Does an All-Modern Starting 5 beat the OG All-Time Starting 5?

[giordunk]

For quite a long time, the most common "greatest starting 5" would look something like

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Your favorite of Kareem/Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Olajuwon

For modern, basically anyone that's been part of the LeBron era. I will exclude guys like Kobe/KG who were part of Duncan's generation.

Going with a slightly less traditional lineup...

LeBron James
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Nikola Jokic
Joel Embiid

Considered slotting in Kawhi instead of Curry for defensive purposes, but decided against it.

Watching this Wolves/Nuggets series I love seeing these two big lineups from the Timberwolves. Jokic/Embiid is essentially a supercharged Towns/Gobert Twin Towers. This also gives me a better chance against matching up against Duncan at the 4.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Giannis in place of Embiid is better I think.

Curry is undersized and is going to have matchup issues on defense.

[OhayoKD]

Giannis in place of Embiid is better I think.

Curry is undersized and is going to have matchup issues on defense.

Larry Bird is a much bigger positional liability here than Steph is.

Either way team 2 decimiates. Far more talented with 4 players arguable against anyone from team 1 and one head and shoulders above.

Unless you are doing some era-relative curving, this is a one-way blood bath. The 3-point differential alone makes this lopsided and the fact it's the modern squad with the 2of the 3 best post-players just compounds matters.

[SkyHookFTW]

I’d be interested in seeing how Jokic or Embiid would handle the pure size and strength of Wilt or Shaq.

[penbeast0]

Not worried about Curry, his matchup problems will be equaled by any of the OG's trying to guard him out in space (presumably MJ). Embiid, however, has such health issues in addition to his fit issues next to Jokic that I must agree that Giannis would be a better pick both defensively and even offensively.

Okayo has a point however. Modern 3 point heavy offenses have proven more effective than traditional post offenses over a fairly long period of time now. OG v. modern with no 3 pointer is a different story however (and I would use Russell at center, they don't need the extra scoring as much as the extra defense, foot speed, and BBIQ).

[OhayoKD]

Not worried about Curry, his matchup problems will be equaled by any of the OG's trying to guard him out in space (presumably MJ). Embiid, however, has such health issues in addition to his fit issues next to Jokic that I must agree that Giannis would be a better pick both defensively and even offensively.

Giannis is a better pick but that clunkyness is not nearly as problematic as having to hide magic and bird at the same time. Bird's brain isn't going to do him favors when 3 of the 5 players on the other team are smarter defenders, and he doesn't have the physical tools to do anything against anyone on defense against anyone on team 2 as a man or help defender.

Attentively ball watching better than your peers may have cut it in 86, but it's getting you diced up here.

[penbeast0]

Not worried about Curry, his matchup problems will be equaled by any of the OG's trying to guard him out in space (presumably MJ). Embiid, however, has such health issues in addition to his fit issues next to Jokic that I must agree that Giannis would be a better pick both defensively and even offensively.

Giannis is a better pick but that clunkyness is not nearly as problematic as having to hide magic and bird at the same time. Bird's brain isn't going to do him favors when 3 of the 5 players on the other team are smarter defenders, and he doesn't have the physical tools to do anything against anyone on defense against anyone on team 2 as a man or help defender.

Attentively ball watching better than your peers may have cut it in 86, but it's getting you diced up here.

And do you still feel that way if the 3 point shot was removed and they played with 1970s NBA rules?

[Ol Roy]

It seems the commonly stated greatest starting five (OG) is actually the "greatest at each position" starting lineup. Putting aside for a moment that you could argue Bird and Duncan are at the wrong positions, I don't understand matching up this lineup with a modern one that is essentially positionless, with 3/5 players at the "wrong" position. You could perhaps make the OG lineup better with the same positional flexibility.

For this sort of exercise, I think there is a marked advantage in picking two-way players with size and athletic advantages. Some argue that with so many great scorers, you can use a position on a defensive specialist, but that misses the point. If everyone is an elite offensive threat, it is hard to justify doubling any one player, and it opens up opportunities for the entire squad. Consequently, the ability to spread the offensive load also frees up energy on defense, so you want players that have the tools and willpower to utilize that rest on the other end. There are many two-way greats who would have been considered better at either end than the "specialists" if they had solely focused on one side of the game.

