Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron?

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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#41 » by Gregoire » Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:20 pm

From a peak perspective:
Tier One: Magic, MJ
Tier Two: Nash, Oscar, Curry, Joker
Tier 3: Lebron, Bird, Shaq, Kareem, Dirk, West, Nash

So, 6 undoubtedly better and 12 (6+6) have a case.
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#42 » by falcolombardi » Tue Jan 23, 2024 6:37 pm

Gregoire wrote:From a peak perspective:
Tier One: Magic, MJ
Tier Two: Nash, Oscar, Curry, Joker
Tier 3: Lebron, Bird, Shaq, Kareem, Dirk, West, Nash

So, 6 undoubtedly better and 12 (6+6) have a case.


Magic and nash had near identical box score numbers, near identical offensive team success (higher for nash, and the highest ever) yet you put magic two tiers aheas

Lebron had better offenses over his prime -and- peak than curry, even when curry got durant + klay lebron teams did better with kirye + love offensively and had bettwr playoffs offenses than jordan too.

Jordan too high om your list, nash and lebron too low
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#43 » by The Explorer » Tue Jan 23, 2024 7:19 pm

Gregoire wrote:From a peak perspective:
Tier One: Magic, MJ
Tier Two: Nash, Oscar, Curry, Joker
Tier 3: Lebron, Bird, Shaq, Kareem, Dirk, West, Nash

So, 6 undoubtedly better and 12 (6+6) have a case.


I would add Chamberlain to tier 1. The man was as dominant as you could possibly get.
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#44 » by falcolombardi » Tue Jan 23, 2024 7:42 pm

The Explorer wrote:
Gregoire wrote:From a peak perspective:
Tier One: Magic, MJ
Tier Two: Nash, Oscar, Curry, Joker
Tier 3: Lebron, Bird, Shaq, Kareem, Dirk, West, Nash

So, 6 undoubtedly better and 12 (6+6) have a case.


I would add Chamberlain to tier 1. The man was as dominant as you could possibly get.


Wilt has zero case for that
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#45 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:51 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Jordan just plain was better than LeBron.

Give Jordan the floor spaced out by 3 point shooters and the lack of help defenders in the paint.




I don't get why we "have" to do this. Lebron James played in different eras and was a dominant player in all of them. It isn't just because he plays with 3 point shooters that he is dominate. That doesn't even make that much sense, and Jordan could not play point like Lebron James could, so he was not just a better version of James.

Am I missing something, did Jordan play in an era that was unfavorable to him?


Jordan did a good job of playing point for a few months in I think 1988. I think Sam Vincent started the year as the point guard and then Jordan finished the year as the point guard. Paxson Hodges or both of them replaced Sam Vincent. Paxson Hodges and Kerr were more shooters than they were point guards. Harper and Randy Brown also were not really point guards. Armstrong was a point guard but he was a better shooter than he was a playmaker and he was a mediocre playmaker in the 1st 3peat. Pippen was the main point forward for the championships not that Pippen was a better point guard than Jordan they Just did not want Jordan to have to be the point guard.

If Jordan was surrounded by 3 point shooters you would probably make Jordan the point guard and have him play a more LeBron like game.

Jordan’s era was a disadvantage for Jordan’s shooting efficiency because he was driving into a packed paint. Even his midrange game often had a help defender.

I don’t think as highly of LeBrons passing as most so. I don’t think LeBron was as good a point guard as Mo Williams for the point guard play not counting the scoring threat. I other words in a non shooting Rondo like roll Mo Williams would be better than LeBron. LeBron’s threat to score was why the ball needed to be in LeBron’s hands and the fact that LeBron could pass well was a bonus.
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#46 » by SHAQ32 » Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:56 pm

In no order - Dirk, Barkley, Magic, Nash, Bird, Shaq, KMalone, Kareem, Jordan, CPaul, etc. More names than I think most people realize or admit.
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#47 » by falcolombardi » Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:27 pm

SHAQ32 wrote:In no order - Dirk, Barkley, Magic, Nash, Bird, Shaq, KMalone, Kareem, Jordan, CPaul, etc. More names than I think most people realize or admit.


