Where does Jokic’s 2023 season rank among all time peaks?

[70sFan]

How is GOAT Jokic looking now?

Like an all-time great player facing extremely good defensive team with his best teammate having a horrible series?

Definitely a top 20 player performance.

This season doesn't hurt Jokic's standings all-time, only a fool thinks so.

[Heej]

Like an all-time great player facing extremely good defensive team with his best teammate having a horrible series?

Definitely a top 20 player performance.

This season doesn't hurt Jokic's standings all-time, only a fool thinks so.

I think this season can both be an overall positive to his resume and a negative to his GOAT argument trajectory. Gotta say man this guy is the best box score stuffer I've seen. Even in truly low impact games his box numbers are always gonna be resilient due to low difficulty assists on DHOs and his monopoly on the glass

[OhayoKD]

Definitely a top 20 player performance.

This season doesn't hurt Jokic's standings all-time, only a fool thinks so.

I think this season can both be an overall positive to his resume and a negative to his GOAT argument trajectory. Gotta say man this guy is the best box score stuffer I've seen. Even in truly low impact games his box numbers are always gonna be resilient due to low difficulty assists on DHOs and his monopoly on the glass

It would be nice if there was standardized tracking of stuff like # of defenders taken out so we could grade creation qualitatively and not just in terms of volume. Jokic's assists total overstates his actual value as a playmaker. If we are going to devalue "rondo" and "stockton" assists, we have to be fair and devalue when Jokic makes those types of assists too.

[Heej]

This season doesn't hurt Jokic's standings all-time, only a fool thinks so.

I think this season can both be an overall positive to his resume and a negative to his GOAT argument trajectory. Gotta say man this guy is the best box score stuffer I've seen. Even in truly low impact games his box numbers are always gonna be resilient due to low difficulty assists on DHOs and his monopoly on the glass

It would be nice if there was standardized tracking of stuff like # of defenders taken out so we could grade creation qualitatively and not just in terms of volume. Jokic's assists total overstates his actual value as a playmaker. If we are going to devalue "rondo" and "stockton" assists, we have to be fair and devalue when Jokic makes those types of assists too.

Jokic's wide body as a screener definitely provides surplus value compared to most centers but I definitely agree that a good portion of his production simply stems from system assists off DHOs that average bigs can replicate. Of course he does passes that no one can replicate, but unfortunately even those can get schemed away to an extent by the Ham defense.

[70sFan]

Definitely a top 20 player performance.

This season doesn't hurt Jokic's standings all-time, only a fool thinks so.

I think this season can both be an overall positive to his resume and a negative to his GOAT argument trajectory. Gotta say man this guy is the best box score stuffer I've seen. Even in truly low impact games his box numbers are always gonna be resilient due to low difficulty assists on DHOs and his monopoly on the glass

I don't think Jokic is even close to the GOAT discussion for now, you need way more than an outstanding peak to reach that level. If he manages to maintain similarly excellent level of play for the next decade and probably win a few more titles (or at least give us a much bigger sample of great postseason play), then I doubt this season will be a big black mark on his trajectory. Realistically speaking, he faced an all-time great defensive team with very little support from his best teammate (to say the least) and he still managed to be extremely good for the majority of the series.

About boxscore stuffing - maybe and I get what you mean, but at the same time his monopoly on the glass isn't really empty - I was very impressed with his control of the boards last game until the end of the 4th for example, even with the loss. The biggest thing with him is that he's one of the most well-rounded offensive players ever, so his boxscore numbers will always be insane, but his defense won't be captured by that boxscore and I don't think he's so far ahead of any other offensive anchor in history to put him at the top.

We have seen here that he also has some limitations regarding rim pressure and ball-handling (the same as any other center in the history, just on a lesser scale). It will be interesting to see Minny defense against Luka, who is a much different offensive player overall.

[70sFan]

Of course he does passes that no one can replicate, but unfortunately even those can get schemed away to an extent by the Ham defense.

I mean, can't that be said about every playmaker in the league history - especially when their teammates don't make outside shots on consistent basis?

[Heej]

This season doesn't hurt Jokic's standings all-time, only a fool thinks so.