I don't think it is necessary to stick to official positions. Filling roles and creating mismatches is more important than satisfying a lineup card. If you have players versatile enough to "move up" a position, you can really create a mismatch nightmare. With all of that said, I'll swing back around to the original question being posed and assume I'm facing Johnson/Jordan/Bird/Duncan/Kareem but can come up with any modern lineup I choose.

With matchups and two-way play in mind, I'd probably go with James/George/Leonard/Durant/Davis. Still a big shooting advantage, but without the defensive weaknesses that Curry and Jokic bring with them.

[SNPA]

Giannis in place of Embiid is better I think.

Curry is undersized and is going to have matchup issues on defense.

Larry Bird is a much bigger positional liability here than Steph is.

Either way team 2 decimiates. Far more talented with 4 players arguable against anyone from team 1 and one head and shoulders above.

Unless you are doing some era-relative curving, this is a one-way blood bath. The 3-point differential alone makes this lopsided and the fact it's the modern squad with the 2of the 3 best post-players just compounds mattersa.

Wut?

Bird was an all D team player. Wild people still think this.

[OhayoKD]

Not worried about Curry, his matchup problems will be equaled by any of the OG's trying to guard him out in space (presumably MJ). Embiid, however, has such health issues in addition to his fit issues next to Jokic that I must agree that Giannis would be a better pick both defensively and even offensively.

Giannis is a better pick but that clunkyness is not nearly as problematic as having to hide magic and bird at the same time. Bird's brain isn't going to do him favors when 3 of the 5 players on the other team are smarter defenders, and he doesn't have the physical tools to do anything against anyone on defense against anyone on team 2 as a man or help defender.

Attentively ball watching better than your peers may have cut it in 86, but it's getting you diced up here.

And do you still feel that way if the 3 point shot was removed and they played with 1970s NBA rules?

The mov shrinks but team 2 was built to win either way. Team 2 should have the advantage inside and in the post and taking away the 3-point mitigates some of the clunkyness of embid/jokic starting together. Swap Bird for a Kobe or Wade and this gets more interesting though there's still a significant "skill" deficit

[NoStatsGuy]

light work for modern 5.

lebron, steph, Jokic and KD play the right ball, while MJ doesnt pass. gon be a blowout

[Outside]

For quite a long time, the most common "greatest starting 5" would look something like

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Your favorite of Kareem/Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Olajuwon

For modern, basically anyone that's been part of the LeBron era. I will exclude guys like Kobe/KG who were part of Duncan's generation.

Going with a slightly less traditional lineup...

LeBron James
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Nikola Jokic
Joel Embiid

Considered slotting in Kawhi instead of Curry for defensive purposes, but decided against it.

Watching this Wolves/Nuggets series I love seeing these two big lineups from the Timberwolves. Jokic/Embiid is essentially a supercharged Towns/Gobert Twin Towers. This also gives me a better chance against matching up against Duncan at the 4.

Duncan is OG? It's less than 10 years since he retired.

Durant is not a good fit. If he's not the primary scorer, he doesn't add much, relatively speaking. His best use in that lineup is as a spot-up shooter for Jokic to pass to, and someone like peak Kawhi would be better in that role and better on defense.

Not sure about Jokic and Embiid together. Jokic and Duncan would be awesome.

Much would depend on the rules and reffing standards applied.

[OhayoKD]

For quite a long time, the most common "greatest starting 5" would look something like

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Your favorite of Kareem/Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Olajuwon

For modern, basically anyone that's been part of the LeBron era. I will exclude guys like Kobe/KG who were part of Duncan's generation.

Going with a slightly less traditional lineup...

LeBron James
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Nikola Jokic
Joel Embiid

Considered slotting in Kawhi instead of Curry for defensive purposes, but decided against it.

Watching this Wolves/Nuggets series I love seeing these two big lineups from the Timberwolves. Jokic/Embiid is essentially a supercharged Towns/Gobert Twin Towers. This also gives me a better chance against matching up against Duncan at the 4.

Duncan is OG? It's less than 10 years since he retired.

Durant is not a good fit. If he's not the primary scorer, he doesn't add much, relatively speaking. His best use in that lineup is as a spot-up shooter for Jokic to pass to, and someone like peak Kawhi would be better in that role and better on defense.

Not sure about Jokic and Embiid together. Jokic and Duncan would be awesome.

Much would depend on the rules and reffing standards applied.