Karl malone, barkley and chris paul absolutely have no case over lebron lmao

Neither do kareem, bird or dirk for that matter

In general is wild to bring karl malone before kobe or curry or oscar for that matter
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#48 » by SHAQ32 » Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:40 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
SHAQ32 wrote:In no order - Dirk, Barkley, Magic, Nash, Bird, Shaq, KMalone, Kareem, Jordan, CPaul, etc. More names than I think most people realize or admit.


kobe or curry or oscar


I meant 'etc' meaning there were more names and that was just off the top of my head. I would include those guys as well as Jokic and others.
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#49 » by pancakes3 » Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:51 pm

Imo, Durant is as perfect a player as you can get at the wing position. 50/40/90 shooter who can (1) get anywhere; (2) score from anywhere; and (3) score anyway you're giving him. And he can/does make the right pass pretty much all the time. plus the physical tools.

Jokic is just 1 of 1, broke the mold, nobody can do what he does, and what he's doing is unreal. Same with Steph. Hacked the game. Played it in a way that nobody else could, and nobody knows what to do with it.

MJ just couldn't be stopped. He might not be green-zone anywhere from the court like KD, but you couldn't stop him from doing what he was going to do. Shaq, Harden, Kobe, and Kareem could be bothered and slowed down, even if it was marginal.

And everyone else is just too flawed/limited (relatively speaking). Good scorers, but maybe not a passer. Good playmakers but couldn't score at will. No handles. Etc.
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#50 » by The Explorer » Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:34 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
The Explorer wrote:
Gregoire wrote:From a peak perspective:
Tier One: Magic, MJ
Tier Two: Nash, Oscar, Curry, Joker
Tier 3: Lebron, Bird, Shaq, Kareem, Dirk, West, Nash

So, 6 undoubtedly better and 12 (6+6) have a case.


I would add Chamberlain to tier 1. The man was as dominant as you could possibly get.


Wilt has zero case for that


What offensive tier does Wilt belong in then?
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#51 » by falcolombardi » Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:39 pm

The Explorer wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
The Explorer wrote:
I would add Chamberlain to tier 1. The man was as dominant as you could possibly get.


Wilt has zero case for that


What offensive tier does Wilt belong in then?


Not tier 1 that is for sure. For all his scoring prowess and eventually strong passing (and off rebounding) he was never able to lead great offenses sans 1 time as the lead, and way too often his teams didnt improve offensively with him.

I would easily put him below all the guys you mentioned in your 3 tiers, so tier 4 or lower which is is still really good for an all time defensive player
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#52 » by OhayoKD » Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:46 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Jordan just plain was better than LeBron.

Give Jordan the floor spaced out by 3 point shooters and the lack of help defenders in the paint.




I don't get why we "have" to do this. Lebron James played in different eras and was a dominant player in all of them. It isn't just because he plays with 3 point shooters that he is dominate. That doesn't even make that much sense, and Jordan could not play point like Lebron James could, so he was not just a better version of James.

Am I missing something, did Jordan play in an era that was unfavorable to him?


Jordan did a good job of playing point for a few months in I think 1988.

*1989


I don’t think as highly of LeBrons passing as most so. I don’t think LeBron was as good a point guard as Mo Williams for the point guard play not counting the scoring threat. I other words in a non shooting Rondo like roll Mo Williams would be better than LeBron. LeBron’s threat to score was why the ball needed to be in LeBron’s hands and the fact that LeBron could pass well was a bonus.

Again,
Spoiler:
lebron archangel, 11-0 +8 net with starters(- mo williams) that went 19-wins without[/b]

jordan archangel, 13-11, +2 net, with a team that won 27 before he got there


If .500 is "good job" what is going undefeated
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#53 » by falcolombardi » Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:38 pm

Did someone in this thread just say mo williams > lebron as point guards?
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#54 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:44 am

SHAQ32 wrote:In no order - Dirk, Barkley, Magic, Nash, Bird, Shaq, KMalone, Kareem, Jordan, CPaul, etc. More names than I think most people realize or admit.


How much territory does the phrase “case over” cover?

I moved from Boston to Oakland in 1991. I was a Celtic fan who was sad When Bird no longer had a case over Jordan.

I had fun when the 8th seed 2008 Warriors beat the 1st seed Mavericks team that was expected to win the Championshio. I don’t think Dirk and most of the guys in your list have case over LeBron.

“Case over” requires some doubt about who was better.

