Peak manu vs peak draymond

[eminence]

A 10-10 tie is very funny, I can’t wait to make a draymond or harden thread

Unironically, how many Brick Ross seasons were better than 16 Draymond?

Zero, zilch, zippo.

[MyUniBroDavis]

A 10-10 tie is very funny, I can’t wait to make a draymond or harden thread

Unironically, how many Brick Ross seasons were better than 16 Draymond?

I can’t tell if ur talking about Westbrook because of the name or harden because of the beard

[SportsGuru08]

Ginobili. Mr. Triple Single's reputation is grossly inflated by playing on a dynasty.

[theonlyclutch]

Ginobili. Mr. Triple Single's reputation is grossly inflated by playing on a dynasty.

Meanwhile, a guard who never averaged more than 20ppg or 5apg in a season was voted within top 40 lists in this board.. didn't get his rep inflated by playing on the most consistently winning NBA teams in the 21st century, got it.

[SportsGuru08]

Ginobili. Mr. Triple Single's reputation is grossly inflated by playing on a dynasty.

Meanwhile, a guard who never averaged more than 20ppg or 5apg in a season was voted within top 40 lists in this board.. didn't get his rep inflated by playing on the most consistently winning NBA teams in the 21st century, got it.

Difference is Ginobili could actually be counted on to make a shot. The only thing Draymond can be counted on consistently is putting up triple singles. Ginobili could have also been a starter on a bunch of other teams.

[GSP]

Ginobili. Mr. Triple Single's reputation is grossly inflated by playing on a dynasty.

Meanwhile, a guard who never averaged more than 20ppg or 5apg in a season was voted within top 40 lists in this board.. didn't get his rep inflated by playing on the most consistently winning NBA teams in the 21st century, got it.

Difference is Ginobili could actually be counted on to make a shot. The only thing Draymond can be counted on consistently is putting up triple singles. Ginobili could have also been a starter on a bunch of other teams.

This is a peak convo.........16 Draymond was a legit shooter who carried over to playoffs to. And he did it even when Steph was out. Over time his shooting that season has looked like an outlier compared to rest of his career but he could absolutely be counted on to shoot and score. at least 16 Draymond

[theonlyclutch]

Ginobili. Mr. Triple Single's reputation is grossly inflated by playing on a dynasty.

Meanwhile, a guard who never averaged more than 20ppg or 5apg in a season was voted within top 40 lists in this board.. didn't get his rep inflated by playing on the most consistently winning NBA teams in the 21st century, got it.

Difference is Ginobili could actually be counted on to make a shot. The only thing Draymond can be counted on consistently is putting up triple singles. Ginobili could have also been a starter on a bunch of other teams.

Draymond in the 2016 playoffs was literally 4-2 in games Steph missed, leading GSW past two playoff teams.

What did Manu do in the playoffs without Duncan?

[SportsGuru08]

Meanwhile, a guard who never averaged more than 20ppg or 5apg in a season was voted within top 40 lists in this board.. didn't get his rep inflated by playing on the most consistently winning NBA teams in the 21st century, got it.

Difference is Ginobili could actually be counted on to make a shot. The only thing Draymond can be counted on consistently is putting up triple singles. Ginobili could have also been a starter on a bunch of other teams.

Draymond in the 2016 playoffs was literally 4-2 in games Steph missed, leading GSW past two playoff teams.

What did Manu do in the playoffs without Duncan?

What happened in 2020 when Steph & Klay were injured and Durant had left and it was only Draymond available?

Oh right, worst record in the West. Stop acting like Draymond is Larry Bird, especially when they won their most recent title in spite of him.

[OhayoKD]

Difference is Ginobili could actually be counted on to make a shot. The only thing Draymond can be counted on consistently is putting up triple singles. Ginobili could have also been a starter on a bunch of other teams.

Draymond in the 2016 playoffs was literally 4-2 in games Steph missed, leading GSW past two playoff teams.

What did Manu do in the playoffs without Duncan?

What happened in 2020 when Steph & Klay were injured and Durant had left and it was only Draymond available?

Oh right, worst record in the West. Stop acting like Draymond is Larry Bird, especially when they won their most recent title in spite of him.

Draymond was put in a minutes restriction and still posted better lineup data than Steph?