The defense collapses if you replace duncan with Kawhi

[giordunk]

You're welcome to make your own modern starting 5 if you don't like mine.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

For quite a long time, the most common "greatest starting 5" would look something like

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Your favorite of Kareem/Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Olajuwon

For modern, basically anyone that's been part of the LeBron era. I will exclude guys like Kobe/KG who were part of Duncan's generation.

Going with a slightly less traditional lineup...

LeBron James
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Nikola Jokic
Joel Embiid

Considered slotting in Kawhi instead of Curry for defensive purposes, but decided against it.

Watching this Wolves/Nuggets series I love seeing these two big lineups from the Timberwolves. Jokic/Embiid is essentially a supercharged Towns/Gobert Twin Towers. This also gives me a better chance against matching up against Duncan at the 4.

Old time guys beat 2024 year guys but do not beat LeBron era guys with peak LeBron.

Play the playoff series with not 3 point shot and old time guys could beat LeBron Eara.

The power forward out of Jokic and Embiid would be a bit slow.

I started watching hometown Celtics the year before Bird arrived. Bird was not a small forward. Drives me nuts that people don’t know Bird was a power forward. Bird could not guard Dr J or Dominique, or even Robert Reid or Johny Newman so power forwards McHale and Maxwell guarded them. When you start 2 power forwards somebody must play out of position on defense. Bird was a great help defender and a good man defender as long as he was guarding power forwards. Bird successfully guarded small forward Rodney McCray in the 1986 finals but Rodney McCray had been a center in collegeand did not have a small forward drive or small forward outside shot. What McCray did best was pass and rebound. Celtics had to play McHale on 7’ 4” Samson who could shoot over 6’ 9” Bird.

Bird is a better power forward than Duncan if you disregard shot blocking. If my center blocks shot I do not need Duncan blocking shots as a power forward. Duncan played more than half of his minutes at center.

I choose Bird as the power forward with one of Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson or Shaq at center rather than playing Duncan at power forward or center.

[SNPA]

For quite a long time, the most common "greatest starting 5" would look something like

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Your favorite of Kareem/Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Olajuwon

For modern, basically anyone that's been part of the LeBron era. I will exclude guys like Kobe/KG who were part of Duncan's generation.

Going with a slightly less traditional lineup...

LeBron James
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Nikola Jokic
Joel Embiid

Considered slotting in Kawhi instead of Curry for defensive purposes, but decided against it.

Watching this Wolves/Nuggets series I love seeing these two big lineups from the Timberwolves. Jokic/Embiid is essentially a supercharged Towns/Gobert Twin Towers. This also gives me a better chance against matching up against Duncan at the 4.

Old time guys beat 2024 year guys but do not beat LeBron era guys with peak LeBron.

Play the playoff series with not 3 point shot and old time guys could beat LeBron Eara.

The power forward out of Jokic and Embiid would be a bit slow.

I started watching hometown Celtics the year before Bird arrived. Bird was not a small forward. Drives me nuts that people don’t know Bird was a power forward. Bird could not guard Dr J or Dominique, or even Robert Reid or Johny Newman so power forwards McHale and Maxwell guarded them. When you start 2 power forwards somebody must play out of position on defense. Bird was a great help defender and a good man defender as long as he was guarding power forwards. Bird successfully guarded small forward Rodney McCray in the 1986 finals but Rodney McCray had been a center in collegeand did not have a small forward drive or small forward outside shot. What McCray did best was pass and rebound. Celtics had to play McHale on 7’ 4” Samson who could shoot over 6’ 9” Bird.

Bird is a better power forward than Duncan if you disregard shot blocking. If my center blocks shot I do not need Duncan blocking shots as a power forward. Duncan played more than half of his minutes at center.

I choose Bird as the power forward with one of Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson or Shaq at center rather than playing Duncan at power forward or center.

Good post. Make Duncan guard Vince Carter on the perimeter and then say he is slow. That is the root of the Bird/Dominique criticism we see so much. There’s basically nothing to it…big guys struggle defending smaller guys away from the basket. Duh.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

For quite a long time, the most common "greatest starting 5" would look something like

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Your favorite of Kareem/Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Olajuwon

For modern, basically anyone that's been part of the LeBron era. I will exclude guys like Kobe/KG who were part of Duncan's generation.

Going with a slightly less traditional lineup...