I think this season can both be an overall positive to his resume and a negative to his GOAT argument trajectory. Gotta say man this guy is the best box score stuffer I've seen. Even in truly low impact games his box numbers are always gonna be resilient due to low difficulty assists on DHOs and his monopoly on the glass

I don't think Jokic is even close to the GOAT discussion for now, you need way more than an outstanding peak to reach that level. If he manages to maintain similarly excellent level of play for the next decade and probably win a few more titles (or at least give us a much bigger sample of great postseason play), then I doubt this season will be a big black mark on his trajectory. Realistically speaking, he faced an all-time great defensive team with very little support from his best teammate (to say the least) and he still managed to be extremely good for the majority of the series.

About boxscore stuffing - maybe and I get what you mean, but at the same time his monopoly on the glass isn't really empty - I was very impressed with his control of the boards last game until the end of the 4th for example, even with the loss. The biggest thing with him is that he's one of the most well-rounded offensive players ever, so his boxscore numbers will always be insane, but his defense won't be captured by that boxscore and I don't think he's so far ahead of any other offensive anchor in history to put him at the top.

We have seen here that he also has some limitations regarding rim pressure and ball-handling (the same as any other center in the history, just on a lesser scale). It will be interesting to see Minny defense against Luka, who is a much different offensive player overall.

Yeah I think what I really came away with from this series is there are very few people ever that can be considered unsolvable on defense. And right now Jokic isn't that guy just yet. I suspect Luka could be one of those guys that earns that distinction, but I'll wait to see what he does against Minny off the ball once they inevitably swarm it out of his hands.

[Heej]

Of course he does passes that no one can replicate, but unfortunately even those can get schemed away to an extent by the Ham defense.

I mean, can't that be said about every playmaker in the league history - especially when their teammates don't make outside shots on consistent basis?

Sure but I think some truly unsolvable guys like Magic, Curry, and LeBron all had counters once they got swarmed out of their preferred spots. For Curry he immediately flows into his nasty off-ball movement game, while Magic and LeBron would lean on a combination of duck-ins into quick mid post isos or spot up shooting (LeBron also has savvy cutting like Curry that he can leverage).

With Jokic when he can't get his post game going he floats into DHOs and trying to crush on the glass. It's still effective but it's missing a certain baseline level of creation that an elite offensive engine possesses when things grind to a halt.

[Colbinii]

Of course he does passes that no one can replicate, but unfortunately even those can get schemed away to an extent by the Ham defense.

I mean, can't that be said about every playmaker in the league history - especially when their teammates don't make outside shots on consistent basis?

Yes and No.

I want to preface this by saying I'm not in the camp that Jokic is some non-ATG offensive engine. I think he is as special as it gets for a player and in a class of his own as an offensive piece for a center.

LeBron James became essentially "unguardable" once he fully fleshed out his post-game and foot work. At that point, he really didn't have any weaknesses and the defenses would try their best to live with the worst possible outcome, which in simple terms often times was either a LeBron post-up or a drive and kick to an open shooter.

I have Magic in the late 1980s/early 1990s at that level and Nash from 2005-2010 to be at that level as well, obviously with different skill-sets.

I think Jokic is almost there, he can certainly get there and I would be surprised if he didn't get there. There is a good chance this Minnesota team is simply the GOAT modern-defense, with incredible ball pressure backed up by GOAT level rim protection and size 2-5.

I actually don't consider this series poor in any way for Jokic offensively. I think his lack of rim protection/deterrence was something we all need to say "Yeah, his 2023 run was easy defensively and he doesn't have the ability to disrupt or deter an offense". That's fine, and when we look at Minnesota's offense as a whole there are some clear question marks, but Minnesota's offense in the post-season has been, for the most part, exceptional.

[capfan33]

I think this season can both be an overall positive to his resume and a negative to his GOAT argument trajectory. Gotta say man this guy is the best box score stuffer I've seen. Even in truly low impact games his box numbers are always gonna be resilient due to low difficulty assists on DHOs and his monopoly on the glass

I don't think Jokic is even close to the GOAT discussion for now, you need way more than an outstanding peak to reach that level. If he manages to maintain similarly excellent level of play for the next decade and probably win a few more titles (or at least give us a much bigger sample of great postseason play), then I doubt this season will be a big black mark on his trajectory. Realistically speaking, he faced an all-time great defensive team with very little support from his best teammate (to say the least) and he still managed to be extremely good for the majority of the series.

About boxscore stuffing - maybe and I get what you mean, but at the same time his monopoly on the glass isn't really empty - I was very impressed with his control of the boards last game until the end of the 4th for example, even with the loss. The biggest thing with him is that he's one of the most well-rounded offensive players ever, so his boxscore numbers will always be insane, but his defense won't be captured by that boxscore and I don't think he's so far ahead of any other offensive anchor in history to put him at the top.

