RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Wes Unseld)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
I would rather count on Paul George for scoring than Bobby Jones. I would rather count on Bobby Jones for defense, leadership, and being out there every night than Paul George. When I look at it holistically, I have Bobby Jones pretty clearly on top in terms of contributing to a winning atmosphere and chance at an NBA title for most combinations of players. If I desperately need a scoring option, then I'd go George first though.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
OhayoKD wrote:trex_8063 wrote:[Alternate nom: Bob Cousy[/b]
Could also support Allen Iverson if he drew support, though I doubt he will. Not a fan; hate how I often end up being his defender. Dame's offensive imprint is crazy, he needs serious consideration here.
Cousy's a legend, prototype [to a degree], key piece of multiple contenders, has an impact profile that's better than many assume, particularly considering the ORtg/DRtg's on bbref may be skewed by assumed turnover rates which may not apply to the Celtics of circa-1960 [because they were jacking up shots so early in the shotclock]......which means their offense was possibly better [and defense worse] than indicated.
Could you elaborate on that profile? All I recall was Ben's writeup saying the Celtics got better without him over multiple >10 game samples in Cousy's post-prime and a bunch of breakdowns her arguing he was kind of done by 60.
Will first emphasize that your above comments appear to specifically delineate Cousy's post-prime. And I'll also acknowledge that the league/game progressed faster than Cousy did as a player.
That said, the limited/noisy impact metric from the very same source (Ben Taylor) reflects decently upon Cousy: his prime WOWYR is +4.4, career +3.9.
Here are some notable players +/- 0.2 from Cousy's prime figure (noting their rank on this list, if already inducted):
Walt Frazier (#35)
Tony Parker
Isiah Thomas (#58)
Eddie Jones
Billy Cunningham
Tracy McGrady (#69)
Al Horford
Chris Bosh
Chris Webber
Zelmo Beaty
Alonzo Mourning (#60)
Robert Parish (#65)
Adrian Dantley
Scottie Pippen (#32)
Dwight Howard (#49)
Here are some notables +/- 0.2 from his career figure:
Sidney Moncrief
Anfernee Hardaway
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (#2)
Charles Barkley (#28)
Marc Gasol
Chris Bosh
Andre Iguodala
Gary Payton (#53)
Jeff Hornacek
Scottie Pippen (#32)
Horace Grant
Alex English
Dennis Rodman
Jack Sikma
Bob Pettit (#31)
Bailey Howell
Paul Millsap
So that's reasonably solid company.
I've heard it stated [as criticism of Cousy] that they improved [overall] in the years immediately following his departure. This is not entirely surprising when you look at the details......
They had existing depth at the tail-end of his career which they then tapped into a bit more. The year immediately after his departure saw a slight dip in playing time for Frank Ramsey as well, fwiw; but compensating were significant bumps in playing time for KC Jones, John Havlicek, and Tom Sanders, none of whom were remotely overtaxed in terms of minute-burden in '63 [or even in '64, after the bump]. They also added to the roster Willie Naulls (plus a rookie Larry Siegfried, though he wouldn't receive relevant playing time until '65).
So that's pretty good compensation for losing a post-prime Cousy [who was only playing 26 mpg in his final season].
'65 also saw notable increase for Sam Jones. Jones and Havlicek both improved [above what they were in Cousy's final season] as we move into the mid-late 60s.
Also worth noting that in our last FOUR peaks projects, Bill Russell's consensus peak was either '64 or '65.
So there are a number of reasons why the loss of a [ahem: post-prime, limited-minute] Cousy did not damage their success.
All the same, I note that the single-greatest Russell-Celtic team according to Sansterre's methodology, was the '61 Celtics (Cousy 2nd on the team in playing time at 32.5 mpg). Ranks of Russell's teams on Sansterre's list.....
'61 Celtics (#33) - Cousy 32.5 mpg
'65 Celtics (#44)
'64 Celtics (#55)
'60 Celtics (#58) - Cousy 34.5 mpg
'62 Celtics (#61) - Cousy 28.2 mpg
'57 Celtics (#69) - Cousy a team-high 36.9 mpg [and his dubious MVP, fwiw]
'59 Celtics (#70) - Cousy 37.0 mpg
'66 Celtics (#80)
'69 Celtics (#82)
By his methodology, 4 of the 6 worst teams of the Russell-era came AFTER Cousy left.
And the single BEST team, as well as 5 of the top 7 (including one in which a rookie Bill Russell [whom I've contested was perhaps the single-worst version of Russell] missed a third of the rs) occurred while Cousy was there.