LeBron James
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Nikola Jokic
Joel Embiid

Considered slotting in Kawhi instead of Curry for defensive purposes, but decided against it.

Watching this Wolves/Nuggets series I love seeing these two big lineups from the Timberwolves. Jokic/Embiid is essentially a supercharged Towns/Gobert Twin Towers. This also gives me a better chance against matching up against Duncan at the 4.

Old time guys beat 2024 year guys but do not beat LeBron era guys with peak LeBron.

Play the playoff series with not 3 point shot and old time guys could beat LeBron Eara.

The power forward out of Jokic and Embiid would be a bit slow.

I started watching hometown Celtics the year before Bird arrived. Bird was not a small forward. Drives me nuts that people don’t know Bird was a power forward. Bird could not guard Dr J or Dominique, or even Robert Reid or Johny Newman so power forwards McHale and Maxwell guarded them. When you start 2 power forwards somebody must play out of position on defense. Bird was a great help defender and a good man defender as long as he was guarding power forwards. Bird successfully guarded small forward Rodney McCray in the 1986 finals but Rodney McCray had been a center in collegeand did not have a small forward drive or small forward outside shot. What McCray did best was pass and rebound. Celtics had to play McHale on 7’ 4” Samson who could shoot over 6’ 9” Bird.

Bird is a better power forward than Duncan if you disregard shot blocking. If my center blocks shot I do not need Duncan blocking shots as a power forward. Duncan played more than half of his minutes at center.

I choose Bird as the power forward with one of Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson or Shaq at center rather than playing Duncan at power forward or center.

Good post. Make Duncan guard Vince Carter on the perimeter and then say he is slow. That is the root of the Bird/Dominique criticism we see so much. There’s basically nothing to it…big guys struggle defending smaller guys away from the basket. Duh.

Vs a good Hawk team Bird guarded Tree Rollins and played free safety because Rollins the big center was not a scorer. Parish gurded strong Kevin Willis who was basically a 2nd center who was a scorer. McHale who’s feet were even slower than Bird’s guarded Dominque because Dominque could blow past McHale’s feet but McHale’s hand would still be ontesting the shot because of McHale’s crazy long arms.

[penbeast0]

Old time guys beat 2024 year guys but do not beat LeBron era guys with peak LeBron.

Play the playoff series with not 3 point shot and old time guys could beat LeBron Eara.

The power forward out of Jokic and Embiid would be a bit slow.

I started watching hometown Celtics the year before Bird arrived. Bird was not a small forward. Drives me nuts that people don’t know Bird was a power forward. Bird could not guard Dr J or Dominique, or even Robert Reid or Johny Newman so power forwards McHale and Maxwell guarded them. When you start 2 power forwards somebody must play out of position on defense. Bird was a great help defender and a good man defender as long as he was guarding power forwards. Bird successfully guarded small forward Rodney McCray in the 1986 finals but Rodney McCray had been a center in collegeand did not have a small forward drive or small forward outside shot. What McCray did best was pass and rebound. Celtics had to play McHale on 7’ 4” Samson who could shoot over 6’ 9” Bird.

Bird is a better power forward than Duncan if you disregard shot blocking. If my center blocks shot I do not need Duncan blocking shots as a power forward. Duncan played more than half of his minutes at center.

I choose Bird as the power forward with one of Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson or Shaq at center rather than playing Duncan at power forward or center.

Good post. Make Duncan guard Vince Carter on the perimeter and then say he is slow. That is the root of the Bird/Dominique criticism we see so much. There’s basically nothing to it…big guys struggle defending smaller guys away from the basket. Duh.

Vs a good Hawk team Bird guarded Tree Rollins and played free safety because Rollins the big center was not a scorer. Parish gurded strong Kevin Willis who was basically a 2nd center who was a scorer. McHale who’s feet were even slower than Bird’s guarded Dominque because Dominque could blow past McHale’s feet but McHale’s hand would still be contesting the shot because of McHale’s crazy long arms.

McHale often defended the 3, but so did Bird. I remember the ECF v. Detroit where they were trying to use Bird on Adrian Dantley and Dantley made Bird look truly clueless. Not sure why Bird was on him but he frequently was. Bird frequently defended the 3 in Boston's system and frequently looked bad doing so.