We have seen here that he also has some limitations regarding rim pressure and ball-handling (the same as any other center in the history, just on a lesser scale). It will be interesting to see Minny defense against Luka, who is a much different offensive player overall.

Yeah I think what I really came away with from this series is there are very few people ever that can be considered unsolvable on defense. And right now Jokic isn't that guy just yet. I suspect Luka could be one of those guys that earns that distinction, but I'll wait to see what he does against Minny off the ball once they inevitably swarm it out of his hands.

Think this is also a good example of the evolution and advancement of the game, its much harder to stand out and be truly unsolvable with all the info and talent available.

[One_and_Done]

Like an all-time great player facing extremely good defensive team with his best teammate having a horrible series?

Definitely a top 20 player performance.

This season doesn't hurt Jokic's standings all-time, only a fool thinks so.

So if he'd won it would have helped, but if he loses it means nothing. Nice work if you can get it. Jokic losing when he's supposed to win is a useful data point actually.

[eminence]

My peak tiers. Chronological order within tiers. HM to Mikan who would probably be my #1 with consistent criteria, but I find him near impossible to compare.

Tier 1 (1): LeBron James

Tier 2 (5): Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett

Tier 3 (7): Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Stephen Curry, Nikola Jokic

Tier 4 (9): Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Julius Erving, Bill Walton, David Robinson, Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, Dirk Nowitzki, Giannis Antetokounmpo

Tier 5 (12): Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Draymond Green, James Harden, Kawhi Leonard, Joel Embiid

Voted top 10 here, as I think I prefer him over Bird/Hakeem/Shaq/maybe Curry, which would put him 9-10 for me.

Where I was last year, think I'd shade lower on Jokic now, though still in that 3rd tier. Would switch my vote from Top 10 to Top 15.

[70sFan]

Definitely a top 20 player performance.

This season doesn't hurt Jokic's standings all-time, only a fool thinks so.

So if he'd won it would have helped, but if he loses it means nothing. Nice work if you can get it. Jokic losing when he's supposed to win is a useful data point actually.

Please, learn to read my posts instead of projecting your ideas on me. I have never said that Jokic winning the last game would have helped him at all without better level of play. Can you at least try to be intelectually honest?

[DorianRo]

Top 15-20. Lots of guys with better peaks than Joker. He had a great season though. Can't rank him too high though if he can't beat any teams with 50 wins or more LOL

Greatest Peaks are MJ, Shaq, Bird (Pre back injury), Kareem , and maybe Lebron or Kobe.

[ShotCreator]

This season doesn't hurt Jokic's standings all-time, only a fool thinks so.

I think this season can both be an overall positive to his resume and a negative to his GOAT argument trajectory. Gotta say man this guy is the best box score stuffer I've seen. Even in truly low impact games his box numbers are always gonna be resilient due to low difficulty assists on DHOs and his monopoly on the glass

It would be nice if there was standardized tracking of stuff like # of defenders taken out so we could grade creation qualitatively and not just in terms of volume. Jokic's assists total overstates his actual value as a playmaker. If we are going to devalue "rondo" and "stockton" assists, we have to be fair and devalue when Jokic makes those types of assists too.

Every lead playmaker has those vanilla with no effort given assists, but you'd be shocked at how much it disrupts an offense to not even have a guy willing to just pass to people for those seemingly low quality assists. Making the right play isn't actually all that easy and fundamental for a lot of the league. And being good enough to warrant having the ball enough to get those assists is not regular, which is why every top playmaker has those.

Jokic has a lot of gravity off screens, and gravity in general off-ball. Probably the most of it I've seen for someone with his passing load. Denver gets a lot of advantages off seemingly basic play actions like a DHO because of this. The #1 assist rate team in the NBA the past 4 seasons. And 1 and a half of those seasons they didn't have Jamal Murray.

Jokic has the most free flowing play style of any lead playmaker I've ever seen other than Larry Bird. So while there's vanilla actions, he's also empowering guys to be able to play as unpredictably as you can possibly play on and off ball.

