that people are somehow forgetting his peak.

The comparison is not Lebron vs Lebron it's Lebron vs Jokic. It's not that anyone forgot his peak, it's that you can't actually construct a serious argument against "not peak" years. 2015 Lebron showed similar rs lift and then was sweeping 60-win teams without his two co-stars in the playoffs. In similar circumstance, Jokic was struggling with marginally >.500 portland and getting roflstomped by a worse version of the Warriors.

You may not think things like ball-handling, paint-protection, help d, or coordinating teammates, or turnover economy(and yes, Lebron torches Jokic there) matter, but it has consistently helped Lebron cook the field when it comes to making teams win. Lebron beat a better team than anyone Jokic has faced with a cast that by the most optimistic empirical appraisal(lineup-data as opposed to wowy) was average offensively and bad defensively without him and with his two co-stars after seeing his teams play all-time great in the conference. And that was after posting discernible rs impact for 3-years that rivals anyone whose played in the last 50-years historically.

I never said anything about what I think matters on the defense end. Jokic struggling to get through the Blazers was years ago, and LeBron wasn't going to carry Jokic's squad past the champion Warriors in 2022 either. Jokic is a better player than he was then, and this discussion is focusing on current Jokic, and I'd still take this version of Jokic over any version of LeBron from 2015-onwards, regardless of what the data you chose reference, or I chose to reference. You don't have to agree, and can go ahead and claim I'm wrong, that's fine. I'm not interested in one of those contextualized statistical and tangential debates I normally see from you, so agree to disagree.

[CoP]

I think it wasn't clear that I asked for current Jokic vs current LeBron.

I understand Jokic is very very good but I still think that as long as LeBron is still in the NBA, there is a certain gear that LeBron can turn on. Kinda similar to no matter how washed Kobe was his final season, he still put up 60 in his last game.

Pretty easily I'd take current Jokic over current LeBron.

[LesGrossman]

Kawhi and Durant have no case over Prime LeBron. And Jokic isn’t doing anything with the corpse of D wade and no depth.

I'm not talking all time ranking. I am talking about the original question - for one playoff series, assuming everyone stays healthy, i disagree. Prime Kawhi literally scared prime LeBron. And KD was a cheat code on legs. I dont know how we can measure them against each other but i feel like these two, as well as Jokic, were less dependent on a premium squad to succeed. Sure KD needed GSW to win it all, but he has shown impressive runs with mediocre guys.

Hell, why dont we throw prime Dirk into this? Prime Dirk went head to head against prime LeBron, who also had his super team best buddies around him, while Dirk had a bunch of leftovers and some guys who used to be good but were way past their prime, and we all remember the result...

Your point doesn’t stand. Prime LeBron was a tier above either guy by virtually all metrics. Your argument as to why is totally unsubstantiated.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I dont agree but thats probably the nature of such arguments. First you merely claim he is "a tier above either guy in virtually all metrics" without providing actual data. Secondly, metrics are not the only source we can use. Dirk single handedly outplayed a team of superstars surrounding LeBron (and the refs) in a very convincing way. That is one metric you'll struggle to disregard. I'd say Dirks performance in this series was easily a tier above LeBrons, not the other way around. Remember the actual title and subject of this topic?

[Asianiac_24]

I don’t see current LeBron having any argument at all.

[fanofthegreats]

I'm not talking all time ranking. I am talking about the original question - for one playoff series, assuming everyone stays healthy, i disagree. Prime Kawhi literally scared prime LeBron. And KD was a cheat code on legs. I dont know how we can measure them against each other but i feel like these two, as well as Jokic, were less dependent on a premium squad to succeed. Sure KD needed GSW to win it all, but he has shown impressive runs with mediocre guys.

Hell, why dont we throw prime Dirk into this? Prime Dirk went head to head against prime LeBron, who also had his super team best buddies around him, while Dirk had a bunch of leftovers and some guys who used to be good but were way past their prime, and we all remember the result...

Your point doesn’t stand. Prime LeBron was a tier above either guy by virtually all metrics. Your argument as to why is totally unsubstantiated.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I dont agree but thats probably the nature of such arguments. First you merely claim he is "a tier above either guy in virtually all metrics" without providing actual data. Secondly, metrics are not the only source we can use. Dirk single handedly outplayed a team of superstars surrounding LeBron (and the refs) in a very convincing way. That is one metric you'll struggle to disregard. I'd say Dirks performance in this series was easily a tier above LeBrons, not the other way around. Remember the actual title and subject of this topic?

Ah okay? And Dirk similarly underperformed numerous times in the playoffs himself. Would you argue prime Baron Davis over prime Dirk? No you wouldn’t. It’s about body of work.

[capfan33]

Your point doesn’t stand. Prime LeBron was a tier above either guy by virtually all metrics. Your argument as to why is totally unsubstantiated.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I dont agree but thats probably the nature of such arguments. First you merely claim he is "a tier above either guy in virtually all metrics" without providing actual data. Secondly, metrics are not the only source we can use. Dirk single handedly outplayed a team of superstars surrounding LeBron (and the refs) in a very convincing way. That is one metric you'll struggle to disregard. I'd say Dirks performance in this series was easily a tier above LeBrons, not the other way around. Remember the actual title and subject of this topic?

Ah okay? And Dirk similarly underperformed numerous times in the playoffs himself. Would you argue prime Baron Davis over prime Dirk? No you wouldn’t. It’s about body of work.

Even as a big Dirk homer he had a bunch of subpar series during his prime. Moreover, he didn't outplay a "team of superstars" as Wade had a better series. Finally, the Heat were 3 superstars with very mediocre depth, they weren't some juggernaut like some try to make them.