It's really funny seeing people try and dismiss Draymond's consistently strong impact-on-winning profile...by cherrypicking years from a stretch...where he still looks very impactful to winning:

Spoiler:

not really much wowy to use for draymond's peak peak but for his career, per statmuse, the warriors play like a .500 team without him and 55-team with. Not sure what the sample there is though on a per-season basis.

For what its worth, we do have a substantial "back-end of prime" sample for 2021 where the warriors go from a game under .500 without to a 45-win pace with and 2022 where the Warriors go from 17-15 without to a 60-win pace with.

Combined that gets the Warriors to .500 without Draymond Green(23-22) and 51-win with.

If we toss in the year he was minutes restricted(and the warriors were trying to lose) we get a 34 win pace without and a 45-win pace with Draymond scoring half as many points on worse effeciency than he did in 2016 when he was busting rapm and lineup-rating and on/off.

Roughly 11 win lift over a artifically depressed sample(2020 was thrown in) provides support for --peak-- Draymond being a pretty good floor-raiser beyond all that lineup stuff we have access to. Though enigma's probably right thurmond is more proven there

Three years of solid floor-raising(to a degree manu has never showed with this sort of approach) well post-peak with a sample significantly distorted by a year Draymond was on a minutes restriction and the warriors objective was to secure a top lottery pick. And obviously elevates in the postseason.

Defense is a thing.

[Gus Fring]

Peak Manu. He was definitely more portable than Draymond. I don't think people understand that Manu was also a great defensive player. He was defensive playmaker, getting timely blocks, steals, charges, and rebounds. Obviously not the same type of moment to moment impact as Dray, but certainly much better and more impactful than your average star guard.

[CodeBreaker]

The one who upset Team USA

[TheGOATRises007]

2016 Draymond is one of the most underrated players of all-time. He was incredible that season. Him and Steph during the RS specifically might have been the best duo ever. Pretty sure their impact numbers were nuts + and Steph had arguably the best RS of all-time.

His game 7 performance in the finals might be the best game 7 finals performance of all-time as well. It always gets ignored for obvious reasons.

[McBubbles]

2016 Draymond is one of the most underrated players of all-time. He was incredible that season. Him and Steph during the RS specifically might have been the best duo ever. Pretty sure their impact numbers were nuts + and Steph had arguably the best RS of all-time.

His game 7 performance in the finals might be the best game 7 finals performance of all-time as well. It always gets ignored for obvious reasons.

Winning bias is so strong it's insane. He was two possessions away from winning Finals MVP for a 73-9 team.

[dooki667]

His game 7 performance in the finals might be the best game 7 finals performance of all-time as well. It always gets ignored for obvious reasons.

Yess 32 pts 15 boards 9 assists 2 stl 6-8 from 3pt a ts% of .955 lol assist % of 44% O rating of 172 d rating of 97 A bpm of 24 and dang near 47 minutes. yeah good game

[OhayoKD]

His game 7 performance in the finals might be the best game 7 finals performance of all-time as well. It always gets ignored for obvious reasons.

Yess 32 pts 15 boards 9 assists 2 stl 6-8 from 3pt a ts% of .955 lol assist % of 44% O rating of 172 d rating of 97 A bpm of 24 and dang near 47 minutes. yeah good game

A defensive big racking up crazy BPM is especially impressive given how the stat works

[homecourtloss]

Winning bias is so strong it's insane. He was two possessions away from winning Finals MVP for a 73-9 team.

It’s more than just winning bias—it’s another layer of bias, one that’s related to the Schrödinger’s Kevin Love effect, i.e., you don’t know if KLove is a key cog of a “superteam,” or his 1.5 game absence in the Finals in which “Bogut hurt, Iggy hurt, Draymond suspension” is mentioned every single time is ignored/not mentioned until the context of the conversation is brought up.

[ShotCreator]

What Draymond offers defensively is more portable than what Manu offers offensively.

Perhaps it is, but that's not a point, we're talking about overall impact, not about Dray's defense vs Manu's offense, and overall portability, not offensive vs defensive portability by, respectively, Manu and Dray. I wrote about Manu offense because it's kind of obvious All-NBA D guard would fit any lineup, same with Dray's DPOTY-level D.