I've also previously noted that the single-worst rORTG (at least those based on the existing pace estimates) in franchise history......was the the year immediately after Cousy's departure. Yes, they got significantly BETTER on defense, but again: increased minutes for KC Jones, Tom Sanders, and John Havlicek.......an improvement on defense should be expected.
Though generally the rORTG/rDRTG's during that time period might be taken with a grain of salt. Their pace was extraordinary (often even relative to a fast-paced league); and watching them you'll see them jacking up [often bad] shots EARLY in the shotclock, BEFORE there's much chance to turn it over.
This is relevant because the pace estimates are assuming a certain number of turnovers [relative to shot attempts], which may not always be true (I would is LIKELY NOT true, in the case of those fast-paced Celtic teams). Note the worst of the rORTG's begin to appear not only right when Russell arrives, but basically right when the insane raw pace estimates begin showing up.
If those are indeed inaccurate, the reality is that the ORtg's of those Celtic teams were actually a little BETTER than indicated (while the defense was marginally WORSE). It's worth speculating on how that might affect your opinion of Bill Russell and Bob Cousy (among others).
And I do note that there were some fairly successful Celtic teams (and particularly successful on offense) in the early 50s with Cousy at the helm.
So anyway, these are things I have in mind when I say Cousy's impact signals are respectable.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
I think Tony Parker is a decent comparison. Messy because of how each person weighs in-league status versus quality of play / quality of league, and in this case I go more for the latter, but as flawed star guards who were notable but not necessarily essential pieces on dynasties driven by all-time defensive anchors and culture-setters, I could see the two being placed closely alongside each other.
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
I would also point out that the only Russell season that would be considered prime Cousy is probably 57. Although his level of RS play didn't drop much after that year (his post-season play did), the league was rapidly improving around him and so his performance relative to his peers would suffer. He was one of, quite probably the greatest guard of the 50s.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
Induction Vote #1: Wes Unseld
Induction Vote #2: Cliff Hagan
The evidence suggests Unseld was an efficient(low-volume) scorer, great rebounder, good defender(built like a brick wall despite only being 6'7'), great playmaker, great leader, and what looks like perhaps the best combination of primacy and team success on the current ballot.
No one here has a better resume than Unseld - four Finals appearances, an MVP, a Finals MVP(though you may feel it undeserved), NBA 50 at 50/75 at 75 placement, etc. It's just hard to ignore, even if his box numbers don't jump out besides the rebounding and maybe the efficiency.
My opinion on Bobby Jones has gone up a lot over the course of the project, particularly recently as he's been on the ballot, and I really considered him here, but I just can't see him being more important to his teams than Unseld was to his.
He might've gotten my second vote here, but I don't think it would do any good because this round looks like it's coming down to him and Unseld. So I'll stick with Hagan there, but that could change in future rounds.
Induction Vote #1: Adrian Dantley
Induction Vote #2: Allen Iverson
As always, Dantley's TS Add is ridiculous and I don't know much longer we're going to keep ignoring it.
Going with Iverson as my #2 vote without thinking about it much.
Induction Vote #2: Cliff Hagan
The evidence suggests Unseld was an efficient(low-volume) scorer, great rebounder, good defender(built like a brick wall despite only being 6'7'), great playmaker, great leader, and what looks like perhaps the best combination of primacy and team success on the current ballot.
No one here has a better resume than Unseld - four Finals appearances, an MVP, a Finals MVP(though you may feel it undeserved), NBA 50 at 50/75 at 75 placement, etc. It's just hard to ignore, even if his box numbers don't jump out besides the rebounding and maybe the efficiency.
My opinion on Bobby Jones has gone up a lot over the course of the project, particularly recently as he's been on the ballot, and I really considered him here, but I just can't see him being more important to his teams than Unseld was to his.
He might've gotten my second vote here, but I don't think it would do any good because this round looks like it's coming down to him and Unseld. So I'll stick with Hagan there, but that could change in future rounds.
Induction Vote #1: Adrian Dantley
Induction Vote #2: Allen Iverson
As always, Dantley's TS Add is ridiculous and I don't know much longer we're going to keep ignoring it.
Going with Iverson as my #2 vote without thinking about it much.
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
Vote Wes Unseld
I'm sold on his defensive impact due to strength and mobility combo and has great passing, screen setting, etc. An interesting apparent impact vs boxscore player but I'm ok with trusting the at the time eval on the former.
2nd: George
Nominate Damian Lillard
Falls into a camp of not quite top guy on a contender level, but next level down with a healthy enough longevity. I like his skillset on offense when we know how valuable the better version of him Curry has been, I believe it's more portable than say Grant Hill.