I agree that Bird was a lot better defensively at the 4 where he was strong enough to contest post position and the 4's of his era didn't run him off the floor. Not sure he was a legit All-D selection even as a 4 but it was a lot closer to realistic. Also, a lot of my Bird memories are post back injury which can make a huge difference in how you play defense.

If I'm playing modern 4/5 out offense, I probably have West, Magic, Jordan, Bird, Russell as my go to 20th century lineup on the assumption that great shooters like West and Jordan can become outstanding 3 point shooters as well. And Bird may be slow footed but I'd bet on him torching Joel Embiid more than it would work the other way around.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Good post. Make Duncan guard Vince Carter on the perimeter and then say he is slow. That is the root of the Bird/Dominique criticism we see so much. There’s basically nothing to it…big guys struggle defending smaller guys away from the basket. Duh.

Vs a good Hawk team Bird guarded Tree Rollins and played free safety because Rollins the big center was not a scorer. Parish gurded strong Kevin Willis who was basically a 2nd center who was a scorer. McHale who’s feet were even slower than Bird’s guarded Dominque because Dominque could blow past McHale’s feet but McHale’s hand would still be contesting the shot because of McHale’s crazy long arms.

McHale often defended the 3, but so did Bird. I remember the ECF v. Detroit where they were trying to use Bird on Adrian Dantley and Dantley made Bird look truly clueless. Not sure why Bird was on him but he frequently was. Bird frequently defended the 3 in Boston's system and frequently looked bad doing so.

I agree that Bird was a lot better defensively at the 4 where he was strong enough to contest post position and the 4's of his era didn't run him off the floor. Not sure he was a legit All-D selection even as a 4 but it was a lot closer to realistic. Also, a lot of my Bird memories are post back injury which can make a huge difference in how you play defense.

If I'm playing modern 4/5 out offense, I probably have West, Magic, Jordan, Bird, Russell as my go to 20th century lineup on the assumption that great shooters like West and Jordan can become outstanding 3 point shooters as well. And Bird may be slow footed but I'd bet on him torching Joel Embiid more than it would work the other way around.

With rookie Bird the Celtics learned that Bird could not defend speedy guys like Dr J in man defense. Young Bird made all defensive teams because Bird was very good in team defense.

If the speedy dribble driving small forward could not shoot from the outside Bird could defend him by sagging into the paint.
Cedric Maxwell who had always defended power forwards power forwards prior to Bird’s arrival quickly had to learn to defend small forwards. Bird fans do not like Maxwell winning 1981 finals FMVP but I think it was right for Maxwell to win 1981 FMVP. More important was Maxwell’s defense on Dr J in the 1981 Eastern conference finals.

Young Bird was making all defensive teams because his help defense was very good. Kevin Willis and Ralph Sampson were too big for Bird but they were not normal power forwards. Barkley was too fast for Bird who was beginning to get slower from age. I don’t remember any other power forwards having success against pre old injured crippled Bird in man to man defense.

Dantley made all defenders look stupid. I wonder if Dantley made Paul Pressey look stupid. I don’t think I ever watched Dantley vs Pressey.

McHale was playing while injured with a broken foot in the 1987 Eastern conference Finals. Bird getting some minutes on Dantley was probably due to McHale being injured. Dantley was not the Typical type that gave Bird problems with an outside shot and speed drive. Dantley got the defender leaning the wrong ways and then shot through the gap or jumped into the defender to pick up the foul call. Bird was normally good vs skill and cleverness but Dantley was the ultimate skill and cleverness small forward.

My Celtic fan fantasy would be be replacing Maxwell with a fusion best of Maxwell, Wedman, ML Carr, Len Bias and Reggie Lewis player who never gets injured in 1985 and never gets traded for Bill Walton. McHale and Kite could handle back up center as they did in 1984 so Walton is not needed. The need was for a small forward not a back up center.

My hybrid best of Maxwell, Bias, Wedman Carr and Lewsis player would be guarding Dantley rather than Bird or McHale with a broken foot. 1987 KC Jones played his starters 40 minutes per game instead of developing a bench. I would have played Darren Daye more. Daye was not going to be able to guard Dantley but I would have put Daye on Dantley some.

[Statlanta]

Harden over Embiid.

But either way I'm going with the Original 5 because they don't get injured(besides Bird).

Embiid, Durant and Curry sounds like an injury waiting to happen if the game gets close.