Your list of guys a rung below LeBron and Jordan Curry, Kareem Wikt and Kobe
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#55 » by NbaAllDay » Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:14 am

Jordan, Magic are the only two I see as having a Strong Case.

Oscar, Nash, Curry, Jokic (needs more years) as lower case.

One thing I find is often underatted or forgotten is Lebrons ability to Lead top level offenses across mutiple different offense styles through the 00s, early 10s and transition into the more current offence in mid to later 10s.

Most ATG offenses have been run in a similar way (with the above players running it)

I don't think any other players has proven ATG offensive across multiple styles.

To me that shows a higher level of offense ability over perfecting a similar style for x time.

Jordan and Magic did it for long enough (and at a GOAT level) that they could overcome some of the longevity arguements imo.
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#56 » by falcolombardi » Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:02 am

To put lebron offense success into context, these are some player best 5 year offense stretches

Curry:
2015 +4 (RS) +4.1(PS)
2016 +7.9(RS)+5.7(PS)
2017 +6.8(RS)+11.6 (PS)
2018 + 5.0(RS)+6.5(PS)
2019 + 5.5(RS)+5.4 (PS)
average: 5.85 (RS) 6.6(PS)
combined average: +6.2

Lebron
2013 +6.4 (RS) +7.2 (PS)
2014 +4.2 (RS) +10.6 (PS)
2015 +5.5(RS) +5.5 (PS)
2016 +4.5(RS) +12.5 (PS)
2017 +4.8 (RS) +13.7 (PS)
Average +5.1(RS) +9.9 (PS)
combined average: +7.5

jordan* (i had to use his first 5 championship seasons)
1991 +6.7(RS) +11.7 (PS)
1992 +7.3(RS) +6.5 (PS)
1993 +4.9 (RS) +9.8 (PS)
1996 +7.6 (RS) +8.6 (PS)
1997 +7.7(RS) +6.5(PS)
average +6.85 (RS) +8.6(PS)
combined average:+7.7

nash

2005 suns. +8.4(RS) +17 (PS)
2006 suns +5.3(RS) +9.5 (PS)
2007 suns +7.4(RS)+7.6 (PS)
2008 suns. +5.8(RS) + 3.1 (PS)
2010 suns +7.7(RS) +13.4 (PS)
Average +6.9(RS) + 10.1 (PS)
combined average: +8.5

shaq

1998 +6.9(RS), +10.1(PS)
1999 +5.4(RS), +4.7(PS)
2000 +3.2(RS), +9.3(PS)
2001 +5.4 (RS) +13.6(PS)
2002 +4.9(RS), +6.4 (PS)
Average +5.2(RS) +8.8(PS)
combined average: +7

bird

1984 +3.3 (RS) +6.4 (PS)
1985 +4.9 (RS) +3.9 (PS)
1986 +4.6 (RS) + 8.3 (PS)
1987 +5.2 (RS) + 8.7 (PS)
1988 +7.4 (RS) +4.2 (PS)
average +5.1(RS) +6.3(PS)
combined average: +5.7

magic

1986 +6.1(RS) +6.7
1987 +7.6 (RS) +10.7
1988 +5.1(RS) +8.3
1989 +6 (RS) +9.3
1990 +5.9(RS) +8.4
Average +6.1(RS), + 8.7 (PS)
combined average: +7.4

Lebron resume for peak offense really only loses imo to magic and nash runs, and the longevity/sample size as lead offense star dwards anyone else
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Re: Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron? 

Post#57 » by OhayoKD » Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:26 pm

Rishkar wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
Rishkar wrote:I think you may somewhat underestimate Lebron's scoring prowess here.

I think you're right, and thanks to I had never seen rTS data for Lebron before and woefully underestimated his efficiency. Is there a spreadsheet or website that has it? I know Ben Taylor cites it frequently on backpacks and it occasionally gets brought up on this board, but I've never figured out where to access it. Thanks to you and
falcolombardi wrote:
for helping point out weak points in my list

You can find it for any player after the stat is recorded by going to basketball reference and
1. Checking a player's true-shooting in a season
2. Checking the true-shooting for the league that season
3. Adding/subtracting the player's true-shooting vs league average

Ben also included the scoring numbers for both in his oscar and lebron james backpicks writesups including a graph i just riffed off on the lebron backpicks page.

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