Once Green post ~2017 started to struggle with his jumper - him being ~neutral offensively was directly related to Curry/Warriors' system being one of a kind that could optimize his specific offensive skillset (handles and passing). In less screen/offball movement-dependent offense (let's say around Jokic/Giannis/LeBron, not Steph, so still the very top tier of NBA players), I'm pretty sure he would've been net negative on offense (to much bigger degree, if the one assumes he's negative already in that period). That doesn't mean he wouldn't be still very good etc. - and it's not a straight-forward criticism per se (he could fit in one of the all-time great teams offensively for a reason). But yeah, him being DPOTY-level defender useful on offense - the latter part, I should say - was very circumstantial.

Manu went +10 net on a championship team without his best player on a court, so I don't think win-improvement is any indication of him being 'more favored situationally'. He obviously was, in this sense that he played on an all-time great franchise, but not in terms of his 'skillset optimization'.

So if by 'peak' the OP meant 'better best season', I can go with Dray (DPOTY defender - respectable shooter - great playmaker), although it's very close (2005s Manu is legendary in terms of pure impact for a 2nd option). Manu's best years are better than any non-decent shooting season of Dray, and that's like everything besides 2016 + 2017 playoffs (not a full season tho), I believe.

Eh. GS didn't win 67 in 17 with Durant missing a third of the season because Draymond fell off. 17 Draymond was fine. Just like 15 Draymond was fine without shooting 3's well.

18 AND 19 Draymond seasons are the ones where he clearly took some possessions off and GS felt it with a sliding RS performance. On top of the poor 3P shooting. OTOH, he crushed the West in the playoffs both runs playing at all-NBA level.

[SportsGuru08]

Draymond in the 2016 playoffs was literally 4-2 in games Steph missed, leading GSW past two playoff teams.

What did Manu do in the playoffs without Duncan?

What happened in 2020 when Steph & Klay were injured and Durant had left and it was only Draymond available?

Oh right, worst record in the West. Stop acting like Draymond is Larry Bird, especially when they won their most recent title in spite of him.

Draymond was put in a minutes restriction and still posted better lineup data than Steph?

It's really funny seeing people try and dismiss Draymond's consistently strong impact-on-winning profile...by cherrypicking years from a stretch...where he still looks very impactful to winning:

Spoiler:

not really much wowy to use for draymond's peak peak but for his career, per statmuse, the warriors play like a .500 team without him and 55-team with. Not sure what the sample there is though on a per-season basis.

For what its worth, we do have a substantial "back-end of prime" sample for 2021 where the warriors go from a game under .500 without to a 45-win pace with and 2022 where the Warriors go from 17-15 without to a 60-win pace with.

Combined that gets the Warriors to .500 without Draymond Green(23-22) and 51-win with.

If we toss in the year he was minutes restricted(and the warriors were trying to lose) we get a 34 win pace without and a 45-win pace with Draymond scoring half as many points on worse effeciency than he did in 2016 when he was busting rapm and lineup-rating and on/off.

Roughly 11 win lift over a artifically depressed sample(2020 was thrown in) provides support for --peak-- Draymond being a pretty good floor-raiser beyond all that lineup stuff we have access to. Though enigma's probably right thurmond is more proven there

Three years of solid floor-raising(to a degree manu has never showed with this sort of approach) well post-peak with a sample significantly distorted by a year Draymond was on a minutes restriction and the warriors objective was to secure a top lottery pick. And obviously elevates in the postseason.

Defense is a thing.

What minutes restriction? He averaged more MPG in the Finals than in the prior rounds. And he was at his least productive; more turnovers than field goals. Through four games, more fouls than points. And don't give me this nonsense about defense. Draymond's defense has been overrated for years.

He also averaged as many MPG in 2020 as he did in 2022. The difference is he didn't have Curry to carry him in 2020.

Never has a player's reputation and legacy been more inflated due to playing on a dynasty than Draymond Green. Put him on the Pistons during those years and let's see how he looks

[Clyde Frazier]

This is easier than I thought. Manu was obviously a great player, but when you factor in his lack of volatility emotionally vs draymond, there's not much to think about. Draymond sabotaging the potential 2016 championship was really absurd. Which is pretty ironic given that's widely considered his peak.