2nd: Sam Jones
I'll give some thoughts on Cousy next thread since this one is almost wrapped
I'm sold on his defensive impact due to strength and mobility combo and has great passing, screen setting, etc. An interesting apparent impact vs boxscore player but I'm ok with trusting the at the time eval on the former.
2nd: George
Nominate Damian Lillard
Falls into a camp of not quite top guy on a contender level, but next level down with a healthy enough longevity. I like his skillset on offense when we know how valuable the better version of him Curry has been, I believe it's more portable than say Grant Hill.
2nd: Sam Jones
I'll give some thoughts on Cousy next thread since this one is almost wrapped
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
Vote
1. Paul George Saw his teams overperform their perceived against this projects's #1 multiple times(granted injuries helped) on multiple eventual champions, had an mvpish regular season peak and for all choking accusations, admirably led the clippers in kawhi's absence in the 2021 playoffs.
Nomination
1. Damian Lillard
Alt: Dantley
will look to back Walton and Gobert when they get enough support.
1. Paul George Saw his teams overperform their perceived against this projects's #1 multiple times(granted injuries helped) on multiple eventual champions, had an mvpish regular season peak and for all choking accusations, admirably led the clippers in kawhi's absence in the 2021 playoffs.
Nomination
1. Damian Lillard
Alt: Dantley
will look to back Walton and Gobert when they get enough support.
Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
My vote:
Induction 1: Bobby Jones
Induction 2: Wes Unseld
Continuing to side with Bobby and I think Unseld has a strong case as well - I have him above teammate Hayes. There's a unifying theme with these two in that they are such team-oriented players born to contribute to elite teams.
Nomination 1: Damian Lillard
Nomination 2: Jayson Tatum
I'll jump on the Damewagon. I've got a bunch of guys right now that I'm debating for nomination and he's been one of them for a few thread. I'll consider thinking on this with the Induction decision but we're certainly around the tier that Lillard should be imho.
Shouting out Tatum again. When we talk about weak longevity, just keep in mind we voted in Embiid quite a long time ago now and Tatum has superior longevity to Embiid while achieving drastically more in the playoffs.
Induction 1: Bobby Jones
Induction 2: Wes Unseld
Continuing to side with Bobby and I think Unseld has a strong case as well - I have him above teammate Hayes. There's a unifying theme with these two in that they are such team-oriented players born to contribute to elite teams.
Nomination 1: Damian Lillard
Nomination 2: Jayson Tatum
I'll jump on the Damewagon. I've got a bunch of guys right now that I'm debating for nomination and he's been one of them for a few thread. I'll consider thinking on this with the Induction decision but we're certainly around the tier that Lillard should be imho.
Shouting out Tatum again. When we talk about weak longevity, just keep in mind we voted in Embiid quite a long time ago now and Tatum has superior longevity to Embiid while achieving drastically more in the playoffs.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #71 (Deadline ~5am PST, 2/10/24)
Tally:
Induction 1:
Unseld - 4 (AEnimga, HBK, OSNB, Dr P)
Bobby - 3 (beast, Samurai, Doc)
Sheed - 1 (trelos)
George - 2 (trex, Ohayo)
No majority, going to 2nd vote between Wes & Bobby:
Unseld - 1 (trex)
Bobby - 0 (none)
neither - 2 (trelos, Ohayo)
Wes Unseld 5, Bobby Jones 3
Wes Unseld is Inducted at #71.

Nomination 1:
Lillard - 6 (AEnigma, trelos, trex, Dr P, Ohayo, Doc)
Dantley - 2 (beast, OSNB)
Sam - 1 (Samurai)
Walton - 1 (HBK)
Damian Lillard takes it with majority.
Damian Lillard is added to Nomination list.

Induction 1:
Unseld - 4 (AEnimga, HBK, OSNB, Dr P)
Bobby - 3 (beast, Samurai, Doc)
Sheed - 1 (trelos)
George - 2 (trex, Ohayo)
No majority, going to 2nd vote between Wes & Bobby:
Unseld - 1 (trex)
Bobby - 0 (none)
neither - 2 (trelos, Ohayo)
Wes Unseld 5, Bobby Jones 3
Wes Unseld is Inducted at #71.

Nomination 1:
Lillard - 6 (AEnigma, trelos, trex, Dr P, Ohayo, Doc)
Dantley - 2 (beast, OSNB)
Sam - 1 (Samurai)
Walton - 1 (HBK)
Damian Lillard takes it with majority.
Damian Lillard is added to Nomination list.
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