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm not really down on Jokic based on this result. Could he have been a bit better? Yes he definitely could have as could his teammates who I think deserve 70% of the blame but at the end of the day 2 things come to mind:
1. Minnesota is a very good team. Some people are saying how Denver was hugely favored over them as though they were some run of the mill 5-8 seed which is very disingenuous. They are the favorites it won it all now I would say and are very deep with a near superstar in the making as their go to guy.
2. Being repeat champs is always harder. Shorter offseason, less hunger and all of that. I think part of Denver's issues this playoffs stems from that. We got used to seeing GS and LeBron do it but no team has gone b2b in finals since 2019.

[ty 4191]

Please, learn to read my posts instead of projecting your ideas on me. I have never said that Jokic winning the last game would have helped him at all without better level of play. Can you at least try to be intelectually honest?

What are your thoughts on best ever 3 or 4 year offensive peak, 70's?

How many players, period, have had a 4 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!

Updated 5/24/24:

Consider that in the past 341 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.6/12.3/8.6 on +8.7 Relative True Shooting% (rTS%) (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.6/12.3/8.6 in ANY SINGLE 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.6 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for nearly 4 full seasons, including the playoffs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.7 PER across the last 341 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and LeBron James.

2. His BPM the last 4 full seasons is 12.3, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 5 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .656 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .365 from three point range on very high volume for a center (3.2/game).

Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

[BroKamina]

Offensively I do believe he has an argument as a top 4-7 ish peak. GOAT seems very funny given his situation of perfection and his failure to lead an offense against this wolves team, imagine peak Jordan, second stint cavs Lebron, Magic Earvin Johnson, any of those guys having teams at their offensive apexes who just simply gave up a 20 point lead at home in the second half of a game 7 because they couldn’t create anything, despite their co star being the biggest reason to go up 20? With a team that fits so well…

Even curry who is a bit more stoppable I couldn’t see THAT happening. Nash?

Jokic may have the best regular season offensive peak ever when you take out Magic, Nash, and Curry, although this matters little practically and he’s on a team where his impact is inflated and his weaknesses are deflated… I guess I could see him over nash just from more reliable scoring prowess, no argument over curry or magic though

Jordan I would think is better, probably over regular season Lebron on offense though, although that’s not that insane since Lebrons such a playoff monster. If you have 2009-2014 lebron true modern spacing though Jokic simply wouldn’t compare

[OhayoKD]

Offensively I do believe he has an argument as a top 4-7 ish peak. GOAT seems very funny given his situation of perfection and his failure to lead an offense against this wolves team, imagine peak Jordan, second stint cavs Lebron, Magic Earvin Johnson, any of those guys having teams at their offensive apexes who just simply gave up a 20 point lead at home in the second half of a game 7 because they couldn’t create anything, despite their co star being the biggest reason to go up 20? With a team that fits so well…

Even curry who is a bit more stoppable I couldn’t see THAT happening. Nash?

Steph's 2016 game 7 was definitely worse and also a situation where his teammate was the main reason they had a lead

[BroKamina]

I think this season can both be an overall positive to his resume and a negative to his GOAT argument trajectory. Gotta say man this guy is the best box score stuffer I've seen. Even in truly low impact games his box numbers are always gonna be resilient due to low difficulty assists on DHOs and his monopoly on the glass

It would be nice if there was standardized tracking of stuff like # of defenders taken out so we could grade creation qualitatively and not just in terms of volume. Jokic's assists total overstates his actual value as a playmaker. If we are going to devalue "rondo" and "stockton" assists, we have to be fair and devalue when Jokic makes those types of assists too.

Every lead playmaker has those vanilla with no effort given assists, but you'd be shocked at how much it disrupts an offense to not even have a guy willing to just pass to people for those seemingly low quality assists. Making the right play isn't actually all that easy and fundamental for a lot of the league. And being good enough to warrant having the ball enough to get those assists is not regular, which is why every top playmaker has those.

Jokic has a lot of gravity off screens, and gravity in general off-ball. Probably the most of it I've seen for someone with his passing load. Denver gets a lot of advantages off seemingly basic play actions like a DHO because of this. The #1 assist rate team in the NBA the past 4 seasons. And 1 and a half of those seasons they didn't have Jamal Murray.

Jokic has the most free flowing play style of any lead playmaker I've ever seen other than Larry Bird. So while there's vanilla actions, he's also empowering guys to be able to play as unpredictably as you can possibly play on and off ball.

Denver gets advantages off the DHO because Jokic is a fat man that can set a screen, jamal Murray is good at basketball and doesn’t force it in DHO situations, and Aaron Gordan should have two dunk contest titles.

This is like saying Draymond has incredible gravity, some incredibly vague and indirect statements here that read as